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Yeah, I thought it was just Kelvin debris. It could just as easily be bits of the Narada, but we never really got a good look at the bits there and the section seemed just like the rest of the ship when Spock went flying through it. No apparent signs of damage.

That and the smaller fleet getting destroyed, the Klingon fleet being destroyed, and whatever was around Vulcan getting destroyed with no apparent damage to the Narada.

Still, the cut scene should have been added, or dialog added to Kirk's attempts to convince Spock to chase after the Narada. If he had mentioned reports about how, after the Kelvin rammed it, the Narada seemed dead in the water, thus giving them a chance to stop it (or stop it long enough for the rest of the fleet to catch up) it would have strengthened his (still suicidal) position. Hell, Spock could have countered with how getting the rest of the fleet would give them even better odds.

I guess the writers were also going for Spock being so emotionally distraught that he was just blindly following Pike's last orders to him about meeting up with the fleet.

Also, this little exchange ties in with the whole KM scene earlier; playing by-the-books works less well than cheating (time traveler giving future knowledge), and such.

I wonder if the fleet being present in the L-System doing SOMETHING is relevant? It seems that the plot is predicated on the vast majority of Starfleet being engaged somewhere (I guess by Klingon manouvring) and unavailable. Maybe they had indistinct reports of some giant ship in Klingon space and this was a national emergency?

It's possible they intercepted the messages about their fleet getting obliterated and Starfleet was preparing a response to this new, unknown threat, setting their own fleet up near the most obvious entrance to their territory. The Narada could have (due to superior speed or some such) got by any monitoring stations set up along the border, until they managed to get into Vulcan's orbit.

It's possible they did work out some deal with the Romulan Empire and ducked through their territory. But that's all entirely speculation.

Stark wrote:I wonder if the fleet being present in the L-System doing SOMETHING is relevant? It seems that the plot is predicated on the vast majority of Starfleet being engaged somewhere (I guess by Klingon manouvring) and unavailable. Maybe they had indistinct reports of some giant ship in Klingon space and this was a national emergency?

You could infer that since the Klingons were obviously shuffling ships around, the Feds were on higher alert, in case this was a prelude to some kind of action. So their main forces were deployed to forward positions. Then, Uhura decodes a FTL distress call from the annihilated Klingon Fleet. In the (day? two days? week?) or so before Vulcan, they perhaps decided it was safer to still watch the Klingons or wherever that crisis was that needed the main fleet or couldn't recall them any quicker.

If Starfleet is an humanitarian armada, perhaps they were hoping to make a big display of helping the Klingons recover survivors, in order to help relations?

RE: the damage (or lack) to the Narada, I think that may be why the added the bit to the Extra Bonus Plot Comic "Countdown" about the ship actually being able to repair itself.

I think it still holds together without knowledge of the cut plotline or the comic. I rather assumed when watching the film that Nero & company had gotten into all manner of misadventures just trying to eat and maintain their ship...possibly even stashing the Narada somewhere and working as mercenaries. They obviously did some technobabble math to figure out that Spock would be spit out at that spot in 25 years, and it seems they had time in that interim to design a delivery system for the RM once they got it.

I didn't really have a problem with implying that much story when watching the film. Even Nero's ear-bite could have happened any time in those 25 years. The biggest mystery is why he would have tangled with that many Klingons.

The Narada disappearing for 25 years wasn't that difficult to swallow. It was just that the film makers pretty much made it's encounters with any other ship incredibly one-sided. I can't imagine all those 47 ships the Klingons had were trash, and the Kelvin didn't do anything noticeable to the ship until perhaps the ramming. Never mind that it took apart the dozen or so Starfleet ships sent to aid Vulcan in less than 10 minutes (or however long it took for the Enterprise to catch up).

I know it was an attempt to build up the danger the Narada posed, but it (for me) went too far in that direction. Nothing stood any kind of chance until Spock's weird-ass ship blew off the mining chain and blew a hole in the landing bay door.

The ship could self-repair? Huh. Would have been nice for them to mention that. That ties back into the point I made earlier; if you have to read a whole bunch of errata to make the film work then (for me) the film failed.

Stark wrote:Ships fleeing Earth = lol.

My, what an astoundingly thought out rebuttal. That certainly put me in my place.

