What YOU would like to see covered in 40K analysis.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

One other thing that might be worth doing - analysis of 40K aerial combat (albeit that might come in with doing Double Eagle).

That might have some embarrassing results. I loved the novel. Loved it's characters. Absolutely hated the retarded "rar Battle of Britain" style dogfights.

[Rye]

New update question.. (if a mod would please indicate the update so people might check)... I've got Xenology, Tactica Imperials, and the Sabbat Worlds Crusade book. I've considered covering them for some time, since I've done the uplifting primer and the Munitorum manual.

My question is, what would be people's preferencee in tackling them? Which first, whcih second, and w hich third? My own inclination is the Tactica Imperialis, but I'm curious what other people see.

In my opinion, I'd like to know more about Xenology and the aliens of the 40k-verse, since most things are about the Imperium and its capabilities, interesting information about the aliens of the galaxy might make a cool change.

[Darkdrium]

I'm also curious about the capabilities of the Necrons and how they are perceived by the rest of WH40K. I found some informations about their abilities, but nothing to the extent that satisfies my curiosity.

[Connor MacLeod]

One other thing that might be worth doing - analysis of 40K aerial combat (albeit that might come in with doing Double Eagle).

That might have some embarrassing results. I loved the novel. Loved it's characters. Absolutely hated the retarded "rar Battle of Britain" style dogfights.

Sorry, but missiles are not the be-all, end-all of fighter combat. They can be jammed, shot down, and you can only carry so many (and they can also directly impact your flight performance even when carried, ,IIRC.)

And with the weapons they do carry, range vs durability/damage capability is not an insigifnicant issue, nevermind the jamming/ECM vs targeting (or the kinds of targeting equipment) use is.

They do HAVE and use air to air missiles, and as others have always pointed out, the fact in Double Eagle that gets ignored is that there were availability issues in that instance. We've seen air to air (or rather, antifighter) missiles used in LEt the Galaxy Burn short stories, Execution hour, and (I think) Warrior Brood, possibly others. But its not their ONLY option. Against the proper kind of enemy, lascannon can do as well (or betteR) than lasers. and even their projectile weapons can get soem neat ranges (or rates of fire!)

Usually I also see reference to IA1 that "air to air missiles are rarely carried" by thunderbolts, but they never explain the reasons why. Supply problems are inconsistently good/bad, and it can't be lack of them or rarity- the Guard and Space MArines have TONS of missiles for ground to ground and ground to air attacking (Manticores and Whirlwinds can do anti-air roles, and most of those weapons tend to be little better/worse in a technical sense than a hunter killer missile..) and they certainly have anti-capship missiles... so that tends to argue another reason (As I said, missiles can have drawbacks compared to other weapons, and sincee the Imperium has otehr weapons like lasers at its disposal, a missile is not always going to be desirable.)

[Wanderer]

Connor is it possible to get some very realistic calcs on Space Marine's armor.

It gets tiring time and again to hear Space Marine Wankers say that their armor is proof against Lasguns, despite the Gaunts Ghost Novels and other literature saying otherwise.

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor is it possible to get some very realistic calcs on Space Marine's armor.

It gets tiring time and again to hear Space Marine Wankers say that their armor is proof against Lasguns, despite the Gaunts Ghost Novels and other literature saying otherwise.

I can put it on the list, but it'll be very complex. The problem being, I have to dig through alot of examples, and alof of the evidence I have I haven't presented yet.

There are other factors as well too. Right off the bat there's "energy vs Projectile" differences, but also "explosive vs solid", hand weapons, etc.. Then there's always direct vs glancing hits, and range can always play a factor.

And to be blunt there might be possible differences between Chapters, and that doesnt address things like CSM vs regular SMs.

I can probably do a very *broad* idea of how tough SM armour is given various examples (We know that it can resist individual or small numbers of lasguns, but thirty hellguns will let damage through, and a meltagun or plasma weapon is overkill.) We know it can resist most projectiles up to autocannon and heavy stubber fire (bolters are harder to measure, due to their hybrid nature and somewhat varying performance. Some novels indicate bolters can easily penetrate armour at close range, while others can withstand multiple.)

Carapace also gives a good idea of low end durabilities, if you're curious.

I'm sure Black Admiral has mentioned "hunter, prey" where 30 hellguns virtually melted the armour of a CSM's chestplate and injured the Marine beneath. And there's the melta example (and plasma guns elsewhere I believe.) From that you can place the energy resilience at somwhere in triple digit MJ to single GJ.

Against projectile weapons. .we have the ornithopter autocannon from Warriors of Ultramar, and numerous examples of heavy stubbers or Ork projectiles (Carapace is resistant to some of those, so so is Powered armour) You might rate the resilience of at least .50 to 30 mm rounds, at a minimum (though that doesn't totally address everything, such as hardness/density of the rounds, angle of impact, range, repeated hits, or conservation of momentum or reaction laws and the effects on the body.)

so, take those as a VERY tenative idea.

