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I haven't tried Shaman at all, yet...
After my ten-day trial ran out (a day early!), I found out that a) there is no way for me to buy time without first upgrading it to a full account - that is, buying the game, and b) the Battle Chest comes out at the beginning of next month, and is vastly cheaper than it would be to buy the game and first expansion before it comes out. So, until I get the BC I'm stuck off of the game...

For anyone who's played a druid past 16, though: is the aquatic form any fun? I know it's not too useful in combat, but are there any really big bodies of water you can go swimming in?

And why the Master Enchanter is in Uldaman I'll understand even less (huzzah for having bought a port to Shatt, however).

Same for the Horde (and the same solution )

On the note of class "uniqueness," also consider this: One Horde race can be Pally, but three can be shaman; on the other hand, Three Alliance races can be Pally, but only one can be Shaman. It balances just enough, just happens to make BEs and Draenei a little too popular, especially with their already attached racial bonuses.

That's because before Burning Crusade the Horde couldn't play the Paladin at all, while the Alliance couldn't play the Shaman. They changed that with Burning Crusade by making the missing class available to the new races. Though it is interesting to see how many more Paladins there are with the Horde compared to Shamans in the Alliance.

Aquatic form is the butt ugly useless seal form they made so Druids can have one a travel form for each of the terrain.

Sadly water is poorly done and only a few areas even have something there, most of the time nothing worthwhile(unless seeing who was dumb enough to die by drowning.).

Ghost Rider wrote:Aquatic form is the butt ugly useless seal form they made so Druids can have one a travel form for each of the terrain.

Sadly water is poorly done and only a few areas even have something there, most of the time nothing worthwhile(unless seeing who was dumb enough to die by drowning.).

Really? Damn...I was hopeful, after swimming around for a bit while questing. It looked pretty cool...

Just how ugly is the seal form? I mean, I know it's got saber teeth (like everything else in WoW), but I was kind of looking forward to becoming a leopard seal.

As a 70 druid, I have fun with the sealion form, cruising Stormwind canals barking at people, beating wimpy naga in Blackfathom to death with my flippers, stuff like that.

It also helps on that long-ass run to Scarlet Monastery...

haas mark wrote: I seriously only question, though, while Undead have the ability to be rogues (requiring much agility), as well as locks/mages/priests (Sta/Int/Spi), why they can't be hunters.

For the simple reason that then every single horde race would be able to be one, which would be frankly retarded.

On the note of class "uniqueness," also consider this: One Horde race can be Pally, but three can be shaman; on the other hand, Three Alliance races can be Pally, but only one can be Shaman. It balances just enough, just happens to make BEs and Draenei a little too popular, especially with their already attached racial bonuses.

I maintain, and will continue to maintain, that distributing the unique classes to both sides remains one of Blizzard's dumbest fuggin' mistakes ever, right up there with arenas and the implementation of Tree of Life. I'm not even going to get into the absolute mash they've made of their own lore to make it work. And if they absolutely had to add shaman to the Alliance, it would've made more sense to have given it to the flippin night elves, not the bloody draenei.

D.Turtle wrote:Though it is interesting to see how many more Paladins there are with the Horde compared to Shamans in the Alliance.

A lot of "leet radiers" like to rag on shamans for two reasons: A. Lack of crowd control, and B. They can't do anything that other classes can't do as well. Magic dps? Mages and warlocks got it covered. Melee dps? Rogues and warriors got that. Healing? Priests, druids, and paladins tend to crowd things out.

The thing is, a lot of these "leet" players overlook the truly horrific amounts of damage a shaman can put out in a short amount of time. I don't exaggerate when I say that I've seen elemental shamans hit 4.5k with a lightning bolt or a melee shaman's windfury go off for about 4000. Shamans excel at burst damage, it's a simple lack of experience playing alongside them and a touch of arrogance that some of these "leet" players (on both sides, not just alliance) that brings out the hate. In addition, the shaman class is easy to manhandle if you don't know what you're doing and that can cause bad impressions.

