Trek 09 Starfleet weapons, organization, etc. [Spoilers]

[CaptHawkeye]

If Laurentian was anything less than a combat deployment then the fleet would have been at, or on the way to, Vulcan. Training ops and other humanitarian efforts most certainly would have been suspended in order to aid Vulcan in the event of a major ecological disaster.

[CaptHawkeye]

Additionaly, I think Narada's offensive capabilities may be over stated somewhat. She destroyed the Federation Humanitarian force pretty easily but not all of them may have been combat vessels. Sulu reported Enterprise couldn't take a second hit from Narada but he didn't elaborate on "can't take another hit like that". Will another hit destroy the ship or just cripple enough systems to call for a tactical retreat?

The report about Narada destroying a Klingon Fleet is very limited. What kind of ships did Narada destroy? Were they obsolete? Were they slowly stalked and destroyed instead of eliminated in a major battle? Nero must have been doing something inbetween the 25 years of his appearance and his attack on Vulcan.

What I draw this all from is Narada's attack on USS Kelvin. She kicked Kelvin's ass alright, but it took her very long to actually finish Kelvin and in the end Kelvin successfully disabled Narada by kamikazeing into it. (Which begs the question as to if their regular weapons suck?)

Kelvin physically impacted Narada and disabled it. Evidence for this is that Narada stopped shooting at the shuttles even though it had been during the fight. Nero wanted everybody on Kelvin dead to mask his arrival. If his ship was functional he would have hunted down and squashed every one of those shuttles.

Narada was also drifting aimlessly and appeared to be suffering some kind of engine trouble. (Irregular flickering can be seen from its engines.) This begs the question, if Narada could be disabled by a physical impact are Starfleet's weapons truly ineffective against it? Or does Nero just keep getting the drop on isolated opponents who aren't prepared to fight him? The Federation Fleet that Spock intended to rendevous with may very well have been capable of defeating Narada, especially now that Nero's cover was blown.

[Revy]

Well his ship is from the future, and there's something floating around about it having been upgraded by Borg tech. Perhaps he had problems getting that to work 100% of the time, so he was able to deal a crippling blow but then something shorted out (incompatability between Romulan/Borg tech perhaps, with no Seven to make the stuff work right).

Since ramming works sooo much better than actual space guns these days, one wonders why they don't just have remote control junkers loaded down with extra mass and some bigass engines/thrusters, and just use them like cruise missiles to ram at any nasty enemy ships that turn up. I suppose they'd be a bugger to drag along with you, but you could have a few following any fleet about the place maybe, and shove them down the throat of the first ship to give you hassle.

[McC]

Slightly off-topic, but people are saying it way too often.

Begging the question (petitio principii) is a logical fallacy wherein a proposition to be proved is explicitly assumed in the premise. Using it to mean "raises the question" is wrong.

[Nephtys]

Well his ship is from the future, and there's something floating around about it having been upgraded by Borg tech. Perhaps he had problems getting that to work 100% of the time, so he was able to deal a crippling blow but then something shorted out (incompatability between Romulan/Borg tech perhaps, with no Seven to make the stuff work right).

Since ramming works sooo much better than actual space guns these days, one wonders why they don't just have remote control junkers loaded down with extra mass and some bigass engines/thrusters, and just use them like cruise missiles to ram at any nasty enemy ships that turn up. I suppose they'd be a bugger to drag along with you, but you could have a few following any fleet about the place maybe, and shove them down the throat of the first ship to give you hassle.

You could assume that actual mass impacting is a lot more effective vs the shields than shooting it with other things. The Enterprise did get badly scraped by a chunk of ship after all, moving at (apparently) not too high a relative velocity. Spock's little spinnymobile smashed right into Narada as well, without any trouble.

Is it really necessary to put the word 'Borg' in any of this? Can't we just say that a 150+ years more advanced third rate bargain bin MIRV missile kicks ass? Or even if it's some weird mining tool that can be weaponized, thus explaining the damage mostly apparently from physical impacts? One could presume that the Kelvin survived since it only took a few surprise hits at the start (with Narada's crew surprised from being timeshifted?). Against the Klingons, they could have been prepared and destroyed them at range or in conditions where their future weapons would be far more effective. That could match up with how fast the Fed relief ships got blasted.

