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Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-03-24 04:14pm
by Balrog
VT-16 wrote:The chairman of Pantora was a villain, yet he always tried to play by the Republic's rules, so he wasn't a traitor, just a fanatic.
On a side note, I did anyone else catch the Pantora senator among the hostages? Thought it was a nice touch.

Anyways, no doubt this was an inside job orchestrated by Palpatine; unless the bounty hunters just happened upon the one group of senators opposed to increasing the Chancellor's powers by sheer chance.

And did the blasters seem more powerful this episode? I don't recall them penetrating through bodies in previous episodes, regardless of any armoring.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-03-24 04:24pm
by Knife
Balrog wrote:
VT-16 wrote:The chairman of Pantora was a villain, yet he always tried to play by the Republic's rules, so he wasn't a traitor, just a fanatic.
On a side note, I did anyone else catch the Pantora senator among the hostages? Thought it was a nice touch.

Anyways, no doubt this was an inside job orchestrated by Palpatine; unless the bounty hunters just happened upon the one group of senators opposed to increasing the Chancellor's powers by sheer chance.

And did the blasters seem more powerful this episode? I don't recall them penetrating through bodies in previous episodes, regardless of any armoring.
.

I hope not. I get tired of the 'Palpatine orchestrates everything' thought lines. Hell, I'd be happy with a plot line that makes you think Palpy did something and then it gebacts revealed not only did he not do it, his plans got set back by them.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-03-24 05:05pm
by Balrog
Knife wrote:
Balrog wrote:
VT-16 wrote:The chairman of Pantora was a villain, yet he always tried to play by the Republic's rules, so he wasn't a traitor, just a fanatic.
On a side note, I did anyone else catch the Pantora senator among the hostages? Thought it was a nice touch.

Anyways, no doubt this was an inside job orchestrated by Palpatine; unless the bounty hunters just happened upon the one group of senators opposed to increasing the Chancellor's powers by sheer chance.

And did the blasters seem more powerful this episode? I don't recall them penetrating through bodies in previous episodes, regardless of any armoring.
.

I hope not. I get tired of the 'Palpatine orchestrates everything' thought lines. Hell, I'd be happy with a plot line that makes you think Palpy did something and then it gebacts revealed not only did he not do it, his plans got set back by them.
Yeah it gets overused, and I wouldn't mind seeing him get surprised and set back once in awhile, but this situation just seems too convenient for it to be otherwise. The bounty hunters just happen to time their attack when a group of senators opposed to Palpatine are meeting and take them hostage? I don't doubt some of the survivors are having second thoughts about opposing measures to increase safety, which would play right into his plans. Plus it would explain some of the lax security measures in the Senate.

canon/vs stats implications

Posted: 2009-03-24 06:30pm
by Kurgan
Some things have come up, like the series (beginning with the movie pilot) establishes that Jabba and the rest of the Hutts had first hand knowledge of the Jedi Knights, including Anakin Skywalker.

We see the apparent lack of capital ship shield interaction with physical impacts on ships...

The very different "ion cannon" weapon, and so forth.

It's unclear if Clonetrooper armor actually protects the user from vacuum, as Separatist forces are able to successfully kill ships full of Republic survivors simply by breaching the cockpit of a defeated vessel.

Apparently Yoda thinks Clones can have some knowledge of the Force and gives them a few basic lessons/philosophy.

Some "armored" native predators are naturally able to shrug off clone blaster fire (you know, the same blasters that can penetrate the carapaces of super battle droids).

Jedi suddenly stop wearing their headsets while in their Jedi fighters. Clones now wear sealed helmets while piloting (most of the time, anyway).

Clones can be bribed, even brainwashed by the enemy.

Dooku's ship (one of those Geonosian "fighters") is explicitly called a "solar sail."

We see that pirates with no force abilities or mystical gimmicks or special technology (other than those "energy handcuffs" that everyone seems to have) can outsmart and overpower two seasoned Jedi Knights AND a Sith Lord.

