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Eternal_Freedom wrote:Funnily enough that was exactly my thinking, especially as it would be the first war Orion fought in, so the scientific, rational populace object to spending valuable Orion lives for a moral point. It would lead to a change in policy; from occupying the colonies to eliminating them. Capture them, deport the civilians and raze the colonies to the ground.

Fits in with my "Eternal War" rhetoric.

Drones also gives me an advantage; my shipyards aren't as large as yours, so our carriers aren't as big. However, with UCAV's being smaller and more expendable than manned fighters we can carry more of them. I'm also thinking that in our naval combat we pioneered anti-ship missiles, like those radar-guided bombs the real-life Germans used (the Fritz-X was it? something like that) and we then developed from there.

Skywalker_T-65 wrote:I would hope they're viable since Arcadia has nuclear powered Battleships

Thanas wrote:

Eternal_Freedom wrote:That's a good point. Then again, I think I got the wrong term. I'm thinking of remote-controlled drones rather than true UCAVs.

Same problem - too slow, not enough firepower etc. Heck, we are doing this in 2000 and even now in 2014 there is no viable combat drone - not even with over a decade of war funding pushing for it. Drones are just not good for fighting a war against somebody who can contest airspace at all. If Pakistan was willing to do they could probably stop every US drone with their outdated air force.

Thanas wrote:Good point, but combat-ready drones are a thing of the future no matter whether it is 2000 or 2014.

I'll post my orbat in a few hours if nobody wants to talk about Rheinland economy anymore. But again, my orbat is hugely detailed and should not be taken as a requirement - last thing I would want is push players away because they do not want to spend hours formulting an Orbat. Nor should anyone suffer negatives because he does not want to do so.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Incidentally, I'm thinking Orion may need a larger population give the size of our island. My initially stated 40 million seems a bit slim.

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:SOP for SDN Worlds 1 and 2 was simply "use the current RL year as the in-game starting year" (in both of those games' cases, 2008). It worked perfectly well there, and I don't see why we shouldn't do the same here. The start date is an ultimately minor issue, though, so I'll be fine with whatever the mods declare for the most part.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Thanas wrote:Good point, but combat-ready drones are a thing of the future no matter whether it is 2000 or 2014.

I'll post my orbat in a few hours if nobody wants to talk about Rheinland economy anymore. But again, my orbat is hugely detailed and should not be taken as a requirement - last thing I would want is push players away because they do not want to spend hours formulting an Orbat. Nor should anyone suffer negatives because he does not want to do so.

My problem is that I'm still working rather hard for the next three weeks, at which point I suddenly have vastly more free time on my hands. I'd rather postpone any detailed nation-building until then.

Umerian military hardware is not cutting edge, although they're at least trying to develop cutting edge aerospace capabilities so they can develop things like a fifth-generation fighter.

RogueIce wrote:EDIT: Besides, I'd hate for Thanas to be forced to redo his OOB, if it's even half as detailed as what he's posted thus far.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Funnily enough that was exactly my thinking, especially as it would be the first war Orion fought in, so the scientific, rational populace object to spending valuable Orion lives for a moral point. It would lead to a change in policy; from occupying the colonies to eliminating them. Capture them, deport the civilians and raze the colonies to the ground.

Fits in with my "Eternal War" rhetoric.

Drones also gives me an advantage; my shipyards aren't as large as yours, so our carriers aren't as big. However, with UCAV's being smaller and more expendable than manned fighters we can carry more of them. I'm also thinking that in our naval combat we pioneered anti-ship missiles, like those radar-guided bombs the real-life Germans used (the Fritz-X was it? something like that) and we then developed from there.

Exactly what do the Orion islanders do about land warfare? Aerial drone technology became at least vaguely viable starting around twenty years ago, though you can expect to lose a LOT of drones if you fight anyone with a competent air defense network. But ground combat drones are still kind of in infancy in real life.

Skywalker_T-65 wrote:I would hope they're viable since Arcadia has nuclear powered Battleships

Do yours carry missiles like the 1980s-vintage refits of the Iowa-class?

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Incidentally, I'm thinking Orion may need a larger population give the size of our island. My initially stated 40 million seems a bit slim.

Not necessarily. Your island may well contain a lot of land that isn't particularly good for dense habitation due to all the mountains. Part of the question is, are you playing a 'Japan,' as in a country that you see as being one of the world's largest economies and therefore having a large population of 100 million or more? Or are you playing a nation that is intentionally not meant to be one of the Big Three in the whole world economically?

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A Brief History of the Orion Armed Forces wrote: The history of the Kingdom’s armed forces begins during the Kingdom Civil War. The Army coalesced from the various smaller forces maintained by the various Tribes, although the forces of the dissenting Tribes fought against them. The fight was long and hard, and went a long way towards convincing the Orion people that warfare was a pointless waste of life, knowledge and potential.

With the Kingdom being unified in the wake of the peace settlement and the Restoration of King James the First, it was decided that allowing the Tribes to maintain their own armies was a dangerous thing. The Army of Orion was formed by Royal Decree in 1876, drawing members from all Tribes but always trying to keep the relative proportions of each Tribe in a given unit the same, to prevent any seditious officers from building a personal following in the Regiments they commanded.