[Connor MacLeod]

While I'm still here.. another update:

I'm tenatively considering to further divide up the "misc 40K analysis" - the Non-BL/novel fluff stuff, into varying categories (some of which I described before)

The categories will be (broadly) as follows:

*1st/2nd edition stuff will be lumped together in a single thread, at least now. I might do it seperately, though from what I can tell there's some real overlap there which could make it harder. I think its just easier to leave it lumped together regardless of how big it is.

*3rd/4th edition together - this will be where the rest of the core rule fluff, codexes, and whatnot will go.

Of those two, I'm still decided whether or not I'll cover Epic together in there or seperately, ,or what to do with the rest of the BFG stuff I haven't touched on. They may go into their own categories, or separate ones entirely ("alternate/spinoff" game thread, basically.) 40K apocalpyse is in this category too, but given what I plan to do with IA and DH, I may also go with the "own thread" route.

*White Dwarf fluff will go into its own thread. That will deff be a huge undertaking on its own.

*Dark HEresy.. I have a HUGE amount of material there, ,just frfom two books alone. And I imagine there's more coming out.. sooo.. its own thread it gets.

*IA is DEFINITELY information dense, and that WILL get its own thread.

*The novels, books and such will still get their own threads.

The "Misc" analysis threads I've heard suggested or am planning go:

Titans

IG ground combat vehciles/tanks (possibly with artillery)

Aerial combat/fighters (may or may not include space fighters)

Exterminatus (Has been sitting on my Hard Drive for a LONG time, and may have to revise/break that up as I see fit.)

Armour durability (not just power armour.. I basically ought to cover it all.)

Other weapons (Plasma, meltaguns, flamers, etc.)

As time passes, I think I'll probably end up doing more "topic-oriented" analysis thread like the lasgun or bolter one, simply because they're easier means of revising/updating the data.. but even then it'll probably be laot of cross referencing. (Mind you, at the rate I am doing this.. it could take YEARS before I even get to that stage..)


Note that I'm not neccesarily done with older threads. I have gone back and revised/updated bits on the basis of new information, or made changes. At some point in the future once I've gotten much of this covered I may go back to earlier novels and revise/update stuff. Or calcs, if time permits.

Also, you may wonder why I handle this as I do. Well, to be blunt, I've kinda muddled along with some of this. When I started doing the nalayiss, I only intended to do the novels. The game fluff cropped up incidentally in cross referencing with the novels, and the "other" books (like the munitorum manual or the uplifting primer) were also accidental. The strucutre of how I handled this has also been evolving, so that's why some parts are more muddled than others.

The biggest problem is the scope of the task I have... I've got megabytes of data sitting on my HD.. and I've still gotten barely halfway through much of it. And there's still always more coming out (esp with 5th ed around the corner.. no clue when I'm goign to get to THAT, if I do.) Alot of you are more "current" on it than I do, but I am also hampered by the scope of what I am doing (tens of thousands of pages of text material to sift...). analysis can be time consuming as well, nevrmind double checking or revisions (And we all know I HAVE made errors in calcs!), and THAT is hampered by me learning new things with each new source I delve into.

Its because of all that why I don't really get into sorting this very much.. even though I've tried efforts at it. (And to be blunt, a search function should work if you know what to look for. Its not too mcuh to ask people to dig for 5-10 minutes to find what they need amongst the info, is it?)

What I'm doing here (and the point of this thread) is to really just get a broad idea of what you guys are interested in, so I can take that into the consideration of what I do in the future. I don't really have any definite timeframes in my head, even when I ask what you guys might like to see next and there are times I change my mind. But I still like the feedback regardless.

And, like I said... never hesitate to drop a PM to me if you have a question, request, or info. AS broad as I am covering this, I know there are things I am definitely missing.

[Setzer]

I'd really like to see an analysis of Necropolis. It was the first 40k book I ever read, and it's still one of my favorites.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

If it's at all feasible, you might want to cover Let the Galaxy Burn, or even all the 40k short stories.

[Cykeisme]

I can think of one topic I'd like to see covered in some depth, somewhere down the road: power weapons.

I've noticed the tabletop game oversimplifies by allowing a power weapon attack to simply ignore a target's armor save, but the higher simulation "resolution" of Necromunda, Inquisitor and Dark Heresy seem to indicate a similar effect to lightsabers; sufficiently thick, strong and/or dense armor still provides a measure of resistance and therefore, protection, against a hit from a power weapon.
More "fluff" descriptions would be nice.

As I understand, there are a lot of similarities with lightsabers, applying energy from an internal storage battery/cell to break apart the bonds in a material, and assisting in causing the resistance of a material to yield, through a combination of both thermal and mechanical effects (when combined with the physical force exerted by the user).

