StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Knife wrote: 2018-01-01 04:38pm Sure, would have made sense then.

or...

(list snip)

All major planets in Cannon, either one of the 10 movies or Clone Wars/Rebels. Each is a developed world as of 30-50 years ago. Each had enough resources to have defensive fleets/shields/orbital or ground based weapons. A good chunk were represented in the Resistance ie: Mon Calamari, Sullust(ian?). Can think of no reason Coruscant or Mon Cala or Sullust would be in a hurry to bow to the FO, especially non human planets since the FO is pretty much aping the fascist racist shit per General Hux.

Or make a new one up, it was their movie. But as said before, they wanted that chase. And it was bad.

Yeah. The only justification I can think of is if the Supremacy itself is well armed enough to challenge any single defensive fleet or has weaponry capable of threatening planetary/theater shields to some extent.

But if it was that powerful, the Raddus shouldn't have survived ten seconds.

There's just so much in conflict about this film. I'm not really sure on where to begin fixing things in it.

CaoCao wrote: 2018-01-01 03:11pm The KoR killing a possibility? Sure. A random killing being a past event important enough to ensue a vision?

Was Rey being at Cloud City "important" to her?

Leaving aside your just constantly insisting things are bad, back to substantive nitpick issues:

Nope, smartass, no future predicting is necesary. They are a runaway fleet being targeted by a "fleet killer". It should be at the top of their priority targets list to remove.

Not when you have dramatically limited resources and destroying the enemy ship will not improve your position at any relevant time. The attack had dramatically low odds of success. The Resistance lost a huge portion of its limited assets in exchange for a dreadnought which we have no reason for assuming is unique.

Yeap, Maz had a magical number they could dial from anywhere.

Or, she's not in the Outer Rim.

Disney canon has a lot of places that provide an advantage (hard to travel territory).

Given that the First Order fleet will pounce on them within some 30 seconds of their coming out of hyerspace, your basis for assuming they'll be able to take advantage of this hard to travel territory is what? Given that the Vigil was immediately destroyed the first time it happened? And why should anyone assume this 'hard to travel' territory is easy for the Resistance to travel, but hard for the First Order?

Scatering the ships only leave one of the three vulnerable (and Holdo lost all three of them plus most of the crews).

And why should we assume they can be scattered, again? In the version of the movie you watched, did they say that the First Order could only track one ship at a time? And if that was actually the case, who would give a shit since your plan would obviously result in the eventual destruction of the Raddus? Yay, big victory, the Resistance might have saved a corvette and a frigate a tiny fraction of the size and capability of their flagship.

BTW, this is the first SW movie to indulge in the amount of technobabble you try to endorse to others.

The technobabble is a problem, yes. I'm not a fan.

Galvatron wrote: 2018-01-01 03:47pm I guess it's open to debate as to whether or not they were stupid for not anticipating that the First Order could build a superweapon like the Starkiller.

Anticipating? If they weren't stupid, they would have had an intelligence apparatus keeping tabs on all the fringe groups so they wouldn't have to anticipate anything. Are you suggesting that an organization that fills its volumous ranks with kidnapped, brainwashed children was beneath the notice even of the Republic's law enforcement agencies?

Bob the Gunslinger wrote: 2018-01-01 09:11pm

Galvatron wrote: 2018-01-01 03:47pm I guess it's open to debate as to whether or not they were stupid for not anticipating that the First Order could build a superweapon like the Starkiller.

Anticipating? If they weren't stupid, they would have had an intelligence apparatus keeping tabs on all the fringe groups so they wouldn't have to anticipate anything. Are you suggesting that an organization that fills its volumous ranks with kidnapped, brainwashed children was beneath the notice even of the Republic's law enforcement agencies?

Not the first time we've seen galaxy-upsetting military capabilities manufactured in secret to the surprise of a great galactic power.

CaoCao wrote: 2018-01-01 03:11pm

Shroom wrote:I guess symbolism and lore are lost on you. long snip

You read something about the phoenix and think it's an obscure legend a few know?

