World in Conflict - Released! Thread

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2000AD
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Post by 2000AD »

MKSheppard wrote:Infantry is near useless.
Infantry is awesome. All you need to do is keep them away from wide open spaces and into places that have plenty of buildings or forests, thus minimising their only weakness (they die easily).
They're the only class that is pretty much completely self sufficient, they can take on anything with the right units, unlike, say armour, that needs a support player providing AA or they get raped by helos.
Not only that but they get the paratroopers support option for only 5TA, which is a massive bargain, expecially since the paratroopers can call in what is essentially a 6-7 TA point artillery strike for free every minute.
They need to remove the useless "sprint ability" and give them "entrench" ability; in which they construct trenches, lay out barb wire, and dig log shelters, which then can withstand all but a napalm strike; and even can survive a nuke.

In short, make properly dug in infantry a bitch to remove; they'll get dug in like ticks; and you can't see them unless you're a scout helo or infantry unit
Ok so, speaking in gaming terms, you want to make it so you can make them invulnerable to just about everything. How would this maintain game balance?
Would it take them ages to dig in?
Would there be limitations on where they can dig in?
Protect against everything but the napalm TA? What about Poison Gas? Even if it does protect against the blast how does it protect against the radiation from the nuke?
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Post by Stark »

Shinova wrote:I've heard some complaints in other RTS forums that all the sides in WiC are basically mirrors of each other, only with different abilities. How true is this, and does it really bother you?
It's 100% true, and they don't even have different abilities. The only point of difference is either cosmetic (like the appearance of TA) or the heavy arty difference.

If this bothers you, please don't play and then whinge about how tactics are impossible unless one faction is bio, one faction is tech and one faction is regular. I'm serious, I've seen this a thousand times. :)

And Shep, infantry are the most underestimated, most awesome role. Your continued inability to understand game design aside, infantry is all about stealth and surprise. Being underestimated itself is a boon. Buildings already make your infantry almost invincible (it's far easier to just LGB the building than dig them out).
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Post by ray245 »

Well too bad your infantry cannot charge and storm into enemy occupied building.

Well...don't worry about all the units being the same. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before someone created a 'unequal' or realisitc mod to World in conflict.

Where we get things like US tanks having a longer range or something.

Or Russian heavy choppers can transport troops around.
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Post by Vanas »

As a fan of infantry, I can only say one thing:

Guys, would it be that hard to buy some gas masks? Sure, popping tanks from cover is good, but I'm sick and tired of seeing those things pop some smoke then have their commander pop green smoke over me.
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Post by Laughing Mechanicus »

Vanas wrote:As a fan of infantry, I can only say one thing:

Guys, would it be that hard to buy some gas masks? Sure, popping tanks from cover is good, but I'm sick and tired of seeing those things pop some smoke then have their commander pop green smoke over me.
I'm pretty sure the chemical agents being used are advanced enough to not be stopped by gas. Troops would need to wear full coverage NBC protection gear to stand any chance, and that stuff is extremely tiring to wear. It also takes a long time to put on, so it isn't much use when the only warning you have is the plane swooping down to bomb you.

In game terms though it's quite an expensive attack TA wise. So any enemy that uses it on you is unlikely to be able to do so again if you attack him immediately. If you keep getting gassed send a unit ahead of your main infantry to engage the enemy, this will quite often bait them into using the gas prematurely; you can use the time he considers himself safe while the gas clears to sprint around the gas cloud and get at his flanks.
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Post by MKSheppard »

2000AD wrote:Infantry is awesome. All you need to do is keep them away from wide open spaces and into places that have plenty of buildings or forests, thus minimising their only weakness (they die easily).
That pretty much eliminates a lot of maps. And if the only place they work well is buildings and forests....well, then the forests+buildings won't last long; and unlike a lot of other classes, you can't move away fast enough to not get caught in the strike...
They're the only class that is pretty much completely self sufficient, they can take on anything with the right units, unlike, say armour, that needs a support player providing AA or they get raped by helos.
I've noticed that the Infantry unit also carries a small amount of SAMs....
Not only that but they get the paratroopers support option for only 5TA, which is a massive bargain, expecially since the paratroopers can call in what is essentially a 6-7 TA point artillery strike for free every minute.
Didn't know that.
Ok so, speaking in gaming terms, you want to make it so you can make them invulnerable to just about everything. How would this maintain game balance?
Stupid gamebalance. Everything must be game balanced! *kills the son of a bitch who thought of balancing differing styles*
Would it take them ages to dig in?
Probably a minute or two in game terms; digging the kind of fortifications I imagine is not an easy task. And once they're dug in, they can't move unless they abandon the fortifications.
Would there be limitations on where they can dig in?
No entrenching in rocky ground or in urban areas...how the hell do you dig into reinforced concrete slabs?
Protect against everything but the napalm TA?
Do you have any idea how really hard it is to kill someone in a trench or bunker? You have to score all but a direct hit, becuase they'll be well protected against blast and fragmentation effects.
What about Poison Gas?
That's actually quite stupid; considering in the cutscenes, we see a M-60 gunner and assistant wearing MOPP suits while blazing away.
Even if it does protect against the blast how does it protect against the radiation from the nuke?
:banghead:

Have you read military FMs? One of the recommended "protect against nasty radiation Woo woos" is to roll into a ball at the bottom of a trench, where the earth and the angles will protect you from radiation.
Last edited by MKSheppard on 2007-09-30 03:52pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Stark wrote:And Shep, infantry are the most underestimated, most awesome role. Your continued inability to understand game design aside, infantry is all about stealth and surprise.
I've tried that, hiding in forests. Doesn't do a damn thing, since all the enemy will do is call in Napalm or artillery.
Buildings already make your infantry almost invincible (it's far easier to just LGB the building than dig them out).
Or just to call in a heavy artillery barriage and level the area.

Infantry might work in a TA limited points game, but in most situations where the amount of firepower is being thrown around, they're useless; they move too slow to be of any use, and die too easily to be of use in holding areas.
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Post by MKSheppard »

More to the point, is Support even needed at all as a class? To me, it just seems like a way to take away the most useful assets in the game from everyone.

I can understand this with the Heavy Artillery units, especially the MRLS units, they're ungodly powerful, but for everything else, it makes no sense.

Shouldn't armored units be able to have their own medium artillery units, considering that the medium artillery units are all basically mortar carriers, except for the Soviets?

Likewise, Infantry should have their own light artillery units, like a squad of infantry lugging a 81mm mortar around on their backs.

Same thing for anti-air units. There needs to be a light AA unit along the lines of something like a Humvee Avenger, or a Soviet truck with a quad 14.5mm HMG in the back that everyone can buy.
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Post by Shinova »

Stark wrote:It's 100% true, and they don't even have different abilities. The only point of difference is either cosmetic (like the appearance of TA) or the heavy arty difference.

If this bothers you, please don't play and then whinge about how tactics are impossible unless one faction is bio, one faction is tech and one faction is regular. I'm serious, I've seen this a thousand times. :)
It's not a matter of tactics, it's a matter of longevity, or rather variety. Just a concern of mines.
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Post by MKSheppard »

It just comes down to two really playable factions:

Armor and Air.

It's actually cheaper and faster to buy an airstrike to kill enemy helos or build your own medium helicopters to kill enemy helos than it is to hope that someone will actually show up with an anti-air unit.

And even if you build heavy anti air units, and group them together in a group of 3-4, a determined attack by a heavy helo group will result in them destroyed, but your AA units heavily damaged and attrited; making them useless for the points you spend on them.
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Post by Lonestar »

So, I just got off the Liberty Island Map(first time I played it in MP) and there was this shitbird Infantry player on our team who was useless.

Cottoneyejoe: i need a ride to the Island
Me:I got a buncha BTRs ready dude, hop in!
Cottoneye: i want a Helo ride
Me:No one was transport helos, just hop in the Amphibs and let's go.
Cottoneye: No. i want a helo ride.
Me: fine *drives off*

Guy continues to bitch about how he wants a helo ride(with something like 10 squads of demolition engineers for some damn reason :wanker: ) then he says "ur all faggots" and leaves.

You know, this game so far has been pretty good at weeding out the shitbirds that normally play online games(what with the game making you do stuff like "tactics" and other such crazy shit) but every now and then you meet one you want to just reach through the internet and choke the motherfucker out.


(we lost the match by the way)
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Post by Stark »

MKSheppard wrote:I've tried that, hiding in forests. Doesn't do a damn thing, since all the enemy will do is call in Napalm or artillery.
You know, Shep, you'd look like less of an idiot if you stopped making bold statements that are TOTALLY WRONG. Clearly you can't get your head around the stealth nature of infantry in this game - just like you can't get your head around anything in a game that isn't ZOMG REALISTICZ. If you are hiding, and you fire, they know you're there! Why would you fucking stay there? The sprint power is the only reason infantry can even survive, moving from cover to cover.