Poison gas didn't seem to be a problem in Episode I for Jedi holding their breath, but now suddenly it is (did they forget about holding their breath?).

Destroyer droids can now be defeated by Jedi, but as the CW take place before Episode III, I guess they forgot how again and just retreat from them?

Mace Windu is now super powerful against Droids again (though not nearly as godlike as the previous animated series... STILL much stronger than he was at Geonosis).

We see that packing crates often DO provide adequate cover in a blaster fight.

Gungan style "theater shields" can be waltzed through not only by Clone soldiers, but also by Jedi Knights without full encasing armor.

Standard Battle Droids have full personalities and are as neurotic and "sentient" as C3PO, even possessing emotions like cowardice and despair. Yes, they were going this direction in Episode III, but now it's quite explicit.

Collapsing rock walls are sufficient to destroy super battle droids.

Thrown "stone age" spears can pierce Clonetrooper armor. Yes, pierce!
Said stone-age tribesmen can overpower both battle droids and clones.

So if we take the visuals and stuff as canon, they are a lot of "implications." But yeah, it's T-canon, blah, blah, blah. The series does touch on the sorts of things people speculate about at SDN.

We get some sense of the power yield of a thermal detonator (unseen effect on a handful of troops in a room, with only the door blown down, and a trooper crawling out, still alive but wounded, armor intact).

Re: canon/vs stats implications

Posted: 2009-03-24 07:32pm
by Darwin
Kurgan wrote: It's unclear if Clonetrooper armor actually protects the user from vacuum, as Separatist forces are able to successfully kill ships full of Republic survivors simply by breaching the cockpit of a defeated vessel.
It may need action from the trooper to seal. The escape pods that were simply breached didn't, iirc, have anyone in armor. Either way, air supply in clone armor that isn't prepped seems to be rather limited, so what does it matter if the trooper dies now or a few hours from now? (Except the ones who inevitably fight back)
Kurgan wrote: Destroyer droids can now be defeated by Jedi, but as the CW take place before Episode III, I guess they forgot how again and just retreat from them?
range seems to matter here. At short range, the Droideka can be outmaneuvered. I think the main point is that they can produce a volume of fire that proves difficult for a jedi to deflect. They're still a much bigger threat to jedi than most other droids, if only because they can't be taken out by their own fire.
Kurgan wrote: Gungan style "theater shields" can be waltzed through not only by Clone soldiers, but also by Jedi Knights without full encasing armor.
perhaps through using the same force ability that kept Qui Gon from burning his hands off in Ep1 and Obi Wan and Anakin from catching on fire on Mustafar.
Kurgan wrote: Standard Battle Droids have full personalities and are as neurotic and "sentient" as C3PO, even possessing emotions like cowardice and despair. Yes, they were going this direction in Episode III, but now it's quite explicit.
Well after they were unlocked from control ships for tactical reasons, I think this is fine. Especially since they don't receive preventative maintenance.
Kurgan wrote: Thrown "stone age" spears can pierce Clonetrooper armor. Yes, pierce!
Said stone-age tribesmen can overpower both battle droids and clones.
I need to take a look at screenshots. the speartips may be special material.

Re: canon/vs stats implications

Posted: 2009-03-24 10:13pm
by Old Plympto
Kurgan wrote:Clones now wear sealed helmets while piloting (most of the time, anyway).
They're still using the clone pilot helmet from AOTC, and haven't started to wear the new open face helmets from ROTS.