I was being sarcastic and ironic, though even without sarcirony it seemed like you were oblivious to it.

Luke had as much of prequel era Jedi as Rey with the books (he even rejected Yoda's idea of killing Vader).

Until he grew old and encountered the very same dilemma and had an impasse, as shown in TLJ. Even as a kid he was uncertain and struggled. We saw that he still wasn't able to go past the Jedi's failings (I mean, if he DID then there would be no more continued Skywalker Family Drama and IDK if the fans would be upset if the SW sequels didn't include the Skywalkers in the struggle as they'd Live Happily Ever After ). So... another person gets to try!

Shroom wrote:That image still communicated with the living.

Sure, in Episode IX Luke will troll Ben by astral projecting Han's pants.

Or a broken space condom.

I don't like the idea that Rose was the one who engineered the lifeboats' stealth systems. Not that I don't think she's a good engineer... but it'd make her involvement in Poe and Finn's scheme really dubious then! Or, fine, it's really messy then, information was so compartmentalized that she had previously worked on stealthing the transports but was unaware of Holdo's plan and unaware that they were near Crait and the ships were gonna be used to take the survivors there!

Imperial528 wrote: 2018-01-01 05:04pm

Knife wrote: 2018-01-01 04:38pm Sure, would have made sense then.

or...

(list snip)

All major planets in Cannon, either one of the 10 movies or Clone Wars/Rebels. Each is a developed world as of 30-50 years ago. Each had enough resources to have defensive fleets/shields/orbital or ground based weapons. A good chunk were represented in the Resistance ie: Mon Calamari, Sullust(ian?). Can think of no reason Coruscant or Mon Cala or Sullust would be in a hurry to bow to the FO, especially non human planets since the FO is pretty much aping the fascist racist shit per General Hux.

Or make a new one up, it was their movie. But as said before, they wanted that chase. And it was bad.

Yeah. The only justification I can think of is if the Supremacy itself is well armed enough to challenge any single defensive fleet or has weaponry capable of threatening planetary/theater shields to some extent.

But if it was that powerful, the Raddus shouldn't have survived ten seconds.

There's just so much in conflict about this film. I'm not really sure on where to begin fixing things in it.

Hmm... if the Imperial-loyal worlds demilitarized, then they would demand that those systems' significant interstellar fighting abilities - i.e. things that beyond defensive starfighters, shields and space stations, like cruisers and other big ships - be either curtailed or rescinded to the centralized galactic defense force so no local system would exceed parity with each other. So we won't get a "heavily armed Trade Fed blockades poor weak Naboo" situation.

Then the central Republic galactic defense force gets nuked.

One might speculate that this state of affairs might've been encouraged by fifth columnists, Manchurian/Muunilistian Candidates, FO loyalists, etc. planted by Snoke and company, going all HAIL HYDRA and voting to encourage Mothma-ist pacifism and discourage Organaist/Gerrerist direct action tendencies, because it's all part of the MASTER PLAN MUWAHAHAHA. Diet Palpatine part deux, if you will!

Shroom Man 777 wrote: 2018-01-02 12:41am One might speculate that this state of affairs might've been encouraged by fifth columnists, Manchurian/Muunilistian Candidates, FO loyalists, etc. planted by Snoke and company, going all HAIL HYDRA and voting to encourage Mothma-ist pacifism and discourage Organaist/Gerrerist direct action tendencies, because it's all part of the MASTER PLAN MUWAHAHAHA. Diet Palpatine part deux, if you will!

That's pretty much how things were set up in Bloodline, the novel that Rian Johnson directly influenced.

