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I sometimes wonder what it would be like to do an STGOD where you have to be an empire that someone else made up. After the OOBs are in, they're then randomly allocated.

Oh god, a disaster!

Yeah, methinks that anybody who drew up a grand power would be majorly pissed if they got some new fishes minor.

Just imagine...
Thirdfain with a humanistic, non-expansive group of tree-huggers

My STGOD 1 empire was a bunch of space hippies. Needless to say, I got curbstomped. Since then, I guess one would say I've learned my little lesson.

Matt Huang wrote:Yeah, methinks that anybody who drew up a grand power would be majorly pissed if they got some new fishes minor.

Well, the nation descriptions are a bit ambiguos about power. For example, my nation could easily be a major, and the Collective a regional, but neither would really work as a grand, and definitely not as a minor. Crobuzon could be any non-minor. Same for the Khar and Benefactors. Freehold, Hekartes, and Fala'un could really be anything. Avalonians wouldn't work as a minor or a grand, regional fits, but not as well as would major. Raveners really aren't viable as anything less than major, but one wonders about the repercussions of making a bunch of sadistic loons a grand power. Diem-noiy is clearly built to be a minor power, and it really wouldn't work as anything different. Silver Flame would do fine as a regional, but not anything larger. The space hippies (Gaian Compact) seem more suited to minor but regional is fine too. The newcomer, Kurak, can fit any non-grand, but they are admirably suited to being a regional.

It really is too bad that so many people that signed-up left. The power chart is somewhat unbalanced. Ideally, there would be a few Grands, a few more Majors, and a lot of Regionals and Minors. As it stands (people that have posted and appear to be interested in continued participation) we have three Grands, five Majors, four Regionals, and two Minors (one NPC'd). The Grand to Major ratio is good, the problem here is that we are short on Regionals. We currently have a 3-5-4-2 ratio. There are two Regionals that signed-up but never entered the game, and one that left, as well as two Minors that never entered either. If they all were playing we'd have a 3-5-7-4 ratio. Which I think works just fine. Of course, I am counting the two late comers as if they were in the game all along, but my point about slight imbalance still remains.

If it were up to me, I'd drop Fala'un and United Stations to Regional, while the Benefactors get downsized to Major. The Freehold need to remain a Grand because they are natural foil to Crobuzon, which cannot be dropped to Major because of that very large fleet deployment in Silver Flame space. Of course, I'm not expecting this to happen, just saying what I'd do if you all gave me the power to do it.

The only problem is that it's very rude to drop someone's point total unless your point expenditures are divisible by 10.

If I were to become a Regional or Grand or something, I'd have to rewrite my entire OOB from the ground up or else it would be out of balance. Not only would invidual fleet compositions become screwy by a scaledown, the Khar would have to rebalance the fleet build numbers according to their numerology and that would likely be impossible.

And we can't have that. Numerology is mandatory. It's one of the Khar's secret paths to victory.



EDIT- I just speed-read the thread to see what I've missed.

As far as I can tell:
=Crobuzon delivers the Imperial Smackdown to Silver Flame
=Mekidar Republic comes in and screws around a bit
=Silver Flame surrenders
=Mekidar Republic is all confused
=Pirates are inside my empire
Everything beyond then was sort of lost in a blur because of me channeling the Holy Fury of the Emperor while contemplating the above.

Is there anything else significant enough happening to you future slav- aquaintances?

MRDOD wrote:And we can't have that. Numerology is mandatory. It's one of the Khar's secret paths to victory.

That really is too bad, because I'm going to half-retract the Fala'un as a "drop to regional" candidate. We have five majors. The Hekartes cannot be changed because SirNitram started this STGOD and if he wants to be a Major, then by Karas (Mekidar deity) he gets to be Major. Dropping the US seems to be obvious for some reason. That leaves the AIs, Space Elves, and Space Fundamentalists. I'll admit to being biased in favor of MRDOD and Beowulf. That's why I picked the Fala'un earlier. The most logical pick are probably the Khar, but I'm really not sure.

Nonsense. We are destined to conquer you all. How can the Khar do this as a pissant little Regional power like the Mekidar?

Further, I'd say the Khar as a Major adds a lot of fun and unpredicability to the STGOD. You certainly can't count on the Khar to make a rational, sensible choice which will by nescessity introduce a lot of chaos and mayhem into even the simplest little thing.

