How do YOU see the board?

[defanatic]

I mostly lurk. I sometimes post in the gaming and computers board, but I read N&P, OT, SLAM, OSF, and ARSE if I'm bored.

Mostly because I don't have very much interesting to say, or if the thing I want to say has already been said, I won't say it again, having read the rules about "me-tooing". Yeah. That last bit happens a fair bit.

[The Romulan Republic]

I suppose we could also fold "pure Star Trek" into "Other Sci-Fi", archive the ST vs SW portion, and essentially close down two low-traffic forums... or just combine them all into one "General Sci Fi" discussion, since even the "Pure Star Wars" board doesn't get much traffic except the the thread about the new Clone Wars series.

I think there's enough to keep PSW open, given Clone Wars (and the talk about a live action Star Wars series in a little while). PST may be worth keeping open as well with the new movie. As for Trek vs Wars, its basically dead, which just means closing it will have no real effect on anything. And its always possible someone will post a something in the future that belongs their. In any case, since these are low trafic forums, would closing them have any real effect? Strikes me more as an easy gesture towards reorganization than anything that'll have a real effect. There's no real problem with closing them maybe, but it seems like something that would have little effect.

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[Raj Ahten]

SD.net for me is a place of entertainment for me, that and I can sometimes get some interesting defense news tidbits from the Heavy Armor Brigade types. I also do like hearing from members of the board who live in other countries or have different life experiences from me. The stories people tell about their own lives and non American viewpoints like Stas Bush's are a big reason why I come to this board.

A lot of people here really do seem to enjoy a no holds barred debate to the death. I'm just not a confrontational sort of person so getting involved in the debates here often seem to be more of a chore than fun for me, so I mostly steer clear of posting in News and Politics and the like. I mainly stick to the STGODS now which have given me a much needed role-playing fix.

[Cairber]

I like coming here to talk about subjects that interest me; I love that I can come here to talk about parenting in a sound, logical way (and I know sometimes threads like these are rare- which is why I don't post too much but I still read)

I like learning how to debate more efficiently.

And, even when months go by without a thread I am compelled to post in, I still come back and read to learn but also because this board played a big role in my transformation from something mindless to a more rational and thoughtful person.

[Falkenhayn]

Asking questions is also difficult here. Many times when somebody not well established asks a question in n&p, the thread seems to go "No you ignorant piece of shit, [answer to question]" as if going in guns blazing expecting another flamewar/debate, to which the questioner replies "Ok, sorry for asking " Granted this doesn't happen all the time, but I've seen it on many an occasion.

This one really bothers me. I can see losing your patience in a debate, or seeing someone post an opinion which makes you really angry, and overreacting, but this always comes off as sheer bullying, especially since it's usually aimed at newbies.

To add, I do what Ericxihn is talking about all the time in HAB, and some times in N&P. I really can't remember the last time somebody gave me both barrels; normally Stuart or Skimmer give me the answer I'm looking for and then some. Likewise with the 40k'ers, though there I have a modest reputation, I think.

[Axis Kast]

Bounty put it very eloquently. He voiced an opinion that I could never quite articulate myself: people dismiss those with opposing viewpoints as barbarians, then complain loudly that there's "just no getting through to these people."

Rarely is there any attempt to investigate what makes Republicans tick outside "the Bible," "the propaganda from Faux News," or "redneck racism." Most Americans, in other words, report that Democratic candidates are weaker on security issues . . . because "the television tells them to." From A, we somehow get to Z. Forget all the issues and intermediary values in-between. Forget talking about how to change things; what kind of arguments need to be crafted to convince people; and how to make them feel comfortable absorbing new information. It's as if religious, conservative people are aliens about whom most members of this board know absolutely nothing.

And let me say to Metawaddle that I'm not arguing that political views should be granted special protection. I do feel that religious views are fairly sacrosanct, but in the sense that they don't need to be trashed (which doesn't seem to happen here at the personal level). The fact of religiosity can be divorced from the political views developed therefrom. Those can have their own hearing. Again, Bounty had it right: we need to respect people, even if we disagree with them. It's possible to have a talk with someone and walk away calm. Calling somebody names and declaring that you've won the Internet doesn't change a thing. A good conversion might.