General observation - if you think Rey was intended by JJ Abrams to have some sort of glorious heritage and Rian Johnson purposefully negated that (as if these movies were shot like an argument on a forum), well:

1. Daisy Ridley said right after TFA came out that she knew her parents were (and perhaps quite foolishly, thought it obvious from her perspective);

2. From December 2015:

http://www.slashfilm.com/jj-abrams-midi-chlorians/

I will just say this: I would never presume to question anything George Lucas says is canon in Star Wars. And our job was not to negate or undo. A lot of people who are critics of our Star Trek, and I respect all of them, said we destroyed what they loved and negated everything. And we worked hard to clarify that we are not saying that our Star Trek over-rides a thing of the original Star Trek — it was a parallel timeline. I never wanted to negate canon that fans held so dear. And because I love Star Wars and have for too many years… … And having said all that and meaning it — I don’t want to presume over-write or change what George says the rules are.

I’m not someone who quite understands the science of the Force. To me Star Wars was never about science fiction — it was a spiritual story. And it was more of a fairytale in that regard. For me when I heard Obi-Wan say that the Force surrounds us and binds us all together, there was no judgement about who you were. This was something that we could all access. Being strong with the force didn’t mean something scientific, it meant something spiritual. It meant someone who could believe, someone who could reach down to the depths of your feelings and follow this primal energy that was flowing through all of us. I mean, thats what was said in that first film!

And there I am sitting in the theater at almost 11 years old and that was a powerful notion. And I think this is what your point was, we would like to believe that when shit gets serious, that you could harness that Force I was told surrounds not just some of us but every living thing. And so, I really feel like the assumption that any character needs to have inherited a certain number of midi-chlorians or needs to be part of a bloodline, it’s not that I don’t believe that as part of the canon, I’m just saying that at 11 years old, that wasn’t where my heart was. And so I respect and adhere to the canon but I also say that the Force has always seemed to me to be more inclusive and stronger than that.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: 2018-01-02 12:29am Not the first time we've seen galaxy-upsetting military capabilities manufactured in secret to the surprise of a great galactic power.

To what are you referring?

Eta: oh wait. The clones I guess?

Crazedwraith wrote: 2018-01-02 06:11am

Shroom Man 777 wrote: 2018-01-02 12:29am Not the first time we've seen galaxy-upsetting military capabilities manufactured in secret to the surprise of a great galactic power.

To what are you referring?

Eta: oh wait. The clones I guess?

Uh huh, and the CIS was outright preparing for war with the galaxy and they're surprised!

I am not sure how much the CIS' own preparations surprised the Republic.

I think it's actually not that difficult to mass produce galaxy-wrecking shit, be it ginormous battlestations or grand interstellar militaries, on short notice to wreck people's crap. If the Rebels had a better budget...

I thought this was interesting:

18.) Apparently, the true scale of the First Order’s military is “beyond the worst-case predictions” of General Organa. The Order has been amassing and hiding their fleet in the shadowy corners of uncharted space. It’s probably safe to assume there are more large-scale never-before-seen surprises in store.

58 Things We Learned from Star Wars: The Last Jedi Visual Dictionary

Shroom Man 777 wrote: 2018-01-02 12:29am

Bob the Gunslinger wrote: 2018-01-01 09:11pm

Galvatron wrote: 2018-01-01 03:47pm I guess it's open to debate as to whether or not they were stupid for not anticipating that the First Order could build a superweapon like the Starkiller.

Anticipating? If they weren't stupid, they would have had an intelligence apparatus keeping tabs on all the fringe groups so they wouldn't have to anticipate anything. Are you suggesting that an organization that fills its volumous ranks with kidnapped, brainwashed children was beneath the notice even of the Republic's law enforcement agencies?

Not the first time we've seen galaxy-upsetting military capabilities manufactured in secret to the surprise of a great galactic power.

In what Star Wars movie did that happen? One of the terrible prequels? Is that the level of quality to which the ST should aspire?

One thing I would note: Even in the prequels, the forces being mobilized in secret had a basis for it, in two forms:

First, the groups mobilizing them are described as being powerful. The separatist factions are given to represent a significant portion of the galaxy's industrial and economic power, and the prequels set up the governing bureaucracy of the Republic to be confounded by corruption and inefficiency enough that the Republic would be unable to keep tabs on them.