MRDOD wrote:Nonsense. We are destined to conquer you all. How can the Khar do this as a pissant little Regional power like the Mekidar?

Further, I'd say the Khar as a Major adds a lot of fun and unpredicability to the STGOD. You certainly can't count on the Khar to make a rational, sensible choice which will by nescessity introduce a lot of chaos and mayhem into even the simplest little thing.

That is a good point, but we cannot deny the increased humour value of making the Khar's "We're gonna rule the Universe!" claim even more rediculous.

Adrian Laguna wrote:
That is a good point, but we cannot deny the increased humour value of making the Khar's "We're gonna rule the Universe!" claim even more rediculous.

Nah, I'd say as a Major it's thoroughly improbable but just likely enough if you're a small nation to make them a bit scary. As a Regional, who would take me seriously?

Although perhaps I am a bit biased in favor of Khar Universal Domination.

Actual Post-Worthy Material Within:

So my summary above really got everything? I'm suprised. Surely I missed some sort of detail that's important?

[Unfortunately, the Khar, due to a major administrative error, forgot to build any ships in the Month of April. The bureaucrat in charge of this was de-limbed, then forced to eat his own limbs for our amusement. That's worse for a Khar than a human too. Khar have the extra wing-stubs to eat, too. Oh, then we deep fried him in a mix of his own excrement, blood, and breaded chicken batter just to prove how much of a mistake that was to his sucessor at the job.

And executed the bureaucrat's whole family, too, in similarly overcomplicated, rather disgusting, and probably physically impossible ways. Just to be sure. After all, we're pretty pissed about this error. ]

Adrian Laguna wrote:

MRDOD wrote:And we can't have that. Numerology is mandatory. It's one of the Khar's secret paths to victory.

That really is too bad, because I'm going to half-retract the Fala'un as a "drop to regional" candidate. We have five majors. The Hekartes cannot be changed because SirNitram started this STGOD and if he wants to be a Major, then by Karas (Mekidar deity) he gets to be Major. Dropping the US seems to be obvious for some reason. That leaves the AIs, Space Elves, and Space Fundamentalists. I'll admit to being biased in favor of MRDOD and Beowulf. That's why I picked the Fala'un earlier. The most logical pick are probably the Khar, but I'm really not sure.

And since we won't do any "reassigning", a wonderful, pointless discussion.

Dahak wrote:And since we won't do any "reassigning", a wonderful, pointless discussion.

Aren't many of the discussion that go on in SDN inherently pointless? Though in this particular case, perhaps it was better suited to AIM.

Oh right, there is still that discussion about trade lanes. I suppose I could just shut up and concede, but I'll give it another go.

EDIT - Here it is:

Dahak wrote:Interdiction happens. By your logic, trade lanes and interdiction devices in Stars Wars shouldn't be useable or needful...

Tradelanes are needed because you can smash into things while in Hyperspace. As far as I know, the only type of interdiction in Star Wars is the "you can't enter/exit this system" type. Not the "lolz, we dropped you out of FTL in deep space" type.

Interdiction is a given in STGODs. Drives, any drive, can be interdicted. Saying that your drive could not be simply does not fly.
And trade lanes are an equally given in STGODs. Best to accept it and deal with it. Simply saying it is not so does not make it so.

Okay. I was just saying, a trade lane isn't needed when it does not matter what lays between start and destination. So long as you know where each point is located, navigational hazards in between the two are moot because they don't affect ships in transit (with the possible exeption of artificially enduced "drop out of FTL" fields).

EDIT - I'm refering to the "enter another dimension" type of FTL. Like the Warp in 40k (where nav-hazards are warp based and have little to do with realspace, with the exeption of the Eye), my Rip Drive, or the Subspace drive in Freespace.

Piracy happens. Without stations or protection, your trade will suffer. You can ask the mods, but I daresay that "invulnerable" trade won't fly here. So you either protect it one way or another, or...not.

Well, since we had one or two pirate powers originally, I thought there wouldn't be pirates unless they were player controlled. It really surprised me when you posted about one of your merchants getting piratwned.

You mention previous STGODs. I've not participated in them, and only read the last few pages of 2k5 (Corneria gets invaded, and the Three Sisters destroy a fleet). So anything that might have happened in them has little meaning to me.

