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Doesn't undo closing a window.

Praxis wrote:Doesn't undo closing a window.

Nope, but Firefox caches the page and the history. Just go to "History - Recently closed tabs." Hassle free.

As for the customers...well I DUNNO about the USA, but here in asia, it's trendy for you to have top-line Handphone. (I don't use the word cell phone)

Basically, almost everyone will change their phone when their contracts need to be renewed after 2 years for most. Also, with each new contract and trade in, new phones can be subsidized up to $150-200.

Hence, I do believe that in asia, the IPhone CAN sell pretty well...and we teenagers are more than willing to spend money on good phones here.

the IPhone CAN sell pretty well...and we teenagers are more than willing to spend money on good phones here.

it'll need to go UMTS/HSDPA first otherwise (and get a DMB tuner), it'll be useless in Japan and South Korea. i'll stick to my smartphone

In terms and gizmo features, the iPhone's major advantages over other smartphones are the 8GB and the UI/OS. It lacks a tactile keyboard, high-resolution camera and GPS. I'm personally waiting to see how well the UI/OS works in practice before committing anything - if it's anything short of revolutionary, I'd rather get a Nokia N95 or E90.

Praxis wrote:Doesn't undo closing a window.

Hrm, must be an ubuntu patch to firefox 2 or something- I notice Firefox on ubuntu has a slightly different menu than windows.

Praxis wrote:I usually just plug a Microsoft mouse into my MacBook (we've got a couple around the house, they're cheap, comfy, and USB). Never tried installing a mouse driver as everything I plugged in worked fine...but I've never tried a higher res mouse.

But yeah, usually it's just a package file. You double click on it, enter an admin password, and run the installer.

Forgot to bring the mouse and driver, but I did test expose.

Not perfect (since it doesn't index the in-program micro windows), but it does make managing a pile of programs a breeze, and removes the need to use the dock or hunt around. The lack of a few other controls makes more sense now, it'd be as if I was navigating without use of my tab key. Oddly, my employer didn't even know about it either, so I'm not suprised he failed to brief me on it. I actually showed him how to work it. The guides I've been looking at have been much more helpful.

Any operating system, when installed, supported, and taught by people who don't know it, will invariably look pretty dumpy.

Ypoknons wrote:In terms and gizmo features, the iPhone's major advantages over other smartphones are the 8GB and the UI/OS. It lacks a tactile keyboard,

That's an advantage. The whole point of multitouch is to make cell phone UI not suck. It remains to be seen whether the versatility of multi-touch will overcome the lack of tactile feedback, but Steve appeared to be navigating around and texting without too much trouble. It probably just takes getting used to.

high-resolution camera and GPS.

Just about every camera phone on the American market is fairly low-resolution, especially compared to European phones.

Covenant wrote:

Praxis wrote:I usually just plug a Microsoft mouse into my MacBook (we've got a couple around the house, they're cheap, comfy, and USB). Never tried installing a mouse driver as everything I plugged in worked fine...but I've never tried a higher res mouse.

But yeah, usually it's just a package file. You double click on it, enter an admin password, and run the installer.

Forgot to bring the mouse and driver, but I did test expose.

Not perfect (since it doesn't index the in-program micro windows), but it does make managing a pile of programs a breeze, and removes the need to use the dock or hunt around. The lack of a few other controls makes more sense now, it'd be as if I was navigating without use of my tab key. Oddly, my employer didn't even know about it either, so I'm not suprised he failed to brief me on it. I actually showed him how to work it. The guides I've been looking at have been much more helpful.

Any operating system, when installed, supported, and taught by people who don't know it, will invariably look pretty dumpy.

I only use the dock for switching between single-window applications (iMovie, iTunes, Parallels, etc) and just hit F9 for everything else.

Praxis wrote:I only use the dock for switching between single-window applications (iMovie, iTunes, Parallels, etc) and just hit F9 for everything else.

It handles it really well though. I especially like the the very verbose location data it gives--instead of just the program, it gives the whole location and automatically resizes them to make it work. This is a perfect example of the Apple UI style performing flawlessly, and now I see what the fuss about expose was all about. Even after a day of using it, it really feels nice and fast to do. Intuitive design.