Secondly, because there are no preexisting defining works set immediately before the prequels, we can take these depictions at face value.

For the sequel trilogy, the former is lacking and the latter is the exact opposite. The Force Awakens does not explain much of the First Order's origins or strength. In a vacuum that is not a problem. However, the original trilogy makes the First Order's existence and depiction problematic. Return of the Jedi ends with the clear implication that the Rebel victory at Endor is at least the turning point towards total victory, if not the definitive victory for the Rebellion.

Fast forward to TFA and TLJ. The former Rebellion and its supporting systems have had decades to establish a new government. Given the length of the old Rebellion's fight against the Empire, and the intervening years, one would expect the original systems that supported the Rebellion to be just as if not more loyal to the cause than before.

In TFA it's believable that the majority of systems, still weary from the old war, moved to have the New Republic coexist with the First Order. It is completely and totally unbelievable to me that the same systems polarized into supporting the Rebellion by the Empire's destruction of Alderaan, and then emboldened by the Rebellion's successful destruction of the Death Star, would sit idly by after the government they worked so hard to build is destroyed by a First Order superweapon, that is then itself destroyed by the Resistance. I would expect them to embrace the Resistance with renewed vigor, and to be out for the First Order's blood. Instead we see a Resistance that is pathetic compared to the original Rebellion.

The Empire had the support of the galaxy's industry, and was able to use its might to keep dissenting systems down. Even if the New Republic does not control as much of the galaxy as the Empire did, it makes no sense that it would somehow be outmatched by the First Order.

I don't care if tie-in materials detail the First Order's advantages over the New Republic. These films do not exist in a vacuum as definitive works: they are sequels existing in a predefined universe, and so they should be able to stand on their own in the series. They do not.

Finally, a thought on preconceptions from the EU/Legends:

Disney relegating the old EU to the new Legends status does make it difficult, now, to pin down the specifics in the universe. But as far as the feel of the universe, I do not think it entirely inappropriate to at least draw from the same scale of the old EU, in so far as it fits with the OT and PT. Why? Because it is clear that the new EU, and the sequel trilogy, is working from the same old EU concepts. The OT mentions no Unknown Regions, no rim territories, and other such things. These were creations of the old EU, bits of which did manage to filter into the prequels. Given the absolute rehash that much of the new EU and the sequels have been, I don't find it odd at all to work from many of the old EU's concepts, even if the specifics are invalid.

Following on from the above: perhaps it would have made more sense to have the Supremacy in TFA and be the 'superweapon' there. Except it's not a superweapon, it's a ship, a really big one admittedly. The scale of it would have given the FO some credibility for building something like the Starkiller Base, and it would've been fun to watch the FO fleet hyper into Hosnian orbit and engage in a fleet battle with the Republic before razing Hosnian.

That might also help explain the Rebels being sharply reduced in TLJ, particularly if you just drop the silly pretense that they were a separate faction from the Republic, and make it clear that they're... I dunno, escapees from the fleet massacre at Hosnian or something, which would also explain the massive disparity in power.

Since the Raddus and her escorts were completely absent in TFA, they could have easily been made survivors from the NR fleet. Hell, Admiral Holdo could have been a serving officer in the NR and the legitimate commander of the flotilla since Leia and Ackbar were Resistance.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I like having the First Order assault Hosnian with a fleet battle rather than just pulling a superweapon out of their hat.

Thinking about it: change TFA a bit, make the First Order more of a proper Imperial Remnant (opening crawl: SURVIVORS OF THE EMPIRE HAVE FORMED A NEW ORDER IN THE UNKNOWN REGIONS WHILE THE REBELS ATTEMPT TO REBUILD THE REPUBLIC. LED BY AN UNKNOWN, THEY HAVE BEGUN THE FIRST BATTLES OF A WAR, etc).