Stealing arguments from others made after I responded to you is pretty hilarious, though; Anguirius and Erik are able to discuss these plot elements without getting all butthurt like you. Poor widdle womulan!

If I "stole" someone else's arguments it was unintentional, and if you would point out what I allegedly "stole," I would be happy to edit my posts to give credit where it is due, even though I don't remember reading the posts in question, in which case I did not knowingly steal their arguments.

Of course, if you feel I have violated the plagerism rule, you're also welcome to put your money where your mouth is and use the report button instead of playing mod. Or you can shut your mouth and stop making accusations you can't back up.

You continue to miss the point that I'm talking about a scene written different to accentuate the reasons these two men made their decisions. It's not my fault they cut out the 'Narada crippled' thing from the movie so you lose.

I didn't miss that you want the scene written differently for dramatic reasons. I also agree that the scene should have been written differently. Which doesn't change the fact that you've said a lot of other stupid things in this thread.

As for the "Narada crippled" being cut, I didn't know that was ever in the film. Nor do I see how it changes a single point I have made. Kirk had a plan, Spock was not a coward, Spock was not nessissarily portrayed as rational in the scene to which you refer, Earth should not have been abandoned if the Enterprise was the only ship that could reach it in time, we have no clear knowledge of how well the Federation fleet would have done against the Narada due to iggnorence of the fleet's strength, some chance of saving Earth was better than none.

How are any of the above disproved by the "Narada crippled" being cut, or is there some other claim I made that somehow is?

Everyone else knows what I'm talking about and can reply in a cogent fashion. maybe you're just dumb?

I wasn't last time I checked. And at least I try for a rebuttal instead of simply brushing off points with random irrelevant insults.

Man, you really can't handle thought experiences or the language of drama, can you? Retreating IS more sensible in every way BUT saving Earth,

More sensible in every way except the overwelmingly most important one, then.

If you had a chance to save a million lives at a risk to yourself, and ran away, I suppose it would help you sleep at night to tell yourself that your decission was "more sensible in every way but saving those million lives."

My problem is they both look dumb and the scene is offensive, as everyone but you understands. If either of them had a more rational argument than 'chase him' or 'no run' the scene and drama would have been improved.

I agree that the character's motives could have been better presented. I have never said it was a great scene. I don't have to love the scene to disagree with some of the specific points you made. Though I feel that your suggested changes would probably still result in one or both looking very stupid (or worse, in Spock's case, a callous bastard who just writes off a planet).

And the basic choices were "chase him" or "run." The arguments for either could have been better presented, but those were the two main options. And if the Enterprise was the only ship that could reach Earth in time, then going after Nero was probably the right choice. If the fleet could make it in time, then Kirk was a fool and a jackass and I will gladly concede it right now, as I would have at any earlier point in this discussion.

Sorry, coordinating with the fleet does indeed increase the chances of any plan working (aside from the Plot Magic plan Kirk didn't know about), so Spock is actually right.

Not if the fleet can't get there in time. Though apparently you don't feel the need to address that point.

Even after you stole Anguirius's point, after the Kelvin Nero isn't going to hold back on crippled ships again and it's not necessary that it will work.

Again, if I stole anything it was unintentional and if I knew what it is I had "stolen," I would gladly edit my post to give credit where it is due.

Likewise, however, if you are accusing me of violating the plagerism rule you can either put your money where your mouth is and report it, with evidence, or you can shut the fuck up.

Movie shows everyone fighting Narada dying and never shows Narada damaged. The ship is depicted as nigh-invincible. Not my fault.

Still doesn't change the fact that we have no knowledge of the Federation fleet's strength. But knowing what they were facing, you'd think they'd send something pretty damn impressive.

Oh jesus christ.

Is that supposed to be a rebuttal? Or are you hoping that Jesus will come down and post for you? Because if this is the best you can do then that's about the best chance you've got.

EXACTLY. The scene makes it clear that Kirk being a headstrong, no-plan cuntrag IS THE BEST CORRECT AWESOME LEADER and Spock playing the odds and hedging his bets for the best outcome IS A FILTHY EMOTIONAL HOBGOBLIN. That's why it fails. That's my whole damn point! By the book = LOL WRONG! Cheating = BEST EVA! Regualtions = BAD AND STIFLE COMMAND!! Jesus christ!

