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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Even more damning considering the MESS led the "restoration of Sirnorth".

Chief Executive of the Provisional Coalition Authority Committee(which is multinational, consisting of appointtees from the OD, Tian Xia, Shinra, one from OICAS/Augustine and the other 4 from the Sirnothi Liberation Army). We considered that putting a member of the minority recently gassed to hell by the Cortes regime made sense.

Stas,

As it happens, I never denied that the MESS leadership knew of Shep's existence. I denied that there was enough of the senior Shepistani leadership that would be able to corroborate your story left alive.

Second, Heralclius also knows(from that meeting) that we recovered a CSR cruise missile. If we want to get into the "he-said vs. he said" game....well, I got a bunch of other world leaders who can verify the cruise missile thing.

Third, No goddamn recording of the meeting, it was all in person. In fact, RI just said on AIM "The meeting wasn't recorded".

Fourth, good luck finding any alleged Biological weapons program taking place in the half of the continent that has been sealed off from the outside world for very, very, good reasons.

Fifth, The Shepistani SAC, at leats the long range bomber force(in this case the JB-89) did not take part in a WMD attack on Astaria. A FORMER SAC JB-89 pilot, now flying for the Old Dominion GSC, launched the nuclear attack on Nexus City, yes.

(6a)Sirnoth is not my country, as it's administered by an international committee.
(6b)The Sirnothi Military is not the Old Dominion Military
(6c)And in any event, it is not outside the realm of possibility that in the chaos following the fall of Shepistan Hoare managed to forge a new identity for himself to present to Dominion authorities. Shocking.
(6d)Hoare isn't in on the program, he just thinks it's Al Sheppard. Which a bunch of people also think, as you have just demonstrated.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: "Why certainly comrade. Here's the meeting minutes and some files. In fact, sorry about not telling you after I left the MESS. You know, what stays in the MESS stays there and the same with CATO. Somehow some people never thought the same..."

You going to MENTION THE PART where a CSR cruise missile was discovered, which explained how the primitive Astarian BW program amanged to kill 120million plus Shepistanis, 60 million East Shepistanis, and three quarters of a million Dominos?

Lonestar wrote:You going to MENTION THE PART where a CSR cruise missile was discovered, which explained how the primitive Astarian BW program amanged to kill 120million plus Shepistanis, 60 million East Shepistanis, and three quarters of a million Dominos?

It was CSR cruise missile strikes which did far more damage than his primitive balloons. I still can't believe how retarded veg's attack was.

And you know what, we could deny it anyway. Yes we'd basically be calling Heraclius a liar. And yes it's gonna send MESS/CATO relations down the shitter. Not like Stanislav throwing around these accusations was going to help that out anyway.

And in the end it would be his word against ours. And we still have the issue of plausibility I raised earlier: why the fuck would any MESS leader put Sheppard in charge of anything? When there's plenty of other people in our own countries and who we didn't fight a war against to take that spot? It simply makes no sense to do it.

MKSheppard wrote:
It was CSR cruise missile strikes which did far more damage than his primitive balloons. I still can't believe how retarded veg's attack was.

That would be great:

"Let's sit down and tally up the death toll...oh look, Stas has killed ONE HUNDRED MILLION MORE people than Shep did."

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:"Why certainly comrade. Here's the meeting minutes and some files. In fact, sorry about not telling you after I left the MESS. You know, what stays in the MESS stays there and the same with CATO. Somehow some people never thought the same..."

And assuming it was ever acknowledged to be true, which I doubt it would be...this makes you guilty of conspiracy. Or at the least an accessory after the fact. Good job convicting yourself.

RogueIce wrote:When there's plenty of other people in our own countries and who we didn't fight a war against to take that spot? It simply makes no sense to do it.

I do find it somewhat amusing, the lengths you're going to simply to paint it as making no sense--and yet you did it anyway because... well because you can, it would seem...

But it makes no sense so we can't prove that you did it!

RogueIce wrote:And assuming it was ever acknowledged to be true, which I doubt it would be...this makes you guilty of conspiracy. Or at the least an accessory after the fact. Good job convicting yourself.

And you'll do what, kill Heraclius after you booted him out?