Put in a line or two about how 'this is our entire fleet', foreshadow Starkiller Base somehow ('...fleet, except for our division guarding the Project'), keep Snoke out of the picture like in TFA. Use the Supremacy and those... what, six or seven? Star Destroyers with it, maybe pull out a Dreadnought or two, blow away the Republic fleet and destroy Hosnian. Raddus and escorts escape, evacuate Leia from the Republic base at D'qar.

The downside of that is you don't have the big blowing-up-Starkiller-Base setpiece to wind up the movie, but... did they really NEED that? Change it up to Kylo Ren going off on his own chasing after Han, Finn and Rey. He captures Rey, takes her up to his Star Destroyer, and the big fight at the end can be Poe, Han and company saving her from the Star Destroyer. Everything can pretty much play as it did in TFA otherwise. Keep the last fight against the Supremacy and Holdo's kamikaze run for TLJ.

The big problem I'm having with the sequel trilogy so far is really the lack of consistency between the films. I mean, granted two films isn't much to go on, but if you consider the prequels and the OT, they did all have George Lucas tying them together in writing. That really helped keep a common note between the three films in each trilogy. But with each sequel film being written by a separate team... I'm seeing pretty blatant difficulties with tone, and the different directorial directions are very obvious. If the scripts were more unified, that would minimize the problem to some degree.

Elheru Aran wrote: 2018-01-02 01:25pm Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I like having the First Order assault Hosnian with a fleet battle rather than just pulling a superweapon out of their hat.

Thinking about it: change TFA a bit, make the First Order more of a proper Imperial Remnant (opening crawl: SURVIVORS OF THE EMPIRE HAVE FORMED A NEW ORDER IN THE UNKNOWN REGIONS WHILE THE REBELS ATTEMPT TO REBUILD THE REPUBLIC. LED BY AN UNKNOWN, THEY HAVE BEGUN THE FIRST BATTLES OF A WAR, etc).

Put in a line or two about how 'this is our entire fleet', foreshadow Starkiller Base somehow ('...fleet, except for our division guarding the Project'), keep Snoke out of the picture like in TFA. Use the Supremacy and those... what, six or seven? Star Destroyers with it, maybe pull out a Dreadnought or two, blow away the Republic fleet and destroy Hosnian. Raddus and escorts escape, evacuate Leia from the Republic base at D'qar.

The downside of that is you don't have the big blowing-up-Starkiller-Base setpiece to wind up the movie, but... did they really NEED that? Change it up to Kylo Ren going off on his own chasing after Han, Finn and Rey. He captures Rey, takes her up to his Star Destroyer, and the big fight at the end can be Poe, Han and company saving her from the Star Destroyer. Everything can pretty much play as it did in TFA otherwise. Keep the last fight against the Supremacy and Holdo's kamikaze run for TLJ.

The big problem I'm having with the sequel trilogy so far is really the lack of consistency between the films. I mean, granted two films isn't much to go on, but if you consider the prequels and the OT, they did all have George Lucas tying them together in writing. That really helped keep a common note between the three films in each trilogy. But with each sequel film being written by a separate team... I'm seeing pretty blatant difficulties with tone, and the different directorial directions are very obvious. If the scripts were more unified, that would minimize the problem to some degree.

You could have the final battle of TFA be the successful destruction of the Mega-class that destroyed Hosnian but have it be a phyrric victory. Maybe have most of the Republic fleet be destroyed just to get that ship down.
Then at the beginning of TLJ the Supremacy appears and the Resistance goes "Dafuq! They have more than one of those?!"
And Starkiller base is the final boss of the third part of the Sequel Trilogy.

Crazedwraith wrote: 2018-01-02 06:11am

Shroom Man 777 wrote: 2018-01-02 12:29am Not the first time we've seen galaxy-upsetting military capabilities manufactured in secret to the surprise of a great galactic power.

To what are you referring?

Eta: oh wait. The clones I guess?

