StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Lord Sander wrote:

Admiral_K wrote:I could accept that it might not be legal according the the treay.
What irks me is statements like your first line "the treat of Algeron covers the phase cloak" as if they are fact. When the treaty was drawn up, I highly doubt that phase cloaks were even considered.

If the treaty stipulates that any device that makes a ship invisible to Romulan sensors is illegal, then that means that the phase cloak is covered by the treaty of Algeron, for it makes ships invisible to sensors. Whether by intent or side-effect is irrelevant.

But we don't know what the treaty stipulates. That is my point.

Admiral_K wrote:

Lord Sander wrote:

Admiral_K wrote:I could accept that it might not be legal according the the treay.
What irks me is statements like your first line "the treat of Algeron covers the phase cloak" as if they are fact. When the treaty was drawn up, I highly doubt that phase cloaks were even considered.

If the treaty stipulates that any device that makes a ship invisible to Romulan sensors is illegal, then that means that the phase cloak is covered by the treaty of Algeron, for it makes ships invisible to sensors. Whether by intent or side-effect is irrelevant.

But we don't know what the treaty stipulates. That is my point.

Then in that case, considering every Starfleet officer in the episode considered it covered by the treaty, most likely it was covered by the treaty.

Let me put this in print and see if it makes any more sense to me: the Federation (you know, the guys with the Prime Directive) are suddenly going to jump on a loophole in the Treaty of Algeron, one that very clearly flouts the intent of said treaty, because it's convenient to do so? It doesn't matter how the phase cloak performs it's function, or what the wording of the treaty is. This argument easily falls on it's face for two reasons:

1) Starfleet officers obviously regard it as a violation of the intent of said treaty in the episode in question.

2) Twitchy types in the Romulan military and Tal Shiar would undoubtedly also regard it as a violation of the intent of the treaty, possibly one worth declaring the treaty null and void and launching a full-scale war over.

So, even assuming that Picard represents a more stridently moralistic sort of Starfleet officer than average, Starfleet would still be unwilling to deploy phase cloaks on their ships in violation of the treaty because the risk of inciting a war with the Romulans would be too great.

I never made any attempt to peer into what would've happened. Merely, speculating on if there were a loophole.

Admiral_K wrote:I haven't been proven wrong because it is IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE ME WRONG.

Which is precisely why your idea is worthless.

Can you say with 100% certainty, that based on the wording in the treaty this device is banned?

Nothing is 100% certain, but the evidence we have leads to the conclusion that the phase cloak would have been covered by the treaty.

Sure the device has some of the characteristics of a cloaking device. Sure it makes it undetectable by other ships, but so does accelerating away at high warp.

Again, your example is completely unapplicable to cloaks since you can't sneak up and attack anything when you're running away.

You can bitch all day that a "cloaking device is a cloaking device is a cloaking device" but if the wording in the treaty is specific to bending light waves, masking drive emissions etc as standard cloaking devices do, then the phase inverter WOULD be legal under the treaty.

Only to a stupid lawyer.

Look at it this way: Mike Wong can never win the argument that "creationism" is completely invalid. The only thing he can argue is the way creation took place because that is the only thing he has access to. He can't look into what happens when people die, or look back to the origin of the universe. By the same token, neither can they, but they simply have faith that it happened in the manner they believe. You are in much the same boat here.

Yes but if you don't see the difference between the two positions, you are a complete idiot. Creationism is based on faith, evolution is based on evidence. The second method is much more reliable.

OK you want an answer to your possibility that the phase cloak might not be covered? Fine. It might not be covered but only IF the Feddies and Romulans are complete morons. However, the LOGICAL CONCLUSION BASED ON THE EVIDENCE is that it is in fact covered.

BTW, you're flat out lying.
Look at what you titled the thread:

Phase "cloak" shouldn't really have violated Fed/R

Here's your original post:

Lets think about this logically, What does a phase "cloak" have in common with a real cloaking device? Sure you can't see a ship that is phase cloaked but that is because it is in an alternate dimension. Its primary purpose isn't to "hide a ship" but to move that ship into another dimension where it wouldn't be able to be damaged by normal means.

If you call it a dimension altering device then it doesn't viloate the Feds treaty now does it? So the feds piss away a device that would have GREATLY aided them in their fights against the borg, and the founders because of SEMANTICS!

You weren't talking about possibilities at all. You were trying to say that the phase cloak definitely would NOT qualify as a cloak, all based on your unsupported idea that the device moves the ship out of this dimension/realm of space/whatever. You lying sack of shit.

Admiral_K wrote:I never made any attempt to peer into what would've happened. Merely, speculating on if there were a loophole.

A loophole you can't use is a loophole that may as well not exist.

Whatever I don't really care anymore.

My purpose was to show that it didn't operate like a normal cloaking device, therefore it shouldn't have been called such. Cloaking was not its primary purpose, rather the phasing which would have rendered it all but invulnerable to normal weapons.

How about you just don't read anymore of my posts ok Darth Servo? I'll gladly return the favor.

Admiral_K wrote:My purpose was to show that it didn't operate like a normal cloaking device, therefore it shouldn't have been called such. Cloaking was not its primary purpose, rather the phasing which would have rendered it all but invulnerable to normal weapons.

Given the funky nature of Federation weapons, it's quite possible that phasers could be altered to affect phase-cloaked ships easily, if you knew where they were. The Voth had personal phase-cloak devices, and Chakotay or Tuvok or someone disabled one by changing modulation(technobabble) on his hand phaser with a couple of button pushes. It may be that outside of cloaking and hiding in matter, there was no great tactical advantage to the phasing.