However, more in-universe explanations on the nature of the technology's mechanism, as well as some quantifications of their capabilities and limitations (especially the latter; we already know it cuts through some armour!), would be much appreciated.

[Connor MacLeod]

If it's at all feasible, you might want to cover Let the Galaxy Burn, or even all the 40k short stories.

I've got that one written up. I may cover it AFTER I get past Honour Guard and finish up with dealing with Tau wank. I want to cover it mainly because it has alot of analyiss on a variety of topics (including a laspistol head vaporization. well partial head vaporization, starship weapons combat, starfighters, etc.)

I've gotten quite afew of the other short story collections and considered covering them (Deathwing, Deadzone, What Price Victory, etc.) but I'm debating that.

I'd really like to see an analysis of Necropolis. It was the first 40k book I ever read, and it's still one of my favorites.

After the Tau wank is covered, that will be next, then Honour Guard

I can think of one topic I'd like to see covered in some depth, somewhere down the road: power weapons.

Power weapons *generally* don't get quantified all that much, at least they're not easily quantifiable because they generally will combine momentum and KE as well as the effects varying according to source/edition and author. The actual (mechanical) stuff will probably depend greatly on the fluff, though as I said I can at some poin in the future try covering various wepaons as well.

Perhaps what I should do is create some "misc" questions thread where technical stuff like this can be asked and I (or other people, since there ar alot of other knoweldgable sots here) could answer them.

[Connor MacLeod]

Further update:

I'm still bogging down on Imperial Armour, as I just realized there are Two types of IA books I've seen.. the big ones and more recent ones (the ones that include Taros, Vraks, Anphelion, etc.) As well as "older" editions that tended to not only focus on the IG and Space Marines but also Chaos, Tyranids, Etc. I'm adding those because they tend to have stats that were excluded in the "later" books, and some of that could be useful for analysis (although others, like the 125 mm calibre, 410 m/s muzzle velocity Earthshaker cannons, are downright funny.)

I have gotten some free time recently so I have made progress.. so I think I'll get this covered soon. Which means I'll go next onto Xenology, as I plan to have some vacation time, and I Want to plow through most of this as quickly as I can. Or, I may start taking a break from IA because frankly, this has beocme the most information-dense text analysis I'll be doing this side of Let the Galaxy Burn. TAros I project will top out at over 100k in text (this is something close to 30-40 pages of quotes, an that is WITHOUT analysis..) And some of the others get close to the 20 page mark pretty easily.

Due to that, I'm thinking I may have to do the IA supplements more or less seperately (I may lump in some of the more minor stuff, like lumping the "old" and "new" IA1 stuff together, since it covers similar topics - Imperial vehciles)

Which brings me to yet another question:

I'm tempted to start the IA stuff, but I'm aware people would like to see some of the other books (IE Xenology) covered. So...

a.) Would people like to see IA stuff start to be covered

or

b.) Xenology, Tacitca Imperialis, and SWC? I'll probably start with xenology, though I'm groaning at covering that (Its a big book, and its got PAGES of text, even if there are lots of pictures too)

I do have Dark hEresy covered, but I'm not going to get into that.. though when I do, Dark Heresy will perhaps be some of the more quantitatively useful stuff.

I'm also hafl-temtped just to throw my old Exterminatus essay out into the open and let folks read that, though it needs alot of work (so it may become, like all the others, an ongoing work in progress.)

Thoughts?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I think you should save Xenology for later. It has a lot of background information, but I don't recall too many events that need to be quantified vs straight up info dumps along the lines of "Tau Etherials have the same pheromone organ as the Qorl, who lived halfway across the galaxy from them."

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, what else would you like covered (non novels, since I have that planned out... and the misc stuff will be covering the alien codexes.)

Usually I have a third niche to cover (sadist that I am).. and thus something along those lines. for this purposes I'm including the WD magazines, Dark HEresy, and Imperial Armour, since they're "spinoff" sources, basically.

In that vein, I may also consider doing the Necromunda, Inquisitior RPG, and other stuff separately from the core rules as well.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

My mind spins just from hearing about all the material you plan to cover. What do you think you'd enjoy doing more? I tend to think of the Imperial Armour books as being less canon than most GW books and BL novels, but only because their published in-house by Forgeworld. But if you want to cover tanks, trygons, and greater daemons, you should definitely hit it.

Hell, I'm overwhelmed from the choices.

[Venator]

The Imperial Armour Volume [X] are more recent than the Imperial Armour (no Volume) [X] ones.

What you said about some of the stats being funny - by far the worst I saw was an "armour equivalence" spec that had a Land Raider's hull equivalent to 365mm of "conventional steel" (i.e. less than modern tanks, if taken literally).

There's a few ways to interpret it so it makes sense, but I wouldn't get too excited about the statistics in the early IA books.