Nah, pirate attacks on shipping are an STGOD given, particularly in post-apocolyptic games like this one. Along with that is the idea that space is hugely dangerous, full of "barbarian" nations, ancient AI-run killing machines, and regions of "polluted" space-time, impassible areas where ravening multidimensional nebulae envelope unwary ships, hurling them off-course or destroying them alltogether. Think WH40K distance space travel: unless you move in great numbers along pre-mapped (and sometimes torturous) routes, or with your own borders, you'd face serious attrition.

But that's just other STGOD's, it's up to the mods now, isn't it?

Adrian Laguna wrote:

Dahak wrote:Interdiction happens. By your logic, trade lanes and interdiction devices in Stars Wars shouldn't be useable or needful...

Tradelanes are needed because you can smash into things while in Hyperspace. As far as I know, the only type of interdiction in Star Wars is the "you can't enter/exit this system" type. Not the "lolz, we dropped you out of FTL in deep space" type.

We had plenty of that "drop out of FTL in deep space" in several parts of the SW EU. So there...

Interdiction is a given in STGODs. Drives, any drive, can be interdicted. Saying that your drive could not be simply does not fly.
And trade lanes are an equally given in STGODs. Best to accept it and deal with it. Simply saying it is not so does not make it so.

Okay. I was just saying, a trade lane isn't needed when it does not matter what lays between start and destination. So long as you know where each point is located, navigational hazards in between the two are moot because they don't affect ships in transit (with the possible exeption of artificially enduced "drop out of FTL" fields).

EDIT - I'm refering to the "enter another dimension" type of FTL. Like the Warp in 40k (where nav-hazards are warp based and have little to do with realspace, with the exeption of the Eye), my Rip Drive, or the Subspace drive in Freespace.

And whatever you call your drive, it will be able to be intercepted. You're not the first one to announce that your drive system is above any means of interception. And it never flies. As said, interception has always been a given...

Piracy happens. Without stations or protection, your trade will suffer. You can ask the mods, but I daresay that "invulnerable" trade won't fly here. So you either protect it one way or another, or...not.

Well, since we had one or two pirate powers originally, I thought there wouldn't be pirates unless they were player controlled. It really surprised me when you posted about one of your merchants getting piratwned.

"Piracy posts" are a very common form of posts in STGODs, either to start something bigger, or to have some fun. Pirates have always been a given, too. In one way, form, or shape.

You mention previous STGODs. I've not participated in them, and only read the last few pages of 2k5 (Corneria gets invaded, and the Three Sisters destroy a fleet). So anything that might have happened in them has little meaning to me.

Then you should ask, no? Or listen to those that have been in a few STGODs so far?

Thirdfain wrote:Nah, pirate attacks on shipping are an STGOD given, particularly in post-apocolyptic games like this one. Along with that is the idea that space is hugely dangerous, full of "barbarian" nations, ancient AI-run killing machines, and regions of "polluted" space-time, impassible areas where ravening multidimensional nebulae envelope unwary ships, hurling them off-course or destroying them alltogether. Think WH40K distance space travel: unless you move in great numbers along pre-mapped (and sometimes torturous) routes, or with your own borders, you'd face serious attrition.

The way this one is shapping-up is very tame in comparison to what you describe.

Dahak wrote:We had plenty of that "drop out of FTL in deep space" in several parts of the SW EU. So there...

"As far as I know."
I suppose this happens because navigational hazards force any ship that wishes to get anywhere in a space of time less than a week has to take a predictable path, due to aforementioned navigational hazards.

And whatever you call your drive, it will be able to be intercepted. You're not the first one to announce that your drive system is above any means of interception. And it never flies. As said, interception has always been a given...

I suppose I can deal with having to protect my own trade. But I really don't like combat (as in, between the warships of two nations) interdiction. I'd preffer it if you would have say, a hit & run attack where the attackers frantically try to avoid the enranged, and superior, defenders while the FTL drives warm-up.

"Piracy posts" are a very common form of posts in STGODs, either to start something bigger, or to have some fun. Pirates have always been a given, too. In one way, form, or shape.

I see.

Then you should ask, no? Or listen to those that have been in a few STGODs so far?

I don't feel the current STGOD should be bound by the way things were done before. Granted, if something worked fine before, then there aren't many reasons why it shouldn't be used, but that doesn't mean it has to.