Wait. You DO know that infantry is invisible inside a building or cover until they fire, right? You DO know that the first thing you do is set 'hold fire'? Wait till tanks roll past, fire, kill them, then run like a bastard from the inevitable counterattack?
Or just to call in a heavy artillery barriage and level the area.

Infantry might work in a TA limited points game, but in most situations where the amount of firepower is being thrown around, they're useless; they move too slow to be of any use, and die too easily to be of use in holding areas.
Wrong. If my 800pt AT squad takes 2 napalm strikes to kill (usually it takes more, but sometimes they get lucky) you've won, you've made them waste TA. It's not anyone's fault but yours you just sit there and wait for the retaliation.

The fact that you think support is 'useless' when it's basically free, targetable TA, is truely bizarre. A good support player can win a map, and three BAD support players can lose a map... infantry and support are just non-standard roles aren't played the old-fashioned way. Most pub players (and you, Shep) can't use these roles, because they're not RTS-standard 'run around shotz teh tankz'. I'm rubbish with support myself, but in the demo I've won 'best player in match' with 'useless' infantry. :roll:
Vanas wrote:As a fan of infantry, I can only say one thing:

Guys, would it be that hard to buy some gas masks? Sure, popping tanks from cover is good, but I'm sick and tired of seeing those things pop some smoke then have their commander pop green smoke over me.
Being inside any vehicle makes you immune to gas. Gas takes a while to kill your guys, so even in forests a quick R+Y to make them 'sprint' to 'nearest transport' can save most of them. Outside forests gas is almost useless because it's so expensive and you can save most of your guys with vehicles anyway. If someone calls down a gas strike and doesn't totally wipe you out, he just wasted a shit-ton of TA. You win! :)

Sadly, Ray is right: infantry shooting at a building until the defending infantry are gone, instead of storming, is probably my only complaint.

EDIT - sorry, I just saw this, it's hilarious.
shep wrote:Stupid gamebalance. Everything must be game balanced! *kills the son of a bitch who thought of balancing differing styles*
Every game should be designed according to Shep's specifications! No other design goals are tolerable! If Shep doesn't know how it works, it's useless! :roll:

WiC is designed for tournament play. Like Starcraft, it's designed to be as balanced as possible. Next you'll say the T-90s look wrong, and people just won't care. :lol:
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Post by Vanas »

I must say, working alongside a decent team has improved my thoughts about the uncouth armour and air units.

Still not a huge armour fan, but it has it's upsides, I suppose. Air guys are fun, I thought. there's something about lording it over tankers and exposed peeps that appeals. Haven't quite got the hang of flares yet, mind.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Lonestar wrote:You know, this game so far has been pretty good at weeding out the shitbirds that normally play online games(what with the game making you do stuff like "tactics" and other such crazy shit) but every now and then you meet one you want to just reach through the internet and choke the motherfucker out.
<[SA]HatfulOfHollow> i'm going to become rich and famous after i invent a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet

<Volt9000> Forget stabbing people in the face over the Internet.... I'd become wealthy if I made a program where you enter someone's IP address and you can remotely sterilize them

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Post by Stark »

I'm not an armour fan (too slow, boring etc) but sometimes your team NEEDS a competent armoured spearhead to save the day, so I'll change for a bit. Outscoring people who have been using armour for 10 minutes in 2 minutes is fun.

With flares, you want to drop flares as you pass into the enemies range (ie, before they fire if we're talking HAA). They last long enough to fly in, fire a hellfire, fire rockets, and retreat. I'm not 100% sure myself if they cover the deploying chopper only, they appear to be like smoke and deflect any missile in the area. Against medium choppers, you have to decide if you think the enemy is a spammer or not - I usually wait for the first missile and then pop, while running to the nearest AA fort or HAA player. I personally enjoy spooking players with my medium choppers, even if my missiles are recharging: once the drop flares, my allied HAA or friendly medium choppers can move in on the now-defenceless enemy while I wait for my stingers to cooldown.

Also, remember flares don't work on guns. AA forts and medium AA will STILL rip you to shreds.