Good job, MESS! *diabolic laughter*

As for the CSR cruise missiles, guess what, like I said, I already have the necessary options and files prepared which would demonstrate the bullshit of your accusations shall you dare to lay them against comrade Stanislav

Guess what they will show? That the Kh-101s were a part of the Shepistani-CSR Su-34 deal back in the day, and they were just a part of the Shepistani arsenal. After the Biowar, many Sheppo units went rogue and teh place was in total chaos.

You won't prove anything, while I'll have the correctly adjusted arms sale records brought up to demonstrate this is a bullshit sensation. End of story. Of course, you can come public with Sheppard being "Sheppard", but then your PR will collapse so badly no one will believe any of your ridiculous post-facto CSR accusations

Cornered and touchdown, boo.

I'm hitting the pit. I actually need to get up for work in 4 hours...Goddamnit Stas.

Ryan Thunder wrote:I do find it somewhat amusing, the lengths you're going to simply to paint it as making no sense--and yet you did it anyway because... well because you can, it would seem...

But it makes no sense so we can't prove that you did it!

Isn't that a real bitch?

Stas Bush wrote:

RogueIce wrote:And assuming it was ever acknowledged to be true, which I doubt it would be...this makes you guilty of conspiracy. Or at the least an accessory after the fact. Good job convicting yourself.

And you'll do what, kill Heraclius after you booted him out?

Good job, MESS! *diabolic laughter*

We wouldn't have to do anything. Heraclius is going to cause enough problems for himself by admitting he was part of the coverup for however many years it was without us needing to lift a finger. Unless you really think the populace/legislature/etc of Byzantium is gonna go, "Oh well, he participated in the coverup of these serious and shocking acts. No big deal!" As well as general world opinion.

I don't like the direction this is heading. This is getting to the point where it's going to devolve into a MESS vs. CATO OOC flame war over the believability of the charges and what result Stas' accusations should have.

Also, I think the point is that if the charges are believed, it's not going to do Heraclius' image any wonders for not saying a thing until the accusation was already out there.

Though why are the other MESS players and leaders - in-character - willing to tolerate the Old Dominion's sanctuary of Shepistani war-criminals and Sheppard himself (do they KNOW that Rhee Ann is actually Al Sheppard himself)?

I mean, it's like:

Arik/Rufus/Wilkens: "Hey, it's totally alright, Lord Fairfax. We won't MAKE A PEEP AT ALL about the fact that your government has willingly embraced these subhuman mass-murdering monsters into your military-industrial complex and are now proceeding to englobe an entire continent's worth of archipelagic crater islands!"

I don't know, but that seems kind of odd and out-of-character. Especially if the MESSheads are the Goody Two Shoes that they love to claim themselves to be.

(at least the ones who aren't Loinstar or Beowulf, who make no pretentions of their dickeries and Mandates of Heaven)

(What's with Rhee Ann anyway?)

RogueIce wrote:

Ryan Thunder wrote:I do find it somewhat amusing, the lengths you're going to simply to paint it as making no sense--and yet you did it anyway because... well because you can, it would seem...

But it makes no sense so we can't prove that you did it!

Isn't that a real bitch?

I don't think you quite caught the tone of that, but I'll laugh with you anyway.

For the record, Ryan is staying as far the fuck away from this as he possibly can. Because, really, this can only end in tears.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: Arik/Rufus/Wilkens: "Hey, it's totally alright, Lord Fairfax. We won't MAKE A PEEP AT ALL about the fact that your government has willingly embraced these subhuman mass-murdering monsters into your military-industrial complex and are now proceeding to englobe an entire continent's worth of archipelagic crater islands!"

Goddamnit Shroom, I'm trying to get some shuteye!

To repeat: Name a single "subhuman mass murdering monster"(besides shep) that I have in my employ! If we're playing the "Shepistani Heavy Bomber Pilots who did NOT use WMD on Astaria are guilty of war crimes" game, then so is Stas for Bombing the fuck out of Astaria's navy in a war of aggression.

Steve wrote:Also, I think the point is that if the charges are believed, it's not going to do Heraclius' image any wonders for not saying a thing until the accusation was already out there.

Heraclius image in the MESS is that of a traitor, and his image in the CATO is that of an respect ally, who had been a pillar of the organization.

And Heraclius being silent about Hitler Mark II being kept without a trial in the Old Dominion is just pebbles of guilt compared to the guilt the MESS will face. Unless, of course, the world hasn't completely lost it's sense of responsibility for one's actions.