I was responding to your claim that the scene portrayed Spock as "RATIONAL AND WRONG," in all-caps, when it is not evident to me that it was portraying him as rational at all. Now you claim that it was portraying him as emotional and theirfor bad. Do you not even know what it is you're complaining about? Or are you just dishonest?

Leaving aside the fact that Spock had no more plan than Kirk, and that the "by the book" choice probably was the wrong one in that situation for reasons I have abundently layed out and which you have not yet bothered to adequately refute.

That said, once again, I agree the scene is flawed. And you're probably right about the "by the book=bad" message, weather or not that was explicitely intended by the film makers. Then again, you could criticize a lot of the original Star Trek on the exact same grounds.

Thanks for admitting you're arguing with me, even though you agree with me, because you either don't understand what I'm saying or are irrational.

Thanks for deliberately missinterpreting what I said, or did you miss the point when I said that I can agree the scene is flawed while still disagreeing with some of the other points that you made?

Sorry I hurt your feelings nerd. Thanks for the irrational personal attack proving your real agenda, though.

What "real agenda?" Disagreeing with you that Kirk had no plan, Earth should have been told to go fuck itself, and Spock was a coward? Well then, I guess, yes.

Oh, and you attacking me for being a nerd is laughbly pathetic. I have as much reason to call you a nerd as the other way round (not that I view it as an insult), and you are taking this to the level of playground bullying. I would say that you have the mind of a child, but that would be unfair to a large percentage of the global population.

Sorry I hurt your feelings nerd.

How small would I have to be to have my feelings hurt by an insult that is completely irrational, based in nothing I actually said, and is so utterly inane and detatched from the actualy conversation that it is laughable?

Your point was basically "OMG he talked about writing decisions, he must love the movie." Or something. I mean, what the fuck?

That you defend your prior idiocy with another baseless and substancelss insult only makes it more pathetic, and more obvious that you're little but a troll who happens to be a tad smarter than the rest.

It can't. Ignore the stupid comic. It can eat my dick. Borg tech my anus.

We've seen how the Narada fights, and it doesn't even really make sense it could kill those ships in the 2-3 minutes the Enterprise was behind (especially at much longer range which would boost point defence effectiveness). The emerge-into-debris scene just said 'ps Narada is invincible' (frankly, they killed a bunch of ships faster than the killed Kelvin and took far less damage, so Nero clearly learned to be more conservative after Kelvin rammed them).

It can't. Ignore the stupid comic. It can eat my dick. Borg tech my anus.

We've seen how the Narada fights, and it doesn't even really make sense it could kill those ships in the 2-3 minutes the Enterprise was behind (especially at much longer range which would boost point defence effectiveness). The emerge-into-debris scene just said 'ps Narada is invincible' (frankly, they killed a bunch of ships faster than the killed Kelvin and took far less damage, so Nero clearly learned to be more conservative after Kelvin rammed them).

Yeah, true. Especially since it was demonstrated later that the Enterprise's PDS could stop the incoming missiles pretty well, especially since they were coming in from the side instead of head-on.

I still don't get why a mining vessel was apparently so well armed, anyway, especially since all it had were missiles. It just baffles me in general.

Stark wrote:It can't. Ignore the stupid comic. It can eat my dick. Borg tech my anus.

We've seen how the Narada fights, and it doesn't even really make sense it could kill those ships in the 2-3 minutes the Enterprise was behind (especially at much longer range which would boost point defence effectiveness). The emerge-into-debris scene just said 'ps Narada is invincible' (frankly, they killed a bunch of ships faster than the killed Kelvin and took far less damage, so Nero clearly learned to be more conservative after Kelvin rammed them).

Admittedly, the Narada arrived with a bit of confusion, having been chasing after USS Spinnytop. Then, it fires one missile at first, then a weak handful which mess up Kelvin. Presumably since the crew was confused, wondering where Spock was and asking for the date. Kelvin was presumably quite close to the ship, which let it actually get off that ram attack. And to be honest, without hearing of any Klingon capture subplot, I figured the Narada was floating around, hiding for 25 years repairing it's massive hulk with a very tiny crew and waiting for Spock.

Later, at the Klingon battle and at Vulcan, since Narada could detect oncoming ships, she hung out and blew them away with her superior weapons at conditions of her choosing, with a crew ready for battle.