D.Turtle wrote:

And why the Master Enchanter is in Uldaman I'll understand even less (huzzah for having bought a port to Shatt, however).

Same for the Horde (and the same solution )

Heh. Now why does it cost more for artisan tailoring/enchanting than for hebalism/alchemy?

On the note of class "uniqueness," also consider this: One Horde race can be Pally, but three can be shaman; on the other hand, Three Alliance races can be Pally, but only one can be Shaman. It balances just enough, just happens to make BEs and Draenei a little too popular, especially with their already attached racial bonuses.

That's because before Burning Crusade the Horde couldn't play the Paladin at all, while the Alliance couldn't play the Shaman. They changed that with Burning Crusade by making the missing class available to the new races. Though it is interesting to see how many more Paladins there are with the Horde compared to Shamans in the Alliance.

I know that it's because of BC. And I agree, it's equally retarded. But they have to keep those 12-year-olds happy, don't they? >.> Also, pally vs. shanam reeeeeeeeeally depends on the server. On Runetotem, it's rare (for me) to see a healer of any sort, especially late night, but enhancement shammys abound on the Alliance side like you wouldn't believe.

Kuja wrote:For the simple reason that then every single horde race would be able to be one, which would be frankly retarded.

They allow 13-year-olds to even play this, and THIS is your concern about the retardedness?

On the classes, see above.

Kuja wrote: The thing is, a lot of these "leet" players overlook the truly horrific amounts of damage a shaman can put out in a short amount of time. I don't exaggerate when I say that I've seen elemental shamans hit 4.5k with a lightning bolt or a melee shaman's windfury go off for about 4000. Shamans excel at burst damage, it's a simple lack of experience playing alongside them and a touch of arrogance that some of these "leet" players (on both sides, not just alliance) that brings out the hate. In addition, the shaman class is easy to manhandle if you don't know what you're doing and that can cause bad impressions.

Having played a shaman quite a bit, and raided alongside shaman on my main, I have to second this--a lot of people underestimate them.

At the same time, the class had a few serious flaws. The problems with shamans are, or at least were when I was still playing, excessive threat generation (due to high burst damage), unreliable burst damage, and in the case of enhancement spec being damned painful to PvP with.

That 4k windfury crit is great and all, but as a shaman it always feels like you only get them when the mob or player is just about dead anyway. Or as your opening attack against a really nasty mob and you find out the tank hadn't generated quite as much threat as you thought he did.

The LEET specialists don't understand that shamans are generalized support. They don't heal as well as a priest, or tank as well as a warrior, but they can play both roles as needed.

I have a level 69 shaman now, and there are numerous time when I have switched roles from healer to fighter during an instance depending on what we were facing, or sometimes even in the same battle. Most recently, I was playing healer to 4 of my fellow guildmates taking on an Outland elite/boss mob and, towards the end of the engagment after a coulple of us were dead (it was a tough mob) but the mob almost dead, switched over and dealt several hard blows and brought Mr. Bad down. After which I ressurected the dead so everyone could join the looting party. A priest couldn't have made that switch. Sure as hell warriors couldn't take on the healing role.

I've also been in battles providing damage when, noticing someone was about to get killed with the healer focusing on the tank, I could shoot out a healing spell and keep someone in the battle who otherwise would have gone to the graveyard, then gone back to whacking on the bad guys.

Druids are the only other hybrids that could hope to pull something like that off.

Shamans are great support for teams, by nature of what their buffs are and buff radius.

All three specs are a bit glaring in threat and mana generation in any long term but along with the Druid no one gives up Windfury willingly in a melee raid team. The difference is something to behold. Resto is used most because the gear is better(thank you Blizz...cocksucking whores) in that particular.

As for Paladin versus Shaman? Sorry it breaks down as such.