[Stark]

Look, it's a good thing that massive starbase over Earth doesn't have any guns, or it might have shot Nero's drill off. Very embarrassing.

The drive to incorporate the terrifyingly poor comics when they're clearly a pile of fanservice invention is pretty funny. The movie is so not supporting those comics that it's easily arguable that Spock isn't even from TNG at all, rather a nTrek pre-Kelvin timeline which is now changed.

I'm curious - do any of the people who've seen the movie a bajillion times remember what Nero's command area looked like when Kelvin's captain was brought onboard? I was thinking the whole 'beam into cargo bay oh no mans everywhere' thing might be supportive of actual damage done to Narada by Kelvin, since it crashed directly into the center mass of the ship. Perhaps they're using their phonebox terminals in a cargo bay full of holes with no railings and platforms on different levels (all the better for the uni students to practice their IPSC moves) because the actual superstructure was destroyed.

[Darth Wong]

I only saw it once (last night), but Nero's command area looked a lot like it had been built in an old sewer system. You could actually hear the water sloshing around Nero's feet when he walked. I don't know what the fuck that was supposed to be for.

Well, I actually know what it was supposed to be for: it was supposed to be grimy and subterranean-looking in order to reinforce the Tolkien-esque "He's eeevil and in case you're too stupid to figure it out by now, we'll beat you over the head with it" motif. But in terms of an in-context explanation, I don't know what it's supposed to be for.

[Stark]

Oh yeah when he's interrograting Pike, he actually appears to be knee deep in water. . . for some reason.

A point that interested me was that in an uninspired licenced game on 360, the developers have made ALL Romulan ships look like the Narada (sort of bulb shapes with girders reaching forward) and not at all like TNG Romulan ships. Now this is certianly not canon and game art is a pretty poor source, but it's interesting to think that the producers of the movie said 'this ship is Romulan' and gave them no other pointers at all.

[Singular Intellect]

Regarding Nero's ship and attack method with the drilling platform, there's a couple of ideas/comments that sprang to mind:

-Nero's ship is a mining ship; the explosive 'weaponry' he uses is excusably powerful because it's typically used to break apart large asteroids/small planetoids for mining pruposes. If turned upon warships of a significantly earlier era, it's not surprising they are an 'attack of doom' scenario.

-the mining drill is used in conjuction with these explosives, cracking apart mining targets. It's vulnerable to attack and an inefficient weapon system precisely for that reason; it was never designed as a weapon system, it's simply a jurg rigged as one. And while there is no direct evidence for my suggestion, the concept seems to be the mining beam is capable of drilling to the core of even planets, or at least large asteroids/small planetoids. Therefore it might be possible that the beam, while en route to the core of the target, solidifies the shaft walls with some exotic effect, capable of withstanding the surrounding pressure at least long enough to get couple of mining explosives down it. The existence of Nero's fancy winged explosive he send down Vulcan's core seems to support the notion.

-Nero's ship being durable with potentially powerful shielding is simply a side effect of being a massive industrial vehicle that deals with large scale explosives and mining efforts. Look to modern day examples of large scale mining/construction vehicles; those fuckers are built to last. Stick a fifty caliber machine gun (or other relatively cheap weapon systems) on a massive modern day dump truck and toss it back a century or two, and it would also be unbeatable monster, even to the standing militaries of the time.

-perhaps Red Matter can only perform it's feat in a zero G or near zero G enviroment, hence it must be near the center of a large gravitational source. Nero's ship was destroyed by the Red Matter when it was freely floating around in his ship. Drilling through to a planet's core (or near it) may simply be the only way to make it work near a gravitational source.

Maybe I'm grasping at straws with that last one, but thought I'd throw those ideas out there.

[Stark]

Jeez guys. The red matter 'burst' when the ship rammed Nero's ship; it was shown in loooong camera shots just floating around in single drops (scaling of course impossible). These drops AND Narada were then shown being drawn back into an already-forming singularity; this suggests to me that only a very, very small portion of the red matter actually made the singularity, with the rest of it just being sucked in (and arguably being sent back in time, and not 'fueling' the 'singularity').