Also, the PR war is devious. It's totally game rule playing. And I won't be demanding Sheppard's extradition or the pariah-ing of the Old Dominion. The populations of the world's nations will be freaking screaming out loud for it if they still have a shred of humanity left.

Lonestar wrote:so is Stas for Bombing the fuck out of Astaria's navy in a war of aggression.

I didn't declare war on Astaria, and destroying it's military assets was made under a simple anti-human traficcking campaign. That's not the same as killing their entire population.

But sure, go ahead with the accusations and see what happens.

Steve wrote:I don't like the direction this is heading. This is getting to the point where it's going to devolve into a MESS vs. CATO OOC flame war over the believability of the charges and what result Stas' accusations should have.

Also, I think the point is that if the charges are believed, it's not going to do Heraclius' image any wonders for not saying a thing until the accusation was already out there.

On the other hand, what wonders does it do to Rufus/Arik/Wilken's image when they don't utter a peep at all when their Old Dominion buddies start incorporating Shepistani warcriminals and rock-chuckers into their military and government - while outright grabbing the entire Impact Crater Archipelago without even the slightest hint of cover-story or deniability, while doing things as blatant as nuking Sirnothi places?

Sure, a lot of people might be polarized at Comrade Stas' statements and may think that Heraclius is a total dick due to these recent events - but nonetheless, the mass public at large won't think that guys like Rufus or Arik or Wilkens shit out puppies or kittens or rainbows.

Loinstar wrote:To repeat: Name a single "subhuman mass murdering monster"(besides shep) that I have in my employ! If we're playing the "Shepistani Heavy Bomber Pilots who did NOT use WMD on Astaria are guilty of war crimes" game, then so is Stas for Bombing the fuck out of Astaria's navy in a war of aggression.

But how about the dude who is now your apparent heterosexual life partner and de facto bossman of Sirnoth?!

I mean, shit, what would your MESS buddies THINK when they saw Shep's megalomaniacal mug at Shroom's funeral?

Assuming that they believe you.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I mean, shit, what would your MESS buddies THINK when they saw Shep's megalomaniacal mug at Shroom's funeral?

I stil don't believe Wilkens just let it slide when he apparently was in complete knowledge of the situation. His intelligence infiltrates OD, discovers the equivalent of Hitler and leaves it as a useful tool for political pressure on the OD? That's IT?!!!



That's why Comrade Stas comes out with the accusations. Imperialists everywhere!!

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Though why are the other MESS players and leaders - in-character - willing to tolerate the Old Dominion's sanctuary of Shepistani war-criminals and Sheppard himself (do they KNOW that Rhee Ann is actually Al Sheppard himself)?

I mean, it's like:

Arik/Rufus/Wilkens: "Hey, it's totally alright, Lord Fairfax. We won't MAKE A PEEP AT ALL about the fact that your government has willingly embraced these subhuman mass-murdering monsters into your military-industrial complex and are now proceeding to englobe an entire continent's worth of archipelagic crater islands!"

Well there is the OOC thing that a few of us know Shep, either via RL, AIM, or just the board. So despite it all there may still be that. And at any rate, Lonestar does have a pretty good way of controlling him.

It's probably not something we like, but it's one of those things we just dealt with. Because we know Lonestar and Shep were friends IRL so keeping him alive in secret would be somewhat understandable. As to putting him in charge...well what were you going to do? Call him out? Have it look like we helped put Shep back in power? And as I mentioned, Lonestar can control him through the cancer.

I don't know, but that seems kind of odd and out-of-character. Especially if the MESSheads are the Goody Two Shoes that they love to claim themselves to be.

I don't claim to be a paragon of virtue. But we all have our deep, dark secrets. It makes things more interesting.

(What's with Rhee Ann anyway?)

You'll have to ask him that. I don't think he minds the personal details being out there, but I can't recall him saying it out loud and I don't want to presume.

Ryan Thunder wrote:I don't think you quite caught the tone of that, but I'll laugh with you anyway.

Oh, I got your tone. But as I did say above, it makes a certain kind of sense, via IC and (mostly) OOC reasons (in this case, OOC from the people of the world, but still a reality for us...we didn't totally stop being RogueIce, Stas Bush, Ryan Thunder, MKSheppard, Lonestar, etc when we became leaders).