Every spec of the Shaman can be used to bolster a raid. Only one spec of the paladin is used in a raid because the other two got neutered by Blizzard. Protection lacks HIT POINTS. What the fuck was Blizzard even smoking?! The one thing that will happen to a tank is depletion of Hit Points, and this class gets the least of the defensive?! Retribution? Even when you get enough to do decent damage(Black Temple level), your threat rating is so out there, that it's better to take a blind, deaf, dumb, newbie Shaman.

All in all only dumbass raid leaders deny Shamans, and mostly use Paladins as tank batteries.

Ghost Rider wrote:Shamans are great support for teams, by nature of what their buffs are and buff radius.

Geez, how did I forget to mention that? Throw down some totems and either wade into battle or else hang back and heal. Great buffs - improved healing, improved mana regeneration, improved damage, slowing of mobs, grounding to avoid enemy spells, improving resistance to poison, nature, disease... Everybody with half a brain loves shaman totems.

Kuja wrote:

haas mark wrote: I seriously only question, though, while Undead have the ability to be rogues (requiring much agility), as well as locks/mages/priests (Sta/Int/Spi), why they can't be hunters.

For the simple reason that then every single horde race would be able to be one, which would be frankly retarded.

So? Every single Alliance race can be a warrior, including Gnomes. Seeing a midget tanking Nightbane is a lot more retarded than a Forsaken with a bow...

Kuja wrote:A lot of "leet radiers" like to rag on shamans for two reasons: A. Lack of crowd control, and B. They can't do anything that other classes can't do as well. Magic dps? Mages and warlocks got it covered. Melee dps? Rogues and warriors got that. Healing? Priests, druids, and paladins tend to crowd things out.

Shamans are pretty good for raiding, because their disadvantages can be evened out by other classes (no CC), aren't quite that severe in a raiding environment (No Anti-CC, Totem placement/range), while their advantages can be put to full use (crazy good Melee buff, good Caster buff). Shamans beat out any other class for raid cross-healing (Chainheal). Shamans have problems in the Arena - and thats where much of the focus has gone.

The thing is, a lot of these "leet" players overlook the truly horrific amounts of damage a shaman can put out in a short amount of time. I don't exaggerate when I say that I've seen elemental shamans hit 4.5k with a lightning bolt or a melee shaman's windfury go off for about 4000. Shamans excel at burst damage, it's a simple lack of experience playing alongside them and a touch of arrogance that some of these "leet" players (on both sides, not just alliance) that brings out the hate. In addition, the shaman class is easy to manhandle if you don't know what you're doing and that can cause bad impressions.

The burst damage is nice for PvP (though Resilience, along with the massive amounts of Stamina people have, has pretty much made the needed amount of burst dmg impossible to achieve), but a liability for PvE (where the sudden threat spike combined with no aggro dump ability - besides Ankhing - is undesirable). Most of the complaints you see from Shamans are concerned with PvP, where the disadvantages I mentioned before come into play a lot more.

Broomstick wrote:The LEET specialists don't understand that shamans are generalized support. They don't heal as well as a priest, or tank as well as a warrior, but they can play both roles as needed.

I have a level 69 shaman now, and there are numerous time when I have switched roles from healer to fighter during an instance depending on what we were facing, or sometimes even in the same battle. Most recently, I was playing healer to 4 of my fellow guildmates taking on an Outland elite/boss mob and, towards the end of the engagment after a coulple of us were dead (it was a tough mob) but the mob almost dead, switched over and dealt several hard blows and brought Mr. Bad down. After which I ressurected the dead so everyone could join the looting party. A priest couldn't have made that switch. Sure as hell warriors couldn't take on the healing role.

I've also been in battles providing damage when, noticing someone was about to get killed with the healer focusing on the tank, I could shoot out a healing spell and keep someone in the battle who otherwise would have gone to the graveyard, then gone back to whacking on the bad guys.

Druids are the only other hybrids that could hope to pull something like that off.