Re: canon/vs stats implications

Posted: 2009-03-24 10:49pm
by Drooling Iguana
Darwin wrote:I need to take a look at screenshots. the speartips may be special material.
I don't think they were made from a special material, but it seemed like they had a hell of a lot of weight behind them. Even the strongest armour will only hold up against so much force.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-03-25 06:36am
by tezunegari
Drooling Iguana wrote:
Darwin wrote:I need to take a look at screenshots. the speartips may be special material.
I don't think they were made from a special material, but it seemed like they had a hell of a lot of weight behind them. Even the strongest armour will only hold up against so much force.
Maybe the Clone armor is specialized against blasters and not that tough against physical piercing. Comparable to modern day bullet-proof vests that stop bullets but can be penetrated by blades/sharp tools unless small metal plates are inserted.
Just as a thought.

Re: canon/vs stats implications

Posted: 2009-03-25 07:04am
by The Romulan Republic
Kurgan wrote:Some things have come up, like the series (beginning with the movie pilot) establishes that Jabba and the rest of the Hutts had first hand knowledge of the Jedi Knights, including Anakin Skywalker.
What exactly does that contradict? Is their anything to suggest that Jabba and his fellow Hutts didn't have such knowledge?
We see the apparent lack of capital ship shield interaction with physical impacts on ships...
Their's some precident for it, though I'm not sure if there's anything outside of game mechanics (missiles in Empire at War come to mind). Still, this idea didn't originate with The Clone Wars.
The very different "ion cannon" weapon, and so forth.
What was different about the ion cannons?
Apparently Yoda thinks Clones can have some knowledge of the Force and gives them a few basic lessons/philosophy.
What's wrong with this?

The Clones are living and sentient beings. Without having seen the episode in question, I can't see why they couldn't at least comprehend the concept of the Force, and study Jedi philosophy. It makes sense to me.
Some "armored" native predators are naturally able to shrug off clone blaster fire (you know, the same blasters that can penetrate the carapaces of super battle droids).
That was indeed odd. I could make up some bullshit excuse, but nothing that sounds really plausible right now.
Jedi suddenly stop wearing their headsets while in their Jedi fighters. Clones now wear sealed helmets while piloting (most of the time, anyway).
The former is odd. The latter sounds like an improvement, so I'm not complaining. This isn't Star Trek, where their's apparently a law against wearing sealed helmets in space combat. Glad to know they're doing the sensible thing.
Clones can be bribed, even brainwashed by the enemy.
The brainwashing makes more sense than the bribery. Remember Obi-wan in Episode 4 using the Mind Trick on a Stormtrooper, then telling Luke that "the Force can have a strong influence on the weak minded?"

However, clones disobeying or reinterpreting orders is not unprecidented in the EU (Dark Lord). Its just rather rare.
Dooku's ship (one of those Geonosian "fighters") is explicitly called a "solar sail."
Not sure if that contradicts anything, though the idea of a functioning solar sail that size, or one that accelerates a ship at any sudden speed, is absurd. For now, I'm inclined to treat it as just an anachronistic name that doesn't describe how the device actually works, in much the way that turbolasers are not generally held to be lasers.
We see that pirates with no force abilities or mystical gimmicks or special technology (other than those "energy handcuffs" that everyone seems to have) can outsmart and overpower two seasoned Jedi Knights AND a Sith Lord.
So? Jango and the Geonosians took Anakin prisoner in Episode 3 once his light saber was gone. Jedi have often gone down to superior numbers and/or surprise. As I commented before, I'm inclined to approve of this one, since it gives the Jedi a bit of a de-wanking. And I don't see how it contradicts anything, in the films anyways.
Poison gas didn't seem to be a problem in Episode I for Jedi holding their breath, but now suddenly it is (did they forget about holding their breath?).
That does seem like a contradiction, unless perhaps their was something special about this particular gas.
Destroyer droids can now be defeated by Jedi, but as the CW take place before Episode III, I guess they forgot how again and just retreat from them?
Are you reffering to the scene where Kenobi shoves some with the Force aboard the Malevolance? I'm trying to recall the situation their, and weather he had the advantage of surprise.