[Enigma]

I'd like to see PST and PSW fold into OSF as subforums and rename OSF to Science Fiction. Take down ST vs. SW and archive it for posterity while opening up a subforum in OSF titled "Sci-Fi Versus".

Make Fantasy strictly a discussion forum while a subforum for fantasy versus?

My opinion on this board is that I try to tread lightly and have to have a thick skin. I feel that for anyone to survive here they'd better grow asbestos skin. I also find that a few people here are rapid to insult\flame you if you post something that disagrees with them for whatever reason. For example, I have problems with reading comprehension and I have to be careful whenever I read something because I know that if I make an error when replying I know that there is a very good chance that someone will chew me out which has happened before. I seriously doubt that the board will be a kindler, gentler board in the near future and therefore being thick skinned is a good asset to have. You bunch of shit flinging, cock munching, crack smoking, donkey fuckers.

As for the Senate, I don't fear them. I find that they are a source of entertainment. As for being shortstaffed, start nominating within the Senate to positions of power so the board can be better monitored and oppressed?

[Ariphaos]

I don't really consider the senators to be intimidating. I don't even see it as a sort of badge of honor, especially not after my debate on RKV's with Patrick Degan. To me being a Senator means you're trusted to edit your posts in the debate forums. Whoopie. It doesn't save you from being a dumbass, it just means I need to make another post on occasion. Not that restricting who can edit is a bad thing, but outside of seeing who's up for banning and enjoying the fireworks, it serves no real purpose.

The need to win seems to overwhelm the need to be right in most active people here, and they back themselves into a corner rather than admit they're wrong, or twist their position into one of violent agreement. I'm not immune to this, I know, but damn is it common. It's probably the defining board culture. Your e penis here is measured by your ability to either outlast or outsmart other people, and dealing with the former is tiring.

I respect Kuroneko, but honestly, I'd be suspicious of anyone who didn't. Most everyone else I consider an equal at best. I don't think it's a coincidence, however, that Kuroneko is generally respectful of the people he discusses with.

I don't recall thinking much of any of the staff... reading some of Valdemar's doomsday stuff is occasionally amusing. I try to avoid debating with Darth Wong more for the above point than fear of him doing anything, I need to make a mental calculation "Okay, do I have hours this week to commit to this?"

...

So there's my take.

As for how I see the board, itself, it seems like it's a good place to vet sci-fi ideas.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Senate: I have to admit, when it was first created, I wasn't happy with the idea, but now I see it as a useful tool for the administration. Darth Wong deserves to have a life, and this hobby shouldn't become a job for him. I'm not too happy with some of their special privileges though. The thread in there detailing possible editing changes is a good example in my mind. While normal users will be able to edit their posts for five or ten minutes after posting (yay!), senators will still able to edit their posts indefinitely. Why?

1) Because this powerless house of common fools cannot stop us!
2) Because senators are supposed to be persons who have set constantly high standards on the forum, and can be trusted not to exploit the editing function as a means of lying in debates or otherwise causing trouble. If they do, then you can bet that’d quickly become grounds for removal from the senate. I myself have mentioned at least in passing in the various recent debates that I think the senate has been failing on setting consistent high standards... but I don't think exploiting editing has anything to do with it. As I recall the ten minute limit still applies to senators in politics forum too, and thats the main place its likely to be an issue.

[Solauren]

I have always found the board to be well policed by the staff, but the users to be a little heavy handed with the 'newbies'.

A positive example would most of entries in Parting Shots. Most of the bans in there are less then 200 posts, and a quick review can usually find that you could see the ban coming.

Unfortunately, this mentality of through policing is taking to the extreme by the users.

Quite frankly, I honestly think some of you are looking for an arguement. Stop and think about it. When was the last time on the board when you just posted back 'You know what, I think you're wrong.' and gave a quite explaination, without flaming the hell out of someone. And I don't mean going 'that joke wasn't very funny', or anything that could be considered just long enough to be more then a +1 post.

Odds are, alot of you can't remember. And it's not surprising. Sometimes, some of the threads can seem like the intellectual equivilent of a male high school gym classes shower room. Hot, aggressive, and to much horomones for your own good.

That's probably why alot of the posts I come up with don't get posted. At least the ones that, after reading, I decide are 'you know what, what was the point of that?'.

We need to cut people some slack. Sir, if someone makes an mistake, and is claiming knowledge, blast them. I've done it, we've all done it.