Shamans are very powerful up to around level 60. After that the effectiveness of the Shaman doesn'T increase all that much, while the effectiveness of most other classes gets an appreciable boost.
The generalized support and jack-of-all-trades role however, is pretty much useless in raiding content, because you are in the raid to fulfill a role - healing or dpsing. That little healing you can throw out as a melee shaman is irrelevant in a raiding encounter, while the damage you can put out as a restoration Shaman is pitiful to say the least (combined with the sad fact that for each spec/role you need completely different stats and equipment). If you don't raid, you will still have massive problems getting into 5-man dungeons if you aren't Healing-specced, because you have no CC.

Ghost Rider wrote:Shamans are great support for teams, by nature of what their buffs are and buff radius.

The need to replace totems every 2 minutes, along with the immobile, short-ranged totems are actually a big problem (not to mention the 5 hp, which severely limits the use of totems in PvP). Nevertheless, they do provide good support - they still have to be able to fulfill their role properly, as no raid can afford to take along a person simply to support others.

All three specs are a bit glaring in threat and mana generation in any long term but along with the Druid no one gives up Windfury willingly in a melee raid team. The difference is something to behold. Resto is used most because the gear is better(thank you Blizz...cocksucking whores) in that particular.

Resto is used the most because of one spell - Chainheal. Earthshield helps a bit, but Chainheal is where its at. Itemisation could be a lot better for the other two specs, but Chainheal is just to powerful in comparison.

As for Paladin versus Shaman? Sorry it breaks down as such.

Every spec of the Shaman can be used to bolster a raid. Only one spec of the paladin is used in a raid because the other two got neutered by Blizzard. Protection lacks HIT POINTS. What the fuck was Blizzard even smoking?! The one thing that will happen to a tank is depletion of Hit Points, and this class gets the least of the defensive?! Retribution? Even when you get enough to do decent damage(Black Temple level), your threat rating is so out there, that it's better to take a blind, deaf, dumb, newbie Shaman.

I have never seen a retribution Paladin, so I can't comment on them, but agreed with the protection Paladin.

All in all only dumbass raid leaders deny Shamans, and mostly use Paladins as tank batteries.

Yeah, thats the power of Paladins - the ability to heal a single target forever (along with the Blessings that every raid needs). Shamans are there to heal the rest of the raid. They actually complement each other quite well.

D.Turtle wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Shamans are great support for teams, by nature of what their buffs are and buff radius.

The need to replace totems every 2 minutes, along with the immobile, short-ranged totems are actually a big problem (not to mention the 5 hp, which severely limits the use of totems in PvP). Nevertheless, they do provide good support - they still have to be able to fulfill their role properly, as no raid can afford to take along a person simply to support others.

And that's relatively nothing for an attack buff that NO class can ever provide. I'm not contending that they only take the class because of support, but Enhancement Shamans can do DPS that make them easy to slot one into the Melee group.

Hell high end raiding melee group is

Enh Shaman
Fury Warrior(being phased, because MS warriors are easily catching up...so really Combat Rogue).
Combat Rogue
Feral Druid
Mortal Strike Warrior.

The Shaman easily puts out more then the Druid, and the Druid is at BEST a spot healer with a mana battery for innervate. The Druid has only two reasons being there...5% crit, and the ability to have that group heal itself while hitting crits. The Fury warrior and the MS warrior are there for their respective buffs to enhance one person...the Rogue, in fact Fury is being phased out because the MS warrior can nearly provide as much DPS, and this allows another Melee DPS into the group. Most Melee DPS groups are there for one class, to buff the Rogue.

So most Hyjal/BT raids use this group to basically support one person while providing their modicum level of damage.

As for PvP? Totems are not why anyone gives a fuck about Shaman, except a couple minor totems to screw around with. The fact they have a buff that can makes everyone faster, stronger for a small period is insane. This alone puts them as essential for a serious team. Having them, a Paladin, and three DPS makes your team monstrously powerful.

Paladins on the other hand are only healers...and in anything on the high end? Never your main. Priests in 2v2, in the 1900-2000 bracket are better because the shield is a small buff that can make or break a match, while Pally bubble is both dispelled by priests or just a very small stop gap. In 3v3, Druids rule for CC and healing, and in 5v5 Shamans or Priests are the best main, with Paladins healing them.