Lonestar, I've never seen a game on Liberty that wasn't a complete coordination fuck-up. I was Russians, spawning on Liberty, so most of my team took air/armour and drove over to the US spawn and uselessly engaged them for most of the match. Only my choppers and some allied armour and infantry were on governors... the only place that mattered. :roll:
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Post by Vanas »

Adrian Laguna wrote:<[SA]HatfulOfHollow> i'm going to become rich and famous after i invent a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet

<Volt9000> Forget stabbing people in the face over the Internet.... I'd become wealthy if I made a program where you enter someone's IP address and you can remotely sterilize them

From bash.org
What you need to do, is borrow that US pain-ray thing's design and set up all monitors to be able to emit that frequency. Voila! Hurting people over the internet.

We now return to our regularly scheduled carpet-bombing of the Red October.
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According to Starbound, it's a problem solvable with enough combat drugs to turn you into the Incredible Hulk.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Stark wrote:You know, Shep, you'd look like less of an idiot if you stopped making bold statements that are TOTALLY WRONG. Clearly you can't get your head around the stealth nature of infantry in this game
What, you mean like how I can see infantry moving in the trees on the other side of a hill?
If you are hiding, and you fire, they know you're there! Why would you fucking stay there?
Perhaps because it's the only cover, and moving around in the open in this game is SUICIDE?
Wrong. If my 800pt AT squad takes 2 napalm strikes to kill (usually it takes more, but sometimes they get lucky) you've won, you've made them waste TA. It's not anyone's fault but yours you just sit there and wait for the retaliation.
You might have a point....if TA was expensive. In WiC it isn't. You can get TA from virtually anything:

Attack an enemy? GET TA!
Sit on a point? GET TA!
Follow that armor guy with a humvee?? GET TA!

I have seen nukes used in back to back games of MP; and considering that theyr'e ungodly expensive to use; clearly, TA isn't a constraint on players.
The fact that you think support is 'useless' when it's basically free, targetable TA, is truely bizarre.
Considering that in most games of WiC, the only real limitation on your TA is how fast it "reloads"....you'll be swimming in TA points.

Which makes pretty much hiding in cover pointless. Because the first thing any smart player will do before he storms a town/point will be to swamp it in firepower; destroying cover and your infantry too. And considering that you have to hold the points in order to win the game; you will always have a ready made target rich environment.

Most pub players (and you, Shep) can't use these roles, because they're not RTS-standard 'run around shotz teh tankz'.
:roll:

It's virtually impossible to hold points with anything LESS than Armor, because only armor can survive the amounts of firepower that get thrown at points. You can take points with a nice heavy helicopter x 4 spam, followed by the heavy helos keeping watch over the point as your paratroopers parachute in; but holding the point; forget about it.
shep wrote:Every game should be designed according to Shep's specifications! No other design goals are tolerable! If Shep doesn't know how it works, it's useless! :roll:
I'd like for once, for military tactics to be implemented in a game, other than armor and unit facings; such as the true difficulty of rooting out dug in infantry from a strongpoint.
WiC is designed for tournament play. Like Starcraft, it's designed to be as balanced as possible.
Tournament Play. The bane of every fucking goddamn game since the dawn of time.
Next you'll say the T-90s look wrong, and people just won't care. :lol:
T-80Us actually. And no I don't care, as long as they look reasonably realistic.
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Post by Stark »

Thanks for confirming you're not using infantry stealth. Tanks don't see MY infantry when they're passing 5m away... until I destroy them and leg it. Oh wait, did I just wipe out a squad and get away scot-free, to watch the napalm and artillery fall uselessly on my former position? This certainly isn't both killing enemy and diverting TA and artillery from the armour players at all! Moving over open ground is suicide, because you're too stupid to use the 'useless' sprint function! Oh Shep you're such a card.

It's difficult to hold points with ANYTHING, given enough TA. Armour players have the advantage since they can spam out high-hitpoint cheap vehicles, but if the enemy wants to drop TA on it there's nothing you can do. Then again, you're probably stupid enough to take a point and sit there, even though OBVIOUSLY as soon as the point changed colour the enemy targetted strikes on it. It's not like infantry players have cheap vehicles to leave on points while they hide or anything.

That you say 'TA isn't a constraint on players' makes me fucking laugh. Thanks for that gem of wisdom, Shep, I'm sure we can all take you seriously now. :lol:

Thanks for responding to the fact that many players are very successful as infantry, and just repeating the 'I suck at it, thus it sucks' mantra. I still haven't got over your 'people will direct arbitrarily large amounts of TA at infantry squads but this doesn't help the team as TA is unlimited' claim. That's just fantastic. :lol: Just be honest - you don't 'prefer' military 'tactics' to be in games - you want to play every game according to your idea of tactics, and if it doesn't work ZOMG GAME SUCKS.