Durandal wrote:That's an advantage. The whole point of multitouch is to make cell phone UI not suck. It remains to be seen whether the versatility of multi-touch will overcome the lack of tactile feedback, but Steve appeared to be navigating around and texting without too much trouble. It probably just takes getting used to.

That's also what I'm waiting to see. In future developments I also see some potential in technology that creates the illusion of tactile feedback through electrical pulses.

Just about every camera phone on the American market is fairly low-resolution, especially compared to European phones.

As a consumer I am not limited to looking at the American market, especially since I go back to Asia all the time. My N73, for example, works fine in NYC. From the business perspective, it makes sense to look at the American market in isolation, yes.

Covenant wrote:

Praxis wrote:I only use the dock for switching between single-window applications (iMovie, iTunes, Parallels, etc) and just hit F9 for everything else.

It handles it really well though. I especially like the the very verbose location data it gives--instead of just the program, it gives the whole location and automatically resizes them to make it work. This is a perfect example of the Apple UI style performing flawlessly, and now I see what the fuss about expose was all about. Even after a day of using it, it really feels nice and fast to do. Intuitive design.

Yeah, people stopped complaining about the dock after Panther introduced Expose back 2003.

It's always weird though, if you just stand around CompUSA in the Mac section and talk to people...there's actually quite a number of people who have no idea about Expose.

Myself, I don't even use the minimize button. I either leave apps running (F9 gets me back to them), or if I get a LOT of stuff, I use Apple-H to hide.


I can have five FireFox windows and three Photoshop windows and two word documents. If I'm working with FireFox, when I'm done, I hit Apple-H and all FireFox windows disappear, click Photoshop and hit F10 and pick the Photoshop window. When I'm done with that, Apple-H, click FireFox, F10. Works great when dealing with over a dozen different windows (where in Windows your task bar gets really overcrowded or drops down a line; taskbar is very convenient, until it gets too full).

Durandal wrote:That's fixing a problem that doesn't need to exist in the first place. In any case, on Mac OS X, NSUndoManager makes this more than possible. But you're talking about caching the content of an entire web page in memory for an indeterminate amount of time. Sure, you could time out the action, but you'd have to maintain a separate undo stack, since text fields need their own as well.

Not that this is a terrible burden, but it increases the memory footprint without a clear need.

There should be the ability to undo any action that is liable to error; especially given how often tabs are closed. While a good method of choosing undo granularity hasn't really been found, the ability to undo windowing action should not be discounted. That extensions exist in Firefox to allow undo close tab (complete with resurrection of back/forward history) suggests that the feature is beneficial to someone. Extending such a feature to be application-independent would be extremely useful; easy undo when one accidentally moves/closes anything.

Durandal wrote:It's plenty easy to close a tab. Click the close button or press Command-W.

You're right. The keyboard shortcut is easy.

But as both myself and Destructionator XIII pointed out, having to hunt down the graphical button associated with the current tab is time-consuming. The tab bar is a mini-dock of all available windows associated with the application; it's inherently a shortcut system. The idea of placing buttons on each tab is the outcome of blindly applying window principles (having the close button associated to the window it applies to) without actually analyzing the benefit. Imagine the silliness of having little red buttons beside every Dock icon!

If this isn't the 'one true way', at least give the option. After all, while single-window Safari comes as default (with Tabs completely disabled, including associated shortcuts!), at least the functionality should be available. Don't follow the path of all those useful UI tools whose functionality was simply removed by Apple, windowshading and sticky folders chief amongst them.

Elessar wrote:There should be the ability to undo any action that is liable to error; especially given how often tabs are closed. While a good method of choosing undo granularity hasn't really been found, the ability to undo windowing action should not be discounted. That extensions exist in Firefox to allow undo close tab (complete with resurrection of back/forward history) suggests that the feature is beneficial to someone. Extending such a feature to be application-independent would be extremely useful; easy undo when one accidentally moves/closes anything.

"Beneficial to someone" doesn't translate to "worth the added complexity and memory footprint". Saying that every action liable to error on an operating system should be able to be undone is just retarded, frankly. Virtually every action on an operating system is vulnerable to error. It's a matter of determining which actions are most prone to error and proving undo support for them.