But maybe we should blast them in a 'nicer' way. Instead of going in like the 501st legion into the Jedi Temple (hey, we're a Star Wars themed board), maybe we could start taking the 'teacher' route, with the 501st on speed dial.

[Coyote]

How often do you PM someone new if you see them fucking up? I've done it several times. I try to pull people aside and give them a rundown on how things are done here, what kind of stunts have been done already, and so on.

That way, if the banhammer does come out, I know I tried. Heh.

[Solauren]

I've PMed numerous people to give them a quick correction (unless they fucked up in testing, then I just reply and go on with my life).

I think several of them are semi-active users now.

[Stormbringer]

Asking questions is also difficult here. Many times when somebody not well established asks a question in n&p, the thread seems to go "No you ignorant piece of shit, [answer to question]" as if going in guns blazing expecting another flamewar/debate, to which the questioner replies "Ok, sorry for asking " Granted this doesn't happen all the time, but I've seen it on many an occasion.

This one really bothers me. I can see losing your patience in a debate, or seeing someone post an opinion which makes you really angry, and overreacting, but this always comes off as sheer bullying, especially since it's usually aimed at newbies.

Red, you've been one of the people making consistent effort to lead by example and improve the quality of the board. I genuinely appreciate that. But I think this is the result of a larger issue. The board has always been rough and tumble but over time it's turned into a free fire zone. There are too many people that don't really switch off any more, they just oscillate between "angry jerk" and all out abuse. It's gotten to a point where it's actively destructive and it's having a chilling effect on discussion here.

One thing I think the board urgently needs is a newer, more active mod-staff. Select and vet them however you will but it seems more needs to be done to keeping a minimum of civilization and order around here. Too many things have gotten out of hand just for lack of any one able to step in and tell people to cool off.

That's just my two cents on the matter.

[CmdrWilkens]

Part of the problem in general is that a lot of the attitudes and "unwritten" rules were formed very early on when the board membership was significantly more limited than it is now. Back when SWvST was a viable and energized forum and OT was an afterthought you could probably get to know just about every regular poster and most of the semi-lurkers. We are now several thousand posters beyond that point and we have the same growing pains any such organization will experience: our culture is still one where each voice will try to rise above all others to be heard. Unfortunately with a board this large it is difficult for one voice to rise above the crowd unless it has a powerful argument and style OR is really loud. We have, unfortunately as a result of our early culture, left an impression that volume is a better way to be heard than strength of argument.

I don't know if there is a paticular solution but telling newbies that they shouldn't express an opinion is just not the way to do it. What I actually hope is tht this thread and maybe others in this subforum can serve as a way for users to test putting a powerful argument out there and getting it acknolwedged. The more we, as a board, reward well thought arguments and ideas (and in turn point out flawed arguments) the more we will be able to include everyone. I know for myself part of the reason I have no worries about getting my two cents into every argument is that, I think, I've proved that what I contirbute is worth reading. If we adopt the ideal that the quality of an argument is better than the quantitiy of argument I think it will serve us well.

[Connor MacLeod]

Part of the problem I think (and this was mentioend before) is that this board pretty much came into being as a place where flaming was acceptable under certain circumstances (being dishonest, or consistently and willfully stupid, or just an outright racist/sexist/bigoted fucktard.) Yes, we allowed flaming when appropriate, but what qualified as "appropriate" seems to have been forgotten. Nowadays (at least in certain places) it seems like flaming may be done for flaming's ake (or amusement, or ego, or just for apeparances sake or whatever) and there's little point to it. And this may result in that perception that we're just a harsh place or htat new useres are bullied. I myself used to flame alot more readily than I used to (since I foudn tis not needed as often unless I get frustrated with someone) but habit can be hard to break (even I get templted to be harsh if my pride gets questioned. I'm human after all.)

Part of a solution may be to create another "testing like" place that isn't as harsh, and have that where introductions are (and where more ruthless moderation si allowed.) Marking testing as a flamepit probably would be sufficient (and anyone walking in there gets what they deserve - I see no reason to start making testing a "nicer" places neccesarily as that's part of its "safety valve" function.)

correcting that behavioru elsewhere will probably require laying down some sort of rules or code of conduct as to how flaming is to be used or employed, ,but that's not something I have off the top of my head either.