Oh christ, I can't stop laughing. I hear infantry is useless and TA is unlimited... just... wow... :lol:
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Post by Lonestar »

Stark wrote:
Lonestar, I've never seen a game on Liberty that wasn't a complete coordination fuck-up. I was Russians, spawning on Liberty, so most of my team took air/armour and drove over to the US spawn and uselessly engaged them for most of the match. Only my choppers and some allied armour and infantry were on governors... the only place that mattered. :roll:
Don't get me started...The two Light Tanks I had airlifted in were the only "heavy"(insomuch as they ain't BTRs) armor we had on Governors...why, we had 2 support players on the Northeast corner of Liberty Island whining that they couldn't hit anything! And the American team had to have had 6 or 7 sheridans. :x
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

Shep, if you need your dug-in infantry fix, try Opposing Fronts. The new British trenches and anyone in them are nigh-invulnerable to artillery and gunfire.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Stark wrote:Thanks for confirming you're not using infantry stealth.
Really? That case was involving a bunch of my infantry sitting in a ruined forest in the Apocalypse map; and I could see enemy infantry moving within the ruined forest on the otherside of the hill.
Oh wait, did I just wipe out a squad and get away scot-free, to watch the napalm and artillery fall uselessly on my former position? This certainly isn't both killing enemy and diverting TA and artillery from the armour players at all! Moving over open ground is suicide, because you're too stupid to use the 'useless' sprint function! Oh Shep you're such a card.
Because in Stark World, all cover is always within the reach of the "sprint" command. Plus, this is obviously how real world tactics work. We better go tell the Warwolves that all that digging they have to do is pointless and not worth it; they should just be champion sprinters!
Then again, you're probably stupid enough to take a point and sit there, even though OBVIOUSLY as soon as the point changed colour the enemy targetted strikes on it.
And you can't build fortifications on a point, or gain points if you don't hold it! So you're screwed either way. Don't hold the point, and not get pasted by artillery; or hold it and get pasted by artillery!

The only real solution to the point system, while not totally breaking it; is to make the size of each point significantly larger by several factors; so that you no longer have the small point area = always something there = easily covered by various TA effect areas.
It's not like infantry players have cheap vehicles to leave on points while they hide or anything.
So your solution to the broken point system is to only put cheap easily replaceable units on them, so that it won't matter if they get blown up?
That you say 'TA isn't a constraint on players' makes me fucking laugh. Thanks for that gem of wisdom, Shep, I'm sure we can all take you seriously now. :lol:
Considering the amount of firepower I've seen thrown around in games, up to and including nukes (even though they're incredibly wasteful), I'd have to say, yes, TA isn't a very big constraint.
Just be honest - you don't 'prefer' military 'tactics' to be in games - you want to play every game according to your idea of tactics, and if it doesn't work ZOMG GAME SUCKS.
If the game is going to use massive amounts of sheer absurd firepower, but doesn't offer us tactics to mitigate or reduce the effects of said firepower, then it sucks.

Infantry might actually be useful if it had something more useful than soft-skinned vehicles available for cheap; but no, Armor must have the rebate on the BMP-2, Warrior, and Bradley, despite those being infantry carriers!

And infantry must never be able to entrench, making them hideously vunerable to virtually anything; despite virtually every Infantry FM emphasizing entrenchment whenever possible.

Infantry's current ability to hide inside buildings as it currently stands is not a workable tactic -- A single building by itself is going to be LGBed as an obvious target; and large groups of buildings will be quickly reduced to rubble by sheer firepower.
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Stark
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Post by Stark »

MKSheppard wrote:Really? That case was involving a bunch of my infantry sitting in a ruined forest in the Apocalypse map; and I could see enemy infantry moving within the ruined forest on the otherside of the hill.
Unless you're claiming the little 'tree' symbol, representing camoflage, is lying, I don't see your point. I regularly ambush people with infantry. EVERYONE regularly does this. I get ambushed all the time by invisible infantry firing MANPADs at me out of forests. If you can't do it, it's a personal problem.
Because in Stark World, all cover is always within the reach of the "sprint" command. Plus, this is obviously how real world tactics work. We better go tell the Warwolves that all that digging they have to do is pointless and not worth it; they should just be champion sprinters!
You're fucking pathetic. You're cut off, miles from cover, and IT'S THE GAMES FAULT YOU DIE? Grow the fuck up. Again, people dodge from cover to cover all the damn time - and let's face it buddy, you only have to move a hundred meters in the 12s it takes napalm to come down. 20s is a more realistic figure, and if you can't get out of the strike area in that time that's a personal problem.