Yes, but the difference between the PT and ST is that the clones and their equipment really were built in secret. Here we have the First Order building up their military with a large number of middlemen. As TLJ shows, a large chunk of the patrons on Canto Bight seems to have made their fortunes selling arms to both "sides" (with the few X-Wings the Resistance... or is it back to Rebels again... has, it's a wonder anyone would've made much money on it). With a large number of middlemen, I don't see how it could've been kept a secret. Bloodline goes into some detail, but I find the whole First Order business somewhat confusing (mainly because the poor worldbuilding in both TFA and TLJ).

EDIT: Missed the later post. While the Republic was unprepared for war, the Chancellor (ignoring his knowledge about the issues at hand) admitted it was a possibility.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: 2018-01-02 12:33am Until he grew old and encountered the very same dilemma and had an impasse, as shown in TLJ. Even as a kid he was uncertain and struggled. We saw that he still wasn't able to go past the Jedi's failings (I mean, if he DID then there would be no more continued Skywalker Family Drama and IDK if the fans would be upset if the SW sequels didn't include the Skywalkers in the struggle as they'd Live Happily Ever After ). So... another person gets to try!

What this basically results in is an emotionally unsatisfactory journey to Luke's character arc. What some fans are hoping to see is for SW to adhere to the fairytale tradition where people do live happily ever after. SW is built so heavily on escapism, constructing an more escapist reality for the characters to inhabit. I think there are people who have legitimate issues with Rian Johnson trying to deconstruct what's the basic essence of Star Wars. Star Wars is an escapist fantasy, perhaps similar to works like LOTR where good triumphs over evil and peace lasted for several generations at the very least. People want to see Star Wars as a franchise where they could escape from the doom and failures of the reality they are living in.

The basic problem with the sequel trilogy is trying to solve the problem of Luke. JJ Abrams and Michael Arnt have both mentioned that one of the problems they had with the development of EP 7 was they could not write a story where Luke doesn't overshadow Rey. There's an expectation that Luke is so powerful in the force that he can basically do everything for the new young protagonists and overshadow their character development. So what they did, in the end, was to pass the buck to Rian Johnson.

Rian Johnson did the only thing he could with the set-up offered to him by JJ Abrams. In order for Luke to not overshadow Rey, Luke must be a failure on some level. Any alternative solution is completely thrown out with the set-up of TFA. I think the major mistake the sequel movies are making on a fundamental level is to make a new conflict a brand new galactic wide conflict. Luke must be involved in the story somehow because the fate of the Galaxy is at stake. An alternative solution would be to limit the scale of the conflict to something much smaller. Instead of a brand new Galactic civil war, narrow the conflict to a few system on the outskirts of the New Republic.

Give us a setting where the reach of the NR and the new Jedi Order are limited. Let the new protagonists be Luke's students that are cut off from their master's help. Allow Luke to be stuck doing something even more pressing so he can't be easily available to bail out the new protagonist. At the same time, Luke's character arc as a master can be very much learning to let his students go on their own and stretch their own wings

The new protagonist can be nobody because you don't need to be a special someone of some bloodline to be the hero of the story. Everyone is a hero of their own little story, regardless of how big the conflict is. A story about a nobody saving one solar system is about someone saving billions of lives. At the same time, you can give the old protagonist some sense of peace and allow them to retire, because they should not be expected to be constantly putting out every small-scale conflict or bushfire wars around the whole galaxy. They've done their bit for the Galaxy and they are learning to pass on their knowledge to a new generation.