The Army itself, in its modern form, is based around the Regimental system. A soldier belongs to Regiment first and foremost, and good-natured rivalry is fierce. Many of the most respected Regiments can trace their history to Orion’s Colonial period; some can trace their lineage even further back. The oldest active unit is the Mintaka’s Own Regiment, which was originally formed as the King’s Bodyguard and was responsible for expelling the first Outlanders to land on Orion in 1556.

Whilst a Regiment is a soldier’s first commitment, there are also several distinct branches within the Army, known as Corps. These, such as the Royal Tank Corps, the Royal Guards and the Orion Engineers Corps serve as a soldier’s identity within the Army. Even today it is rare to see an Orion Engineer socialise with a Guardsman.

During the 1880’s, as the Kingdom stepped tentatively out onto the world stage, it became apparent that a Navy was required, to secure Orion’s shores and to protect its trade vessels. Thus, with the Naval Forces Decree of 1887, the Orion Navy was formed. Its initial charter was to have enough force to secure Orion’s shores against enemy attack at any time and to protect merchant shipping. Special provision was also included for the Navy to hunt down and destroy any pirates or slavers they encountered. Captains were given broad authority to carry out those orders, the famous 1901 story of the cruiser ONS Intrepid pursuing the pirate vessel Salamander halfway around the world is a case in point.

The Orion Navy was never on the cutting-edge of technology; no major innovations where created in its early history. Despite this, it remained abreast of advancements. It may not have been the first, but it was usually at least fifth to introduce some new technology, such as steam turbines for propulsion and the all-big-gun dreadnought. For most of this period, combat was mostly limited to small-scale skirmishes and anti-piracy efforts.

Orion may have lagged in technological development with their Navy, but air power was something wholly embraced by the Kingdom. The benefits of both civilian and military air power were quickly realised. The Royal Air Force was founded in 1912 with an initial strength of 120 warplanes. This quickly expanded as technology moved on and planes became more deadly.

The Kingdom’s quiet peacefulness was brought to an end in 1941. By this point, Britonia’s war with Rheinland had reached a new and horrific stage, with the bomber offensive causing untold damage that was seen throught the world thanks to the press. Orion would have declared war on Britonia in response to this senseless military act by mid-1942 at the latest if it hadn’t been for the infamous Jupiter Incident.

On August the 4th, 1941, the heavy cruiser ONS Jupiter was on patrol in international waters off the coast of Fortuna, a Britonian colony on the mainland when her lookouts spotted an old Britonian mine, which detonated as she turned away to avoid it. The explosion damaged her steering gear, keeping her heading straight for the Fortuna coast. She came to a stop two miles inside Fortunan waters. The Jupiter's Captain informed the Fortunan authorities who offered to assist her; however a Britonian destroyer had already spotted her. The destroyer apparently believed the damage to be fake and that this was an attack. The destroyer closed in on the Jupiter, whose crew was engaged in damage control and repairs and were not at action stations, launching a salvo of torpedos. Five of them struck the cruiser, breaking her into three pieces. She sunk in just three minutes, taking her entire crew of 734 sailors to the bottom.

However, she had managed to radio a message to Fleet Command before going under. Within six hours of the sinking Orion had declared war on Britonia and the Navy was instructed to avenge the Jupiter’s crew. Two days later, the attack submarine ONS Hunter torpedoed and sank the elderly Britonian dreadnought Conqueror. The war had begun.

Fortunately for Orion, Britonia could not dedicate many vessels to the distant conflict, making the contest much more even. Britonian forces consisted of a handful of modern cruisers and escorting destroyers, with the real heavy-hitters being 30 year old dreadnoughts sold to the colonies by Britonia. The naval war taught the Orion’s many lessons, chief amongst them that submarines and mines are the ultimate tool for denying an enemy access to an area. The Naval Air Arm, initially considered junior to the battleship sailors, came of age in the conflict, scoring key victories over the Britonian/Colonial fleet in the Orion Sea (the stretch of ocean separating Orion from the continent). The battleships, however, did not sit idly by. In a brutal night action in the Mintaka Straights, five modern Orion dreadnoughts engaged and destroyed seven old second-line Britonian battleships, losing two vessels in the process. The key to the battleship’s victory was their newly-developed radar-directed gunnery systems and an early computerised fire control system, letting them score hits in the night time while remaining unlit and undetected. Only in the last stage of the battle, when the Britonian’s closed the range to a mere 4,000 metres and used massed torpedo attacks did the Orions suffer losses.

Whilst the Navy had a good war, the army suffered. Their initial amphibious assault on Fortuna and its neighbours Marden and Underwood (colonies named, in true arrogant Britonian fashion, after their founders) was repelled by the local colonial forces and the half-dozen Regiments left to guard them. Losses were heavy and public opinion turned against further frontal assaults.