Resto is used the most because of one spell - Chainheal. Earthshield helps a bit, but Chainheal is where its at. Itemisation could be a lot better for the other two specs, but Chainheal is just to powerful in comparison.

Let's be honest, Pallies are Holy because of Flash of Light, because the spamming of it is the easiest way to keep a tank alive until real healing happens. Resto and Holy are extremely pigeonholed.

I have never seen a retribution Paladin, so I can't comment on them, but agreed with the protection Paladin.

And you almost never will because he needs BT level gear just to be competetive. In a melee DPS group Ret pallies fall short of every melee class, even to the point Survivalist Hunters can put comparable DPS on some level until Black Temple.

And when they get the gear? You see their threat is by far the most insane of the game, even with BoS. Blizz never fixed any of the threat problems of the tree that were evident since MC. Literally they have ignored Retribution, because by their own words...it's a leveling tree. Which is pure bullshit, but that's how Blizzard rolls.

Yeah, thats the power of Paladins - the ability to heal a single target forever (along with the Blessings that every raid needs). Shamans are there to heal the rest of the raid. They actually complement each other quite well.

Still the complaint is that most never see that. Paladins are always going to be Holy, which makes them easy for incompetent raiders to simply go instead of making a compliment of Shamans, because they think Pally healing is all that, when in fact Paladins only have longevity...not quality of heals.

And then you have Shamans who bitch, crow and whine when Blizz normalize their shit. The recent Windfury hurts the Rogue the most...but the ability to proc on ANY attack? It was broken because all the warrior had to do was Hamstring along with his attack rotation. It was beyond absurd how much he could put out and all he had to make sure was the threat level.

Course they assraped Haste, and gave Magic a better haste.....which fucks them over because it sucks mana faster and throws mana potion rotation out of whack. But this is another rant all in of itself.

So my bit is not the pure superiority of Shamans, but that they do have three viable trees, even unto raiding and most low level raiders don't see it and make shit like "Pally Buffs and healing is better!!", which honestly is at best debateable. And as you've said, CC is useless in the high end(which Mages/Hunters are still easily better at).

The Paladins are at the high end a Tank Healer for PVE or a healer for the real healer for PvP(It's sad, on a 5v5, you have the Paladin keep the main healer alive.).

I even said this a while ago in Broomstick's thread of one change, and that is itemization. This is what pigeonholes the Pally, makes Shamans look at time less viable, and causes all sorts of shit with the classes(Dragonspine Trophy is the winner...needed nerfs so it wasn't KING of DPS trinkets.).

D.Turtle wrote:The generalized support and jack-of-all-trades role however, is pretty much useless in raiding content, because you are in the raid to fulfill a role - healing or dpsing. That little healing you can throw out as a melee shaman is irrelevant in a raiding encounter

If it keeps your main healer from biting the dust, that's hardly irrelevant.

while the damage you can put out as a restoration Shaman is pitiful to say the least (combined with the sad fact that for each spec/role you need completely different stats and equipment). If you don't raid, you will still have massive problems getting into 5-man dungeons if you aren't Healing-specced, because you have no CC.

Funny, I haven't had a problem. In fact, I get invites to go on 5-mans all the time and I have an elemental shaman, not a healing one. Or maybe I just play with folks who have a grasp of what shamans can and can't do.

Ghost Rider, I agree with everything you just said. Supposedly Zul'Aman will help with the itemisation, though I hope that Blizzard has some clue about what those classes need.
And Shamans DO like to complain.

Broomstick wrote:If it keeps your main healer from biting the dust, that's hardly irrelevant.

Note I said in a raiding environment. In 5-man dungeons you can help here and there. Also, you have an Elemental Shaman, which means you at least have SOME +healing - which helps. The problem with the massive Item stats inflation that was created with BC and will be worsened with WotLK, is that the base damge/healing your spells do is not enough to be viable - they need item stats to make them effective. They are trying to address this problem with 2.3 for Melee Shamans - maybe that will help them a bit.