IMO, the sequels need to depict a much smaller conflict than a new war about the fate of the whole galaxy. The FO as an evil organisation works if the conflict is a few local star system dealing with Imperial remnants. The Resistance also works if the scale of conflict is merely about a few star system where NR rule is weak. A superweapon that can stop any New Republic fleet in the region and reinforcements can also be a dramatic point if you want to reuse a superweapon in your plot. Luke, Han, and Leia being able to play a minor supporting role also work because they are at an age where they are supposed to be retired and can't go running about saving the Galaxy.

ray245 wrote: 2018-01-02 06:23pmWhat this basically results in is an emotionally unsatisfactory journey to Luke's character arc. What some fans are hoping to see is for SW to adhere to the fairytale tradition where people do live happily ever after. SW is built so heavily on escapism, constructing an more escapist reality for the characters to inhabit. I think there are people who have legitimate issues with Rian Johnson trying to deconstruct what's the basic essence of Star Wars. Star Wars is an escapist fantasy, perhaps similar to works like LOTR where good triumphs over evil and peace lasted for several generations at the very least. People want to see Star Wars as a franchise where they could escape from the doom and failures of the reality they are living in.

The basic problem with the sequel trilogy is trying to solve the problem of Luke. JJ Abrams and Michael Arnt have both mentioned that one of the problems they had with the development of EP 7 was they could not write a story where Luke doesn't overshadow Rey. There's an expectation that Luke is so powerful in the force that he can basically do everything for the new young protagonists and overshadow their character development. So what they did, in the end, was to pass the buck to Rian Johnson.

This part got me thinking, and I've made an interesting connection here.

New topic: The Last Jedi is Go Set A Watchman to the original trilogy's To Kill A Mockingbird, with the deconstruction of Luke depicting him as an abject and utter failure mirroring the revelation that Atticus Finch was actually racist the whole time.

Discuss.

ray245 wrote: 2018-01-02 06:23pmThe basic problem with the sequel trilogy is trying to solve the problem of Luke. JJ Abrams and Michael Arnt have both mentioned that one of the problems they had with the development of EP 7 was they could not write a story where Luke doesn't overshadow Rey.

Hahaha, that's funny. We don't want to write a film where the force user overshadows everyone around them! That'd be terrible!

If they can't write that story all they're doing is admitting they have very poor creative skills. I don't recall Obi-Wan overshadowing Luke in ANH.

That's because Obi Wan appears, gives exposition and leaves during much of the action, then dies - much like Gandalf in the Hobbit and (the first book of) Lord of the Rings, it's a mentor cliche. I'm sure fans would be equally upset if Luke had gone down like Obi Wan did.

Ray's thoughts on how to do it, mirror my own, but you would have to have started in TFA to make it work.

Much smaller scale. Have a Jedi order and have the main character to be sort of a Jedi Knight-Errant. Luke would be the big good and trainer/mentor but intentionally not interfering that much because the next generation does need to learn to stand on it's own to feet or something.

Absolutely agreed. The 'galactic scale' plot didn't need to be a thing, and frankly the opening crawl could easily have said "The Republic prospers but a new threat, the FIRST ORDER is on the rise" or something like that, and that would be all one would need. They've kinda rushed into making the conflict have galactic scale.

ray245 wrote: 2018-01-02 06:23pmIMO, the sequels need to depict a much smaller conflict than a new war about the fate of the whole galaxy. The FO as an evil organisation works if the conflict is a few local star system dealing with Imperial remnants. The Resistance also works if the scale of conflict is merely about a few star system where NR rule is weak. A superweapon that can stop any New Republic fleet in the region and reinforcements can also be a dramatic point if you want to reuse a superweapon in your plot. Luke, Han, and Leia being able to play a minor supporting role also work because they are at an age where they are supposed to be retired and can't go running about saving the Galaxy.

Such a setup would also (I think) made this already inspiring scene from TFA much better. "It's the Republic," but alas.

I still think the republic/resistance 'siege tower' warship many times the size of a star destroyer for breaching planetary shields was an excellent idea from TFA, and they should have used it rather than the silly plot of Han and Finn infiltrating the Starkiller Base and Phasma giving up its shield codes and showing herself to be basically a bully. Something to show that the good guys have more resources/power now.

Oh well.

A few local star systems dealing with Imperial remnants? So why isn't the New Republic just hyperspacing in with their massive fleet and just smashing them? Is Admiral Nechayev going to call Captain Picard and tell him he's the only ship in the sector, too?

This is all remarkably low stakes.