It's also a matter of not reinventing the wheel. If an error for a given action is easily correctable, there's no need for an undo stack for that certain action. In the case of a web browser, your page history will let you get back to where you were without actually drawing on your own memory. This is not true of text editing, for example.

But as both myself and Destructionator XIII pointed out, having to hunt down the graphical button associated with the current tab is time-consuming.

Which makes you less likely to accidentally delete a tab. A pound of prevention ...

The tab bar is a mini-dock of all available windows associated with the application; it's inherently a shortcut system. The idea of placing buttons on each tab is the outcome of blindly applying window principles (having the close button associated to the window it applies to) without actually analyzing the benefit. Imagine the silliness of having little red buttons beside every Dock icon!

Safari's tab bar is not the Dock. The Dock is a combination application launcher, task manager and window manager. Its duties in the last category have been seriously lessened due to Exposé. Safari's tab bar is there to manage web pages, not windows. A Safari window has a working set of pages, and you can have multiple windows, each with its own working set. This is not true of the Dock.

If this isn't the 'one true way', at least give the option. After all, while single-window Safari comes as default (with Tabs completely disabled, including associated shortcuts!), at least the functionality should be available. Don't follow the path of all those useful UI tools whose functionality was simply removed by Apple, windowshading and sticky folders chief amongst them.

There's such a thing as "too much choice". Having every copy of Mac OS X act the same, no matter whose computer you're using, is very helpful. Apple goes for consistency in behavior, and they make certain choices. You might not like the choice to give every tab a close button, but it has advantages. Firefox's tab-closing button almost requires an undo function because it's so easy to make a mistake. This is not true of Safari's implementation.

ray245 wrote:As for the customers...well I DUNNO about the USA, but here in asia, it's trendy for you to have top-line Handphone. (I don't use the word cell phone)

Basically, almost everyone will change their phone when their contracts need to be renewed after 2 years for most. Also, with each new contract and trade in, new phones can be subsidized up to $150-200.

Hence, I do believe that in asia, the IPhone CAN sell pretty well...and we teenagers are more than willing to spend money on good phones here.

Here in the US, they were having Sony Ericsson T-160 as the top-of-the-line phone in Aug 04 when we were already charging ahead with phones that were 2 or 3 generations ahead.

I was so glad to grab that Nokia 6288 (or something like that) from home the 2nd year I was back.

Yup...the americans mobile phone market is MUCH different from almost any developed asian countries market.

Praxis wrote:I can have five FireFox windows and three Photoshop windows and two word documents. If I'm working with FireFox, when I'm done, I hit Apple-H and all FireFox windows disappear, click Photoshop and hit F10 and pick the Photoshop window. When I'm done with that, Apple-H, click FireFox, F10. Works great when dealing with over a dozen different windows (where in Windows your task bar gets really overcrowded or drops down a line; taskbar is very convenient, until it gets too full).

I'm gonna have to try that today. Now it's a bit of a shame I don't actually juggle a thousand windows all at once, since it's a real joy to navigate them. It reminds me of SupCom's interface--with the infinite scrollout--that makes it so easy to zip around.

I remember the Mac having some kind of magnification tool? Is there a way for me to zoom in on just part of my screen, for detail clicking? I magine that would be a crazily useful thing for photoshop. I have to assume it doesn't work like that, or else we'd have heard of it.

Durandal wrote:"Beneficial to someone" doesn't translate to "worth the added complexity and memory footprint". Saying that every action liable to error on an operating system should be able to be undone is just retarded, frankly. Virtually every action on an operating system is vulnerable to error. It's a matter of determining which actions are most prone to error and proving undo support for them.

Or one could simply provide undo support for every action. Exactly how is this retarded? I would remind you that my original assertion for this level of undo granularity is strictly theoretical; I am aware of the implementation issues all too well.

Durandal wrote:It's also a matter of not reinventing the wheel. If an error for a given action is easily correctable, there's no need for an undo stack for that certain action. In the case of a web browser, your page history will let you get back to where you were without actually drawing on your own memory. This is not true of text editing, for example.

Page History is an incomplete history of the browser, which includes a stack of previously-visited sites specific to each tab. In addition, you're just proposing linking the undo button to a different (state-incomplete) undo-stack: page history is an undo stack.