Stas Bush wrote:And Heraclius being silent about Hitler Mark II being kept without a trial in the Old Dominion is just pebbles of guilt compared to the guilt the MESS will face. Unless, of course, the world hasn't completely lost it's sense of responsibility for one's actions.

He's known Shep was alive and hidden as long as the rest of us. He's known about Rhee Ahn since the day the announcement was made. And he still said nothing, until now. How does this make him any less guilty than what you're accusing us of?

Assuming everybody believes him. But due to the acrimonious way his departure from the MESS turned out...yeah there are people who won't believe it. Sucks but there it is.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:On the other hand, what wonders does it do to Rufus/Arik/Wilken's image when they don't utter a peep at all when their Old Dominion buddies start incorporating Shepistani warcriminals and rock-chuckers into their military and government - while outright grabbing the entire Impact Crater Archipelago without even the slightest hint of cover-story or deniability, while doing things as blatant as nuking Sirnothi places?

Are they going to believe we would do something like this?

As for nuking Sirnothi military facilities...so? Nukes aren't really the same kind of boogeyman on this world that they are on ours, remember. And we did justify it, because of the use of chemical weapons by the Cortes regime against civilians (whereas the OD nukes targeted military facilities).

There probably were protests, but those have come and gone. And there's no proof Rhee Ahn had anything to do with that anyway (I don't think it's even likely he did in the first place).

I mean, shit, what would your MESS buddies THINK when they saw Shep's megalomaniacal mug at Shroom's funeral?

Probably nothing worse than when we found out he was alive, or when we saw the announcement of Rhee Ahn assuming his post.

Steve wrote:Assuming that they believe you.

But Stephen Garrett DOES believe!

@ RogueIce:

Oh, okay. So you guys aren't really totally fine with Loinstar being best buddies and keeping alive a murderous monster who's killed binillions of people, but still it's NO BIGGIE, rite?

EDIT:

No moral outrage, no conflict of morality, no nothing? Man, you really are as cold as ice, Rogue.

RogueIce wrote:As to putting him in charge...well what were you going to do? Call him out? Have it look like we helped put Shep back in power? And as I mentioned, Lonestar can control him through the cancer.

Well then you'll have a question time since this thing is rapidly going public.

RogueIce wrote:And he still said nothing, until now. How does this make him any less guilty than what you're accusing us of?

There's an easy explanation: Byzantium had a mandatory period of maintaining classified information classified, but that period has passed. He was simply obliging with the rules. As for you all, you'll continue hiding and denying it until kingdom come because you're active parties to that.

Also, one could spin it that way that Byzantium totally didn't like that shit and started preparing to leave the MESS upon discovering it, to make sure the classified documents get the light of public review later after their term expires or they MAKE it expire.

More positive PR for Byzantium the Great Uncoverer of War Crimes, more dung for the OD.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:No moral outrage, no conflict of morality, no nothing? Man, you really are as cold as ice, Rogue.

Oh, Rufus Shinra probably doesn't like it. But would RogueIce understand why Lonestar wouldn't let MKSheppard die? Yes, I would. Insofar as putting him in power, yeah I can see the reasons for it as well. I may not like it, but then the devil you know... And I am pretty well assured he can't go crazy on the WMDs again (this in fact I did bring up with Lonestar on AIM when he was first telling me about it).

Stas Bush wrote:Well then you'll have a question time since this thing is rapidly going public.

"That is an absurd accusation. We have conducted DNA tests and we are absolutely positive that Rhee Ahn Sheppard is the brother of Al Sheppard, and not the former General himself."

That'd pretty much be the answer I give if anybody asks me. Otherwise it's "not worth commenting on" insofar as statements are concerned.

Stas Bush wrote:There's an easy explanation: Byzantium had a mandatory period of maintaining classified information classified, but that period has passed. He was simply obliging with the rules. As for you all, you'll continue hiding and denying it until kingdom come because you're active parties to that.

Also, one could spin it that way that Byzantium totally didn't like that shit and started preparing to leave the MESS upon discovering it, to make sure the classified documents get the light of public review later after their term expires or they MAKE it expire.

More positive PR for Byzantium the Great Uncoverer of War Crimes, more dung for the OD.

So...he was following orders? If this was such a great injustice, why wouldn't he come forward immediately? What was the MESS going to do, put him on trial? No. So why wait all this time? Besides, it's not like he left the MESS immediately after finding out about it. And according to all the drama and tensions at the time, it was a sudden thing, not an act that had been long in the making.