[Formless]

I was re-reading the thread, and I just realized: any argument about this thread that says "but this is (was) testing!" Are fucking moot:

I'm very curious about this as well.

EDIT: Off-topic rules apply here, folks.

[Coyote]

The thing is, we got around to patting ourselves on the back for being such a 'rought and tumble' place and pretty soon, any call for civility got derided as trying to turn the place into a "Miss Manners" style board. It didn't help that many of the other boards that we visited/invaded/held in contempt were, in fact, "Miss Manners" type boards where as long as you lied politely, you could get away with it; but calling out the truth with, um, 'salty' language got you banned. Starfleet Jedi, I think, is an example; certainly many of the Fundy boards we used to hit, and I think even SB.com has some of this.

So we got to feeling self-congratulatory about being a House of Flames; like being a flamewarrior meant speaking the truth, and the more you flamed the more righteous your position was. Now, flaming has become the standard, and sometimes content be damned.

[Connor MacLeod]

Thats a good point. In fact some people seem to take pride in or outright revel in that (at least in my mind.)

Me, I've always taken pride in the fact Sd.net was more of an intellectual board where logic and intelligence were favored (and such standards were rigidtly held to.) In retrospect I think maybe a good deal of that is nostalgia when we WERE alot smaller... we've gotten considerably larger and the same may not apply anymore.

[Surlethe]

The thing is, we got around to patting ourselves on the back for being such a 'rought and tumble' place and pretty soon, any call for civility got derided as trying to turn the place into a "Miss Manners" style board.

I think this speaks to Mike's point about logical fallacies going uncalled: that is a textbook black & white fallacy. Are we only now getting around to noticing that calls for civility are not the same as turning the place into a Miss Manners board?

[Dalton]

Flamewar split into HoS. Keep it civil here.

[ray245]

I was thinking, given that the primary focus of this board is no longer about Star wars and science fiction debates, perhaps we can rename the board instead?

Let others knows that right from the start, this is a politically liberal forum and attract people who are political and socially liberal.

It does not benfit the board if a person who is liberal minded in regards to social or political issues got turned off because the name of this forum is called SD.net

In the end, the final decision is for Mike to decide, but I feel that, as the popularity of star wars and SW VS ST debates decline, to attract newer members, it might be better to rename the forum.

Personally I WAS a star wars and science fiction fan in the past. Now, my interest in Star wars and science fiction is the same as any other average joe, who can watches these kind of movies and series once in a blue moon.

[Formless]

Naw, just because SWvST is dead doesn't mean that the board doesn't get enough traffic to be called a sci-fi forum. New threads are still created all the time in PSW, PST, OSF, and fantasy. Why get rid of a GOOD board tradition when there is so much you can change that will actually matter?

[The Romulan Republic]

No, don't change the name. And definitely not for the reasons you seem to be suggesting ray. I do not believe we should advertise this board as endorsing a particular political philosophy. What we should be doing is advertising ourselves as a forum that promotes logic and scientific thought regardless of the particular subject.

In any case, this board gets a unique character from its origins as a sci-fi debating board, and while the focus may be shifting of late, I would hardly call those forums dead. I know other boards on which I post often and find great enjoyment that are no more active that SDN's sci-fi section (probably less).

If you're going to change a major reason for SDN's existence (thus justifying the name change), why not simply advocate telling Mike to shut down the whole forum and start a new one from scratch? To be blunt, I'm here because I want to be on SDN, not because I want to be on some other forum you'd prefer. Making improvements and changes is one thing: that's nessissary. But fundimentally changing the point of the board's existence seems a radical step to take. Its not like sci-fi is dead, you know.

[Bounty]

The thing is, we got around to patting ourselves on the back for being such a 'rought and tumble' place and pretty soon, any call for civility got derided as trying to turn the place into a "Miss Manners" style board.

I think this speaks to Mike's point about logical fallacies going uncalled: that is a textbook black & white fallacy. Are we only now getting around to noticing that calls for civility are not the same as turning the place into a Miss Manners board?

Yes, we are. Pick tried to express that exact sentiment that a year ago, and look at the productive replies she got then.

[Big Phil]

I'd forgotten about that thread; it was interesting to see exactly who replied and what they said that caused Pick to leave the board. No wonder it's a year later and we're back in same spot...

Oh, and ray245 - I'm amazed that guy is still around given the treatment he's been receiving for so many years.