And I'd have thought anyone with a brain would have realised by now that games have little to do with real world tactics. Amusingly you're just proving my point about your utter inflexibility.
And you can't build fortifications on a point, or gain points if you don't hold it! So you're screwed either way. Don't hold the point, and not get pasted by artillery; or hold it and get pasted by artillery!

The only real solution to the point system, while not totally breaking it; is to make the size of each point significantly larger by several factors; so that you no longer have the small point area = always something there = easily covered by various TA effect areas.
Shep, stop being a wanker. I know you're not this stupid. I just pointed out that most people cap, then retreat, then WAIT FOR THE STRIKES TO STOP, then fortify. I win fort medals with infantry all the time, because you've got trucks to just park there. The danger time is right after you cap and the map obviously shows it changing hands, as the enemy can be 100% sure your units are in the area.

I'm glad you're not complaining about constant arty barrages denying points to the enemy being unrealistc, because that'd be fucking hilarious.
So your solution to the broken point system is to only put cheap easily replaceable units on them, so that it won't matter if they get blown up?
I'm starting to see why you suck at RTSs. By the time you get to the front your infantry has dismounted, and while they're hiding in trees they can't very well be in the trucks, can they? So maybe if you're going to risk something by being on the great big target point, it should be the surplus trucks?
Considering the amount of firepower I've seen thrown around in games, up to and including nukes (even though they're incredibly wasteful), I'd have to say, yes, TA isn't a very big constraint.
Since most games have a few nukes garnered either by someone saving up the whole match or a bunch of guys sending TA, this is just proving the efficacy of infantry distractions. Many players can't get 80TA in a whole match, and yet I can encourage people to waste 6TA on a napalm strike, usually several times PER SQUAD. Do the fucking maths.
If the game is going to use massive amounts of sheer absurd firepower, but doesn't offer us tactics to mitigate or reduce the effects of said firepower, then it sucks.

Infantry might actually be useful if it had something more useful than soft-skinned vehicles available for cheap; but no, Armor must have the rebate on the BMP-2, Warrior, and Bradley, despite those being infantry carriers!

And infantry must never be able to entrench, making them hideously vunerable to virtually anything; despite virtually every Infantry FM emphasizing entrenchment whenever possible.

Infantry's current ability to hide inside buildings as it currently stands is not a workable tactic -- A single building by itself is going to be LGBed as an obvious target; and large groups of buildings will be quickly reduced to rubble by sheer firepower.
As much as you've humiliated yourself already, I have to point out that thousands of people out there have already dealt with these issues. What makes them better than you is that you try 'real tacticz', and when they don't work you try them again, and complain. Other people play the game and adapt. I've never had any of the problems you've described, and the design of the points is intentional and essential to the flow of the game.

BUT IT MUST HAVE THESE FEATURES SHEP DEMANDS IT! If he sucks at it, it's broken! It's not REAL enough! :roll:
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Post by 2000AD »

Stark wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:Really? That case was involving a bunch of my infantry sitting in a ruined forest in the Apocalypse map; and I could see enemy infantry moving within the ruined forest on the otherside of the hill.
Unless you're claiming the little 'tree' symbol, representing camoflage, is lying, I don't see your point. I regularly ambush people with infantry. EVERYONE regularly does this. I get ambushed all the time by invisible infantry firing MANPADs at me out of forests. If you can't do it, it's a personal problem.
Bolded Sheps part which might shed some light on this. First off the forest is 'ruined', so like any other forest once it's hit by Napalm/Arty/whatever it loses it's defensive benefits.
Secondly the enemy was on 'the other side of the hill' to shep, so obviously they had been spotted by someone else, either another player or an ariel recon TA.

That said, infantry hiding in forests is the best AA available. Helos dont see it till it's too late and they lost one of their number.
Stark wrote:I'm not an armour fan (too slow, boring etc) but sometimes your team NEEDS a competent armoured spearhead to save the day, so I'll change for a bit. Outscoring people who have been using armour for 10 minutes in 2 minutes is fun.
I used to hate armour, but since I started playing with a support team mate regularly I've started loving it. Especially against Jeep rushers and light tank rushers.
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Post by Flagg »

There any player made maps out yet?
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Post by ray245 »

Soon I hope...is there a world editor in the full game?
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