The mining vessel could have picked up boatloads of whatever future missile launchers after Romulus exploded and there was chaos or something at military posts. I figured the reason they were easy to pick off chasing Spock's little spinnymobile was because in that scene, they didn't split into all those little sub-missiles prior to attack.

I thought all the Narada's weapons were MIRVs - against Kelvin and the shuttles they all seemed to break into smaller bombs, not just the first ones.

Distance to the ship is worthless, because ships can emerge from warp wherever they want (including inside an atmosphere), so any attacking Klingons could have dropped out directly behind Narada, at very close range, or whatever.

Frankly from the attack on Kelvin, Narada's weapons just don't look that impressive. They appear to be boxes that are just bolted to the hull and open to release torpedoes, so they're probably not top-of-the-line 24th century stuff.

Since the Narada's command area looked identical and Nero was FUCKING SNOOZING when they said 'it's time', it seemed to me that they'd just been sitting around, doing weights, drawing landscapes and shit. No prompts about what they'd been doing.

Really? The impression I got regarding the sequence of events leading up to Spock and Nero getting thrown through time was that the sun went up and Spock went out, but missed his opportunity to stop it before it hit Romulus, then Nero chased him down immediately just as Spock was deploying the bomb. Was there any indication that a significant amount of time passed for Nero's crew to pick up a bunch of military weapons and install the launcher?

True; Spock seemed to suggest he was intercepted by Nero almost immediately. But let's face it; Spock said OMG UNTHINKABLE OBJECT WITH FIXED KNOWN VELOCITY HIT ROMULUS BY SURPRISE SOMEHOW, which makes no goddamn sense.

Yeah ... it doesn't. I was just trying to go with the in-universe sequence of events.

Stark wrote:True; Spock seemed to suggest he was intercepted by Nero almost immediately. But let's face it; Spock said OMG UNTHINKABLE OBJECT WITH FIXED KNOWN VELOCITY HIT ROMULUS BY SURPRISE SOMEHOW, which makes no goddamn sense.

It was my assumption that they knew the weird space object was going to explode soon. But it exploded early or something, and that's what happened.

TBH, I would also have been a lot happier if they just said Romulus' sun was going to explode, and the Red Matter would stop it, instead of being vague about a 'galaxy threatening' event.

I thought all the Narada's weapons were MIRVs - against Kelvin and the shuttles they all seemed to break into smaller bombs, not just the first ones.

Distance to the ship is worthless, because ships can emerge from warp wherever they want (including inside an atmosphere), so any attacking Klingons could have dropped out directly behind Narada, at very close range, or whatever.

Frankly from the attack on Kelvin, Narada's weapons just don't look that impressive. They appear to be boxes that are just bolted to the hull and open to release torpedoes, so they're probably not top-of-the-line 24th century stuff.

Since the Narada's command area looked identical and Nero was FUCKING SNOOZING when they said 'it's time', it seemed to me that they'd just been sitting around, doing weights, drawing landscapes and shit. No prompts about what they'd been doing.
I thought all the Narada's weapons were MIRVs - against Kelvin and the shuttles they all seemed to break into smaller bombs, not just the first ones.

Distance to the ship is worthless, because ships can emerge from warp wherever they want (including inside an atmosphere), so any attacking Klingons could have dropped out directly behind Narada, at very close range, or whatever.

Frankly from the attack on Kelvin, Narada's weapons just don't look that impressive. They appear to be boxes that are just bolted to the hull and open to release torpedoes, so they're probably not top-of-the-line 24th century stuff.

Since the Narada's command area looked identical and Nero was FUCKING SNOOZING when they said 'it's time', it seemed to me that they'd just been sitting around, doing weights, drawing landscapes and shit. No prompts about what they'd been doing.

I figured that the Narada still had the upper hand in positioning during Vulcan, since the Federation had no idea he was there, while Nero detected the inbounds at range. Perhaps the vector meant some predictable zone of entry. Also, the Warp Drives in this new trek seem to require a notably longer period of powering up before doing anything, which could also be a factor in tactical maneuvers with the things. No idea on the Klingon situation of course, since we have no details on what went down.

Nephtys wrote:

Stark wrote:True; Spock seemed to suggest he was intercepted by Nero almost immediately. But let's face it; Spock said OMG UNTHINKABLE OBJECT WITH FIXED KNOWN VELOCITY HIT ROMULUS BY SURPRISE SOMEHOW, which makes no goddamn sense.