We rarely if ever see Jedi using Tk and blocking blaster bolts at the same time. Perhaps because that requires more concentration. So, perhaps Jedi were being overwelmed in other circumstances because the Destroyers got the jump on them? In other words, was their anything special about that scene that would explain Kenobi being able to use Tk where others, and he himself, had been unable to before?
We see that packing crates often DO provide adequate cover in a blaster fight.
I just assume that those particular crates were made of, and/or contained something made of, a highly durable material. Its not like Star Wars technology can't make things blaster-resistant. What if those crates were shipping something fragile that required extra protection? I believe this came up earlier in the thread.
Standard Battle Droids have full personalities and are as neurotic and "sentient" as C3PO, even possessing emotions like cowardice and despair. Yes, they were going this direction in Episode III, but now it's quite explicit.
Not a contradiction or change really, though retarded and annoying.
Collapsing rock walls are sufficient to destroy super battle droids.
How sizable/heavy were the walls in question?
We get some sense of the power yield of a thermal detonator (unseen effect on a handful of troops in a room, with only the door blown down, and a trooper crawling out, still alive but wounded, armor intact).
Aren't their thermal detonators of varying degrees of power?

I haven't covered every single example you gave, but most of these seem to be either not contradictions or changes at all, borderline cases, or fairly easily rationalized. Some may even improve the Star Wars universe, such as having pilots wearing sealed helmets.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-03-25 10:29am
by Kurgan
If you're curious:

The collapsing walls were in the movie-pilot.

Dooku's "solar sail" was in 1x09 IIRC (the episode where we see the "wild gundark" in the cave)

I think that was also the "poison gas" episode, but I could be mistaken. Either that or the following one.

1x10 has the packing crates o' protection
1x13 (iirc) has the pirates overcoming elite force users with little more than cunning and pistols
1x14 has the theater shields being casually walked through
1x15 has the spears killing through armor

The Thermal Detonator example was from the latest episode.

I think it was one of the two "Mad Scientist/Plague" episodes where we saw the Destroyer droids being defeated. IIRC, there was one where Asoka (sp?) leaped on top of one (with its shield up) and punched her saber through it. And yes, there was another where the force was used on them, but I don't recall which episode it was.

As for the other details, I didn't write down which episodes, but I'm fairly sure we saw most of them in the "Malevolence" trilogy with regard to the ship/space stuff.

There's just some things that don't appear to match up with what has been established in Episode II and III, and other things that just defy common sense (or hurts SOD). Of course that this series often contradicts the previous animated series goes without saying.

As for the contradictions, I frankly don't care, I'm just mentioning what I noticed watching. Even though this is a "kid's show" I imagine we'll be having similar discussions regarding the live action series when it finally comes out.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-03-25 05:02pm
by VT-16
The Campaign Guide has had some nice tidbits, one of which was that the naval designation of a "section" is turned into a "line" when "heavier cruisers or battleships" are part of it. Given that the Venators have been consistently referred to as "cruisers" in the show, that means we might be getting something big on the Republic side, later on in the show. Of course, just having this tidbit by itself is good enough. 8)

As for some of the strange things with capital ships, keep in mind a strike cruiser got downed by one X-wing in SOTE. And that was because the fighter took a looooooong turn while the cruiser had all its shields aimed at the Rebel fleet it just spotted.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-07 10:02am
by Force Lord
There's a Season two preview now. Here's the link:

http://www.starwars.com/video/view/000795.html
Spoiler
Ahsoka has less revealing clothes now, at least for a couple of episodes.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-07 11:34am
by NecronLord
I saw that one right after the finale.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-07 12:01pm
by The Romulan Republic
I noticed what looked like Ashoka getting electroshocked by the bounty hunter. Seems they've decided to push it a little farther with the level of violence in a "kid's" show.

From the trailer, it looks like they may be setting him up as a major recurring villain in season two though, and I'm not sure I'm happy about that. I mean, a few episodes might work, but I don't want some bounty hunter we've never heard of before showing up Ventriss and Grevious.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-07 12:36pm
by Kurgan
Not enough T&A and violence in this show! What, is it just for kids now?