The next invasion attempt, after the combined Britonian and Colonial fleet had been finally destroyed at the Third Battle of the Orion Sea in early 1944, utilised the full might of the Orion Navy as support. A massive naval bombardment, lasting seven days, severely damaged the coastal defences whilst Naval Air Arm fighter-bombers struck targets further inland. Then, the bombardment ended. The Britonian Regiments rushed every man they had to secure a defence line twenty miles inland to prepare for the inevitable invasion attempt.

However, the Orion Armed Forces did not land in boats, not at first. They launched a massive simultaneous airborne assault on the colonial capitals. With no soldiers to garrison them the cities fell quickly, although paratrooper casualties were high. The garrison forces attempted to re-take the cities, but they were pulled in three directions and the massed Regiments of the Royal Tank Corps landed on the now undefended beaches behind them. The garrison Regiments were crushed in four days of vicious fighting. The three colonial governments formally surrendered in October 1944.

The question then arose of what to do with the colonies. The Orion people had little interest in annexing Outlanders, especially Outlanders connected to the infamous Bomber Offensive, and the expense required to repair the damage would be considerable. Whilst some called for all three colonies to be put to the sword, saner heads prevailed. It was decided to act mercifully, or at least, more mercifully than the Britonians had been to Rheinland. The military prisoners were executed as war criminals and the civilians were deported to neutral nations on the continent. Then, every trace of the colonies existence was destroyed.

The Britonian Empire made one last attempt to exact vengeance for their colonies in early 1945. Or rather, several other continental Britonian colonies did when they sent a squadron of old dreadnoughts, supported by a Nipponese task force containing three cruisers and one carrier, to attack Port Rigel, the Orion Navy’s main base. The RAF launched an attack using a new weapon, a radio-controlled flying bomb. The first three of these weapons struck the Nipponese carrier, blowing her to pieces. Deprived of air cover, the dreadnoughts and cruisers quickly succumbed to massed air attacks.

After the war, the Orion military continued to develop. The Navy initially retained four carriers and six dreadnought battleships, built shortly after the war, all of which had been modernised and kept in service as long as possible. However, by 1983 they were being phased out and replaced by three new, larger nuclear powered carriers and a large force of air-defence destroyers and cruisers, with additional anti-submarine frigates as a screening force.

By far the Navy’s strongest arm however is its submarine force. With a current strength of thirty-four nuclear powered attack submarines and twelve nuclear powered cruise missile boats, all of the most modern designs, the submarine force remains the premier striking force of the Navy.

Despite this strength, the Navy realises that it is not able to drive off a determined attacker. Consequently, a great emphasis is placed on mines. Rumours of “Orion’s Belt” have abounded in the press for the past twenty years, but details are sketchy at best.

What is not a rumour is Orion’s Shield, a massive belt of anti-aircraft missile batteries surrounding the island, with more sites inland. Every major government installation, from the Council building to the Royal Palace, from the Orion Institute to the nuclear reactors and desalinization plants are required to have at least one anti-aircraft SAM battery. The lynchpin of this system are the massive radars built at the summit of Mount Erebus, their great altitude and power allowing them to track all air traffic for hundreds of miles, providing ample early-warning. A large forces of AWACS aircraft are also maintained as a supplement to the ground stations, and serve to direct fighter patrols towards targets.

The RAF, remembering the success of the flying bombs against the Britonians, also maintain a large force of supersonic naval strike bombers, each capable of carrying up to three heavy ship-killing missiles, designed to skim the wavetops underneath a target’s radar cover before firing en masse to overwhelm a target’s defences.

The final branch of the Orion Armed Forces are the Orion Space Forces. Formed in 1960 as part of the space program, the OSF oversee all orbital launches and maintains a number of satellites, both photo-recon birds for intelligence work and oceanic radar-recon and thermal-imaging satellites for tracking ships at sea. The OSF also overseas space weapons systems, although these are all theoretical at present. The most well-developed are anti-satellite weapons designed to blind an enemy’s photo-recon assets, although some have begun to speculate about orbital weapons platforms. Whilst the concept is still under review, the prevailing opinion is that the systems are impractical.

Thanas wrote:The Naval warfare makes no sense, the Britonians would not risk their dreadnoughts after barely maintaining equality with Rheinland numbers. Certainly they would not send 11 of them when they only got an advantage of 9-11 throughout the whole war.

Really, I would appreciate if there was no great naval battles against Britonia at all as that makes Rheinland history completely impossible if Britonia/Nippon were fighting major battles somewhere else but did not use those forces to rescue their army trapped on the continent. I mean, how stupid would they have been to not do so, as those 11 ships would have guaranteed victory for them?

Oh and by 1945 Britonia's navy is already gone, their fleet (and Nippon's) having been nearly eradicated on 6th June 1944 by Rheinland carrier aviation and BBs. I wrote all about this here.

Thanas wrote:Might be better to have one of their colonial fleets be caught off in one of their colonies, composed of a few escort carriers/cruisers and a few old WWI-style dreadnoughts? THat would your navies still allow to get the experience without having to explain how modern ships did not take part in the battle of Britonia etc.

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Steve wrote:I would be willing to compromise up to 2005, but I really liked the idea of a 2000 start period because of those nice, round numbers, and the symbolism of the start of a new century and millennium.