Durandal wrote:Safari's tab bar is not the Dock. The Dock is a combination application launcher, task manager and window manager. Its duties in the last category have been seriously lessened due to Exposé. Safari's tab bar is there to manage web pages, not windows. A Safari window has a working set of pages, and you can have multiple windows, each with its own working set. This is not true of the Dock.

This is splitting hairs. You're pointing out the Dock does more than what I originally specified; that's very true. My original point stands.

Perhaps we could add a trash icon to the tab bar, and then force users to drag tabs there (or into the page) in order to make them disappear in a puff of smoke?

Durandal wrote:There's such a thing as "too much choice". Having every copy of Mac OS X act the same, no matter whose computer you're using, is very helpful. Apple goes for consistency in behavior, and they make certain choices. You might not like the choice to give every tab a close button, but it has advantages. Firefox's tab-closing button almost requires an undo function because it's so easy to make a mistake. This is not true of Safari's implementation.

Right, because disabling all tab-related functionality (including shortcuts) in Safari with the click of a preference pane is going to have every Mac act the same...

But that's just a source of inconsistency and doesn't really address the point. I understand your position and agree with quite a bit of it. As for 'Too much choice', it's a source of continual conflict. I'll just have to wait for a third-party to restore (hack?) the tools into the system, just like WindowshadeX.

Covenant wrote:

Praxis wrote:I can have five FireFox windows and three Photoshop windows and two word documents. If I'm working with FireFox, when I'm done, I hit Apple-H and all FireFox windows disappear, click Photoshop and hit F10 and pick the Photoshop window. When I'm done with that, Apple-H, click FireFox, F10. Works great when dealing with over a dozen different windows (where in Windows your task bar gets really overcrowded or drops down a line; taskbar is very convenient, until it gets too full).

I'm gonna have to try that today. Now it's a bit of a shame I don't actually juggle a thousand windows all at once, since it's a real joy to navigate them. It reminds me of SupCom's interface--with the infinite scrollout--that makes it so easy to zip around.

I remember the Mac having some kind of magnification tool? Is there a way for me to zoom in on just part of my screen, for detail clicking? I magine that would be a crazily useful thing for photoshop. I have to assume it doesn't work like that, or else we'd have heard of it.

The Alt, Command, and = key zooms in. Alt, Command, and - zoom out.

If it doesn't work, go to system preferences, go to universal access, and turn zoom on, then the key combination is activated.

ray245 wrote:Yup...the americans mobile phone market is MUCH different from almost any developed asian countries market.

While I was stationed in Korea in 2000, I remember seeing just about every Korean kid with two to three cell phones on their person. One was used for internet, and the other one or two were used for talking or text messaging. Those phones were tiny too.

jegs2 wrote:While I was stationed in Korea in 2000, I remember seeing just about every Korean kid with two to three cell phones on their person. One was used for internet, and the other one or two were used for talking or text messaging. Those phones were tiny too.

That's just ridiculous, it boggles the mind. Do they hate intergrated phones, or what? What do the Europeans use?

Elessar wrote:Or one could simply provide undo support for every action. Exactly how is this retarded? I would remind you that my original assertion for this level of undo granularity is strictly theoretical; I am aware of the implementation issues all too well.

Because the user then has to keep track of everything he can possibly undo. So if the URL field gets highlighted, he undoes a URL entry instead of tab closing. You can't just make everything undoable.

wrote:Page History is an incomplete history of the browser, which includes a stack of previously-visited sites specific to each tab. In addition, you're just proposing linking the undo button to a different (state-incomplete) undo-stack: page history is an undo stack.

So why make it undoable? You've already got the means to correct errors.

This is splitting hairs. You're pointing out the Dock does more than what I originally specified; that's very true. My original point stands.

No, it doesn't, because it's predicated on this supposed similarity. They're only similar in a trivial fashion.

Perhaps we could add a trash icon to the tab bar, and then force users to drag tabs there (or into the page) in order to make them disappear in a puff of smoke?

Actually, that's not a terrible idea, but you would probably want to make it so a tab can be dragged into its own window.

Right, because disabling all tab-related functionality (including shortcuts) in Safari with the click of a preference pane is going to have every Mac act the same...

I didn't say kill all preferences.