Funny, I haven't had a problem. In fact, I get invites to go on 5-mans all the time and I have an elemental shaman, not a healing one. Or maybe I just play with folks who have a grasp of what shamans can and can't do.

Heroic Dungeons is where CC is needed (unless you are overequipped), it is not quite that essential in normal 5-mans.

One thing I would like to see in WoW is the ability to communicate between Horde and Alliance players. Make it a difficult quest reward or something, but seriously...having two segments of the player population completely unable to talk to one another is just asking for acrimony and violence. Maybe there wouldn't be as much "Alliance are noobs!" and "Horde are jackasses!" junk around if they could actually talk to one another?

At least Tauren and Night Elves, anyway. I really can't think of any reason they wouldn't like one another.

Molyneux wrote:One thing I would like to see in WoW is the ability to communicate between Horde and Alliance players. Make it a difficult quest reward or something, but seriously...having two segments of the player population completely unable to talk to one another is just asking for acrimony and violence. Maybe there wouldn't be as much "Alliance are noobs!" and "Horde are jackasses!" junk around if they could actually talk to one another?

At least Tauren and Night Elves, anyway. I really can't think of any reason they wouldn't like one another.

actually early in the beta or alfa the faction could talk to each other but it was removed due players using it mainly to insult members of the other faction.

Quick note: Game wise, for solid burst DPS, nothing beats a Shadow Priest, fully geared in Shadow form with the full face melting tree selected. Better yet, with embrace, they can heal AND do Rogue quality DPS at the same time. In PVP this is gold, since Arrgo, is all PC generated. In normal PVE, this is death, since monsters see someone wearing cloth who's doing lots of damage, and healing the entire group. Priests can't go full shadow/face melting for long in PVE thanks to the gigantic hit points most creatures have.

However in the PVP side, I've seen Shadow-Priests handle two rogue's and a Shaman at once through use of talents+Fear effects. The only issue is of course Undead Rogue's who have the ability to get three fear away effects(Race,Class,Trinket), and they will stomp the heck out of any Shadow Priest if they get the drop of them. In the PVP side of things, Fear is what keep's Shadow Priests alive and fighting. In the PVE side of things, again that simply results in the Priest getting swarmed by the original mob and his 5000 friends.


Thus the fun that Blizzard set up, if you want to be a general PVP badass? Be a Shaman(You can handle anyone). Be a PVP King? Rogue(Invisible! Plus great ambush abilities), be the PVP God? Shadow Priest. However as noted, Rogue's are still useful outside PVP, so are Shaman's. But Shadow Priests get much less useful, they are second rate Priest after all. If they try to do anything but standard Priest hells, say hello to the respawn fairy.

Re: the shadow priest in pvp, IIRC they have some DOTs. WoW just had a patch update yesterday that kinda screwed with both them and locks yesterday, changing resilience to affect the amount of damage done by DOTs, where it used to really only affect spells and attacks that actually had a crit effect.

Kinda sucks for me, because I really wanted my lock (afflic specced) to be PVP when I get to 70...

Man, if you changed your spec everytime Blizz nerfed/buffed something, you'd never settle.

Our Sword Rogues are still Sword Rogues.

I just started playing WoW last week now that I have DSL.

I am currently a Lvl 19 Dwarf Hunter (Engineering/Mining) at Loch Modan. I went Alliance because I wanted to be a gun toter, and the Dwarfs passive +5 called to me.

Still looking for the epic Klasnikov rifle?

Belf shadow priest here

Anarchist Bunny wrote:I just started playing WoW last week now that I have DSL.

I am currently a Lvl 19 Dwarf Hunter (Engineering/Mining) at Loch Modan. I went Alliance because I wanted to be a gun toter, and the Dwarfs passive +5 called to me.

...Tauren hunters automatically get guns, too, yo. But trolls get a passive plus to thrown weapons and bows (and I think crossbows, too?). And yet my trolls are a holy priest and a shaman I have yet to play.