[Darth Wong]

Sorry, but there's still no excuse for that stupid drill. Why would the drill have to be dropped on a long chain? Is there some reason why it can't simply be fired from the ship itself? Of course not, except that it provides a useful plot point, an excuse for certain action sequences, etc. Similarly, the only reason the red matter had to be dropped into the core was to create suspense and give the heroes enough time to thwart the villain. A lot of this film makes no sense.

I agree with you about Nero's limited weaponry and the fact that his torpedoes are probably just mining charges. But the design of his ship is a joke; it clearly serves numerous storytelling purposes, but nothing about the ship actually makes sense in context.

[Stark]

Sorry, but there's still no excuse for that stupid drill. Why would the drill have to be dropped on a long chain? Is there some reason why it can't simply be fired from the ship itself? Of course not, except that it provides a useful plot point, an excuse for certain action sequences, etc. Similarly, the only reason the red matter had to be dropped into the core was to create suspense and give the heroes enough time to thwart the villain. A lot of this film makes no sense.

I agree with you about Nero's limited weaponry and the fact that his torpedoes are probably just mining charges. But the design of his ship is a joke; it clearly serves numerous storytelling purposes, but nothing about the ship actually makes sense in context.

Given the strange apperance of the 'chain' and the fact that guys were on the end, how much volume is that drill supposed to take on the Narada? It appears to be thousands of kilometers long. I was actually quite surprised when Spock Jr just shot it, it broke, and then it fell into SF bay with no ill effects. They also don't appear to have a hardwared comm on the drill; they only noticed it was under attack when it was broken, not when the shuttle with Pike in it dropped three guys, not when people were getting incinerated, not when the 'guards' raised the alarm, or when they died.

It's a good thing Starfleet Academy in San Francisco didn't have any 'bus shuttles' left from the start of the movie, because they could have just shot the drill platform with smallarms and saved Earth.

[Singular Intellect]

Sorry, but there's still no excuse for that stupid drill. Why would the drill have to be dropped on a long chain? Is there some reason why it can't simply be fired from the ship itself?

Doesn't the drill itself interfere with Trek systems like transporters, possibly others? Nero's ship would obviously be more heavily shielded for such an expected occurence, but putting a few kilometers between the drilling beam and the ship may make it more easy on the ship's systems, even if it's beefed up to take it.

Edit: And if the drilling chain is hundreds of kilometers long, that makes this point even more reasonable, I'd think.

Of course not, except that it provides a useful plot point, an excuse for certain action sequences, etc. Similarly, the only reason the red matter had to be dropped into the core was to create suspense and give the heroes enough time to thwart the villain. A lot of this film makes no sense.

Previously existing gravity sources being a interfering force for Red Matter to do it's shit is the only explanation I can think of at the moment...

I agree with you about Nero's limited weaponry and the fact that his torpedoes are probably just mining charges. But the design of his ship is a joke; it clearly serves numerous storytelling purposes, but nothing about the ship actually makes sense in context.

That depends, Mike. We saw Nero's ship being used as a jury rigged juggernaut and super weapon platform.

As an engineer yourself, surely you'd agree that until we actually saw Nero's ship performing mining operations, the function it was actually designed for, hand waving design features of it away as 'stupid/useless' is a bit premature.

Certainly stupid and useless for what it was doing, but it was operating quite outide of it's design goals, no?

[McC]

Someone (not sure if it was on this board or someone I was chatting with in-person) made the suggestion that one reason for the no-handrails room might be that it was intended as a zero-g cargo bay/loading dock environment, and only when they had to retreat to the cargo bay because of damage done by Kelvin did it become the zomg-hazardous cliffs-of-doom room. Prior to then, in a zero-g floating cargo/storage environment, catwalks without handrails would make slightly more sense.

Not a lot more, but slightly more.

[Stark]

I'm not seeing how '50% of length is evil-looking girders' is helping it be a mining ship. Considering it has mining beams, charges and a giant door in the front of the superstructure, it may actually be designed to 'mine' in a traditional sense (ie haul rocks into the ship into that giant nonsensical void space).

[Singular Intellect]

I'm not seeing how '50% of length is evil-looking girders' is helping it be a mining ship. Considering it has mining beams, charges and a giant door in the front of the superstructure, it may actually be designed to 'mine' in a traditional sense (ie haul rocks into the ship into that giant nonsensical void space).