The whole point of interceptable commerce is that it extends the playing field and widens the scope of strategy. In a world where, for whatever reasons, it's impossible to intercept shipping, then combat is going to tend towards major fleet engagements almost exclusively. Warships like cruisers and battlecruisers, not to mention lighter craft, become next to useless outside of whatever roles they have as battlefleet auxiliaries.

By opening up commerce to attack, then suddenly the capacity to wage unbalanced warfare becomes important. Smaller nations can stymie, if not necessarily outright defeat, larger powers through convoy raiding, "guerilla" warfare, and the hiring of privateers.

Making commerce untouchable en route basically makes warfare a game of battlefleet v. battlefleet. If that's what you want, then by all means, keep arguing for it. However, I myself am interested in allowing a variety of strategies to exsist, and besides, assymetrical space warfare is a hell of a lot of fun.

-edit- PS, let's get this hullabaloo over Talon worked out, ne?

Thirdfain wrote:Making commerce untouchable en route basically makes warfare a game of battlefleet v. battlefleet. If that's what you want, then by all means, keep arguing for it. However, I myself am interested in allowing a variety of strategies to exsist, and besides, assymetrical space warfare is a hell of a lot of fun.

I hadn't thought of it that way.

PS, let's get this hullabaloo over Talon worked out, ne?

Sure, expect a post within the next few hours. We could also get it worked-out faster through AIM.

I'd like to avoid having every second post be about some heroic one sided battle between someones battleships and random pirates. That being said, no convoy is immune to interception, we need to maintain the variety of strategic options.

Pirate posts are largely just masturbation, but sometimes they have a point- as the one recently posted by Dahak had (recognizing the difficulties involved in the Crobuzon/Falau'un relationship thanks to the huge distances involved.) Also, it's sometimes nice just to show off your new hardware and display how your military works.

On a totally unrelated note, I've been drawing and re-organizing my ship designs. The armament (secondary only, primary has not changed) on my capital ships is being reworked, to fit better with the point costs. The scale of construction has also been fairly drastically redone, in the end, the Pax Crobuzona won't be even 1.5 miles long- I found the length didn't jive with point value compared with the lightest vessels. Let's see if I can get my size-comp page up:

[/list]

These guys are too scale. (as is the Admiral Stevanaphulis battlecruiser I have posted, which is around .58 miles long) Each pixel, in paint, is about 3.1 meters.

Since we're on the topic of piracy and commerce, how exactly would corporate militias be handled? You know; small, private armies rased by trade guilds to protect their cargo.

Thirdfain wrote:Pirate posts are largely just masturbation, but sometimes they have a point- as the one recently posted by Dahak had (recognizing the difficulties involved in the Crobuzon/Falau'un relationship thanks to the huge distances involved.) Also, it's sometimes nice just to show off your new hardware and display how your military works.

That's fine, the odd one adds depth and exposition. When we have multiple pages in a row of pirates being vaped by someone's uber death beams it just makes me wish someone implimented a "both hands on the keyboard" rule for posting.

Matt Huang wrote:Since we're on the topic of piracy and commerce, how exactly would corporate militias be handled? You know; small, private armies rased by trade guilds to protect their cargo.

This can be tricky. Militia loyal to forces within your empire should really be part of your points value, as it represents your total offensive capacity, which you divide into whichever internal factions you see fit.

In my opinion, strapping the odd gun to a civilian freighter doesn't count, but don't expect it to last long against any craft with a declared value.

Opinions on how we could be doing things better are of course always welcome.

Oh yeah, that reminds me...

Thank you Faram

Thirdfain wrote:On a totally unrelated note, I've been drawing and re-organizing my ship designs. The armament (secondary only, primary has not changed) on my capital ships is being reworked, to fit better with the point costs. The scale of construction has also been fairly drastically redone, in the end, the Pax Crobuzona won't be even 1.5 miles long- I found the length didn't jive with point value compared with the lightest vessels. Let's see if I can get my size-comp page up:

*snip chart*

These guys are to scale. (as is the Admiral Stevanaphulis battlecruiser I have posted, which is around .58 miles long) Each pixel, in paint, is about 3.1 meters.

You've officialy inspired me to go back and revise the appearance of the LPG's navy. Spherical hulls are just such a bitch to do effectively in Paint, i'll be going for a more spindly, wasp-like look.