It was my assumption that they knew the weird space object was going to explode soon. But it exploded early or something, and that's what happened.

TBH, I would also have been a lot happier if they just said Romulus' sun was going to explode, and the Red Matter would stop it, instead of being vague about a 'galaxy threatening' event.

In another thread, I wrote:

me wrote:You know, I just watched it again and even though I remember the threatening the galaxy line in the first viewing, I didn't hear it that time. Mental blocking? In any case, did they explicitly say the supernova itself was threatening the galaxy, or that the removal of Romulus from the balance of power would fuck everyone's shit up jihad style?

Never mind that it took apart the dozen or so Starfleet ships sent to aid Vulcan in less than 10 minutes (or however long it took for the Enterprise to catch up).

Seven ships, and they were not running at red alert.

As for the supernova, yes it's fucktarded but the idea is that it somehow is sending out FTL blasts intermittently. Bad Astronomy had a good point when they said it should have been a gamma ray burst. Or any number of things really: I think the filmmakers decided to limit themselves to astronomical terms that even seven year olds and Sarah Palin would understand.

Don't forget Spock's custom ship (which they build especially, thus is directly responsible for the loss of Romulus) is just there to avoid any connection with the TNG-verse. We know you can just throw red matter out the door and it works (this is what Spock did) so the ship exists to allow them to avoid known starship features and to bring a giant ball of red matter for Nero to steal. Imagine if he'd just borrowed the E-E like everyone else.

Stark wrote:Don't forget Spock's custom ship (which they build especially, thus is directly responsible for the loss of Romulus) is just there to avoid any connection with the TNG-verse. We know you can just throw red matter out the door and it works (this is what Spock did) so the ship exists to allow them to avoid known starship features and to bring a giant ball of red matter for Nero to steal. Imagine if he'd just borrowed the E-E like everyone else.

Hrm. It could have been built (again, more speculation!) to contain the Red Matter. That giant ball thing was stable in the Spockmobile as far as anyone could tell. It could be that the little whirlyship has various containment functions that perhaps, were somehow impractical aboard another ship. It'd be idiotic if a can of strawberry jello and a shuttlecraft could have saved Romulus, but they decided to spend more taxpayer money to build a shuttle with a novelty rotating wheel for kicks.

I thought rotating bits were a motif of Vulcan ships in general? Otherwise, you could well be correct, since the Romulans kept it in there (although they likely barely understood it's operation).

As for the "Narada crippled" being cut, I didn't know that was ever in the film. Nor do I see how it changes a single point I have made. Kirk had a plan, Spock was not a coward, Spock was not nessissarily portrayed as rational in the scene to which you refer, Earth should not have been abandoned if the Enterprise was the only ship that could reach it in time, we have no clear knowledge of how well the Federation fleet would have done against the Narada due to iggnorence of the fleet's strength, some chance of saving Earth was better than none.

Of course, for Spock to be logical, the writers themselves must be capable of writing a logical scene.

Which reminds me, has there ever been a movie that is logical from the start to finish?

Maybe it's just me, but young Kirk came across as less annoying or idiotic than most hot-headed independent rebel heroes in fiction. I think partly it's because he was calm without being too smug, the script basically made him right most of the time, and his relationship with authority wasn't completely negative (Pike actually heeds his warnings, and Kirk actually follows old Spock's commands).

Regarding "Red Matter", I thought it was so devoid of technobabble to count as a superhero comic book plot element. Like something out of Superman. A very retro sort of unobtanium.

Erik von Nein wrote:

Stark wrote:Flash and I noticed that the shakey-cam was doing the nBSG 'wobble when pointing at two men standing still who are talking' thing. Kirk is talking - whoops the camera slipped! Now Spock replies - and the camera fell again! At least it was still IN FOCUS, though.

Yeah, it was in focus, and every five seconds there was a lens flare. WITH THEM STANDING ON THE BRIDGE TALKING. How the Hell was that bridge lit? Big honking lights at every possible angle?

I know, shakey-cam is supposed to make you feel there, but when you're standing around watching people talk how often does your head rock back and forth?

Perhaps they used Torgo-Cam. (bonus points to whoever gets the reference).
On a serious note, While the shaky cam wasn't too bad, after watching it the second time the lens flares are really glaring (pun somewhat intended) and really out of place.

I hope for the next movie they lower those considerably.