Actually, I'm seriously considering whether those' evil looking girders' are capable of moving like arms, and latching onto independent fragments of a mined target for mining efforts.

These 'limbs' also might look 'evil' if one doesn't take into account what they actually do:

Digger arm

Logging arm

Naturally, we never saw this, but we never saw the ship mining anything either.

It's obvious that Nero's ship fails as a combat design, but this isn't surprising since it isn't one. I think speculatng on it's design features and equipment is best served taking into account it's actual function.

[Agent Sorchus]

The only in universe excuse for the water on the floor might be to keep mining dust down. It probably is unfeasible, but dust would be a great problem on a sealed ship that has to process rocks and ore.

[Stark]

Actually, I'm seriously considering whether those' evil looking girders' are capable of moving like arms, and latching onto independent fragments of a mined target for mining efforts.

These 'limbs' also might look 'evil' if one doesn't take into account what they actually do:

Digger arm

Logging arm

Naturally, we never saw this, but we never saw the ship mining anything either.

It's obvious that Nero's ship fails as a combat design, but this isn't surprising since it isn't one. I think speculatng on it's design features and equipment is best served taking into account it's actual function.

Right, so when I say 'it may mine xyz' way, that's bad, but when you link to the John Deere website and say 'omg mining arms' that's okay? At least we actually saw the main doors open in the movie.

[Singular Intellect]

The only in universe excuse for the water on the floor might be to keep mining dust down. It probably is unfeasible, but dust would be a great problem on a sealed ship that has to process rocks and ore.

Actually, that question brings up something else; this mining ship was functioning in the past without any support infrastructure whatsoever except for what it could provide itself. Wasn't it in the past for a couple of decades?

Hell, the water on the floor could simply be a ruptured water management system they lack the resources to fix properly. It's not critical since they aren't performing mining operations anymore, and it seems likely Nero wouldn't be offering up his ship to the nearest power for inspection and repairs anyhow.

Not to mention he was using the ship as a battle wagon, but why the hell would they have crew onboard who need to do anything other than minor repairs and maintenance? I daresay there's a difference between your typical mining vessel maintenance and battle damage.

[McC]

Actually, that question brings up something else; this mining ship was functioning in the past without any support infrastructure whatsoever except for what it could provide itself. Wasn't it in the past for a couple of decades?

Are we sure about this? How do we know they didn't hobble off to Romulus and give them future-tech?

[Singular Intellect]

Right, so when I say 'it may mine xyz' way, that's bad, but when you link to the John Deere website and say 'omg mining arms' that's okay? At least we actually saw the main doors open in the movie.

Care the clarify your point, Stark? I'm not catching it.

[Singular Intellect]

Actually, that question brings up something else; this mining ship was functioning in the past without any support infrastructure whatsoever except for what it could provide itself. Wasn't it in the past for a couple of decades?

Are we sure about this? How do we know they didn't hobble off to Romulus and give them future-tech?

Nero did specifically say they didn't affiliate themselves with the existing Romulan Empire (Nero: "We stand apart") when Christopher Pike told Nero the Romulans were declaring war on the Federation by his actions.

[Stark]

Care the clarify your point, Stark? I'm not catching it.

Hey don't let me stop you bust out heaps of unsupported speculation while you ignore facts from the movie because you don't like them.

Also John Deere website = good source for ST.

[Singular Intellect]

Care the clarify your point, Stark? I'm not catching it.

Hey don't let me stop you bust out heaps of unsupported speculation while you ignore facts from the movie because you don't like them.

What, that the 'evil looking girders' as you call them might have a valid purpose for being there in the context of a mining ship?

Why does this speculation bother you? Because it's unsupported? Feel free to point out where I've dared to suggest otherwise.

On the other hand, if you're just here to provide nothing but "har har stupid design and any speculation is unsupported bullshit", let me know and I will interpret your posts accordingly.

[McC]

Nero did specifically say they didn't affiliate themselves with the existing Romulan Empire (Nero: "We stand apart") when Christopher Pike told Nero the Romulans were declaring war on the Federation by his actions.

Yeah, but I took that more as a "we are not acting on behalf of the Romulan government," rather than "we've never contacted the Romulan government ever and they don't know of our existence."

Or, y'know, he could've just been lying.