But in the end Stas, you don't have any hard proof. And if Heraclius does say anything, which isn't in his best interests IMO (but Fin can be the judge of that) it'll basically be his and your word against the MESS leaders. That's what it'll boil down to. And people will believe whoever they want to believe. And you'll have sent MESS/CATO relations down the tiolet, when they were in the process of picking back up a bit.

Is this really worth it because of what? You ticked at Lonestar OOC because of fringe media taking shots at the UCSR?

RogueIce wrote:"That is an absurd accusation. We have conducted DNA tests and we are absolutely positive that Rhee Ahn Sheppard is the brother of Al Sheppard, and not the former General himself."

Sure, why not. I didn't expect anything else.

RogueIce wrote:So...he was following orders? If this was such a great injustice, why wouldn't he come forward immediately? What was the MESS going to do, put him on trial? No. So why wait all this time? Besides, it's not like he left the MESS immediately after finding out about it. And according to all the drama and tensions at the time, it was a sudden thing, not an act that had been long in the making.

Here's the very logical line to a common observer:
1) he uncovers the evidence of Shep being contained by the OD; however, this is just containment.
2) he makes moves to leave the MESS
3) the MESS notes that and tries to pre-empt this with reducing his status to lower his intel access
4) he leaves MESS
5) there is now a "Rhe Ann" Sheppard sibling who is installed as a MESS puppet in Sirnoth. Now things are taking an ugly turn...
6) Heraclius orders to tweak the declassification laws
7) Legal process is due and takes some time. Eventually, he goes public with it, coordinating this public revelation with me

Sounds pretty good from a PR point.

RogueIce wrote:What was the MESS going to do, put him on trial?

Find a former Shepistani who would claim that the MESS or rather OD intelligence, which perfidiously infiltrated MESS Armed Forces in many nations, went on a killing spree to hide the facts of war criminal collaboration. In fact, I'll buy some hiding sheppo goon from the IRT and pay him obscene amounts of money to make such confessions.

This will look even better: Heraclius was not sure he could trust MESS-infiltrated agencies; he had to have a thorough re-check before he thought there is no risk of ... adverse consequences.

And I will also possibly pay phong to cast his opinion behind me and Fingolfin, which will be... interesting to say the least.

RogueIce wrote:...it'll basically be his and your word against the MESS leaders

So be it. You will see whose words you will hear afterwards. I'm sure not a few powers will have something to say.

RogueIce wrote:And you'll have sent MESS/CATO relations down the tiolet

On an official level, you'll find it hard to blame anything on us. You'll have just sour grapes to eat. Meanwhile, harboring war criminals is ground for trade embargoes and economic warfare. Hello, comrade.

And while that will do no wonders to MESS-CATO relations, that will be a complete bomb to Lonestar and his little pet imperium that he has built up carving up Shep's lands and NPCs in manufactured wars. I think the MESS will have to re-think of it's relations with the Old Dominion. Harsh, maybe. True, as well.

Oh, and anyone who really thinks Shepistani SAC or ISI members who didn't personally participate in the attack Astaria weren't a party to Shepistan's war plan, fully in knowledge of it and still serving Shepistan... is delusional. If Lonestar goes public with claims that he has "evidence" of "innocence" of Shepistani SAC or ISI servicemen, I believe that would just cause an enormous outrage on the world political scene.

And so Lelouch's words nonlinearly close the final chapter of the life and times of Prime Minister Shroom. By all means, feel free to resume the CATO-MESS bickering; I'll just sit here and watch and OH SHIT C.C. KALLEN AND SHIRLEY ARE ABOUT TO DELIVER ANY MOMENT NOW

I'll write up that post sometime within the next few days.

Stas Bush wrote: On an official level, you'll find it hard to blame anything on us. You'll have just sour grapes to eat. Meanwhile, harboring war criminals is ground for trade embargoes and economic warfare. Hello, comrade.

Okay, so you're anticipating worldwide embargoes against four Imperiums, a supercharged Tsardom on the verge of being an Imperium, a Kingdom, and a near-Principality (assuming it includes Vineyards)?

For a lot of countries, that's something called "economic suicide". Not gonna happen. You can try and demand CATO signatories impose such, but if they don't you've just strained your own alliance for nothing, and if they do they'll probably hurt themselves far more.