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-07 02:07pm
by Knife
The Romulan Republic wrote:I noticed what looked like Ashoka getting electroshocked by the bounty hunter. Seems they've decided to push it a little farther with the level of violence in a "kid's" show.

From the trailer, it looks like they may be setting him up as a major recurring villain in season two though, and I'm not sure I'm happy about that. I mean, a few episodes might work, but I don't want some bounty hunter we've never heard of before showing up Ventriss and Grevious.
lol, actually a nice detour I think. I like Dooku in the series being just the hologram bad guy with only a few episodes with him in it for reals. Ventriss is just sad in the show, pathetic really, but she has to loose so...

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-07 06:03pm
by Darksider
Knife wrote: lol, actually a nice detour I think. I like Dooku in the series being just the hologram bad guy with only a few episodes with him in it for reals. Ventriss is just sad in the show, pathetic really, but she has to loose so...
To be honest, I was never that impressed with ventress in the comics or the cartoon either. It seems as though she merely exists to get beaten by Anakin and Obi-wan. Maybe that's why Sidious had Dooku recruit her? It makes the dynamic duo's heroics seem more exciting if they have a designated villian, and Palps definitly wants his war to be a good show for the masses.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-07 06:08pm
by Thanas
Ventress was very capable in the episode where she got Nute Gunray out.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-07 06:21pm
by Knife
Ventress is a plot device rather than a character

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-08 11:50am
by Force Lord
Knife wrote:Ventress is a plot device rather than a character
:wtf: How is Ventress a plot device?

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-08 01:28pm
by The Romulan Republic
Knife wrote:Ventress is a plot device rather than a character
Going off of just his film appearences, wouldn't the same be at least as true for Darth Maul?

Ventress works well as the mysterious assassin who comes in and screws everything up, and is a good one to use if you don't want to overuse Dooku and Grievious. Her usefulness is limitted, granted, and I'd like to see more character development, but she's not bad if used well.

However, she's also a dark Jedi, like it or not, and I don't want some upstart bounty hunter taking the spotlight for more than a few episodes, if its going to mean implausible situations where he manages to do better against the Jedi than he could reasonably be expected to, or better than dedicated Jedi killers like Ventress. That's my concern here, not that Ventris isn't being used enough.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-08 03:30pm
by Knife
Force Lord wrote:
Knife wrote:Ventress is a plot device rather than a character
:wtf: How is Ventress a plot device?
Every time we see her, she comes in, attacks to cause drama for the protagonists, then fails to beat, conquer, or win the situation, let alone kill the hero's and slinks off for next time.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-08 03:54pm
by NecronLord
That's a villain archetype that's at least as old as the Sheriff of Nottingham. I don't see why it makes her a plot device and not a character - he's usually depicted as a person, not a walking plot enabler, after all.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-08 06:41pm
by tezunegari
When does Ventress lose? Whenever she openly attacks an opponent or leads a combat mission as far as I remember.
But give her a stealth mission like busting Gunray out of prison or kidnapping (wormnapping?) Jabbas son she really does a fine job.

I see her as a tool that is largely used for the wrong missions. She just isn't meant for combat, sure she can stand her ground against Jedi but her real strength lies in covert operations.

Re: Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

Posted: 2009-04-08 08:20pm
by The Romulan Republic
NecronLord wrote:That's a villain archetype that's at least as old as the Sheriff of Nottingham. I don't see why it makes her a plot device and not a character - he's usually depicted as a person, not a walking plot enabler, after all.
Well, in Ventress's case their is the apparent lack of any motive: no one knows where she came from, why she hates the Jedi, or why she wants to be a Sith.

Of course, like Maul, she can go so far on shere badassery, but at a certain point a little more development would be nice.

Though, given the EU's propensity to a) give every little character a huge backstory and b) screw things up royally, it may be a good thing I don't know more about Ventress. :wink: