The Principality of Zeon in Enterprise era Trekverse

[Darwin]

If life on a space colony is better than life on Earth, as you claim, why would the oppressors choose to live on Earth instead of the space colonies?

Inertia. They were already there and didn't want to leave. Nobody really likes having to leave home.

Their hearts were dragged down by the force of gravity. Only in space can humanity truly be free.

[avatarxprime]

Same thing w/ United Earth in the face of the Principality's massive military complex. Unless the majority of United Earth's military & government leaders are lobotomized, Starfleet will expand its military capabilities, just in case negotiations fail. Evidence? Look at history. Did the British government decide, "We better not expand our own military to avoid offending the Nazis," when Hitler decided to seize Czechoslovakia? No, it decided, "We cannot afford to go to war at this time, so let's appease the Nazis & buy time as we expand our own military. No, we don't want to start a war, but we don't want to be caught w/ our pants down if the Nazis start one."

History doesn't mean squat. We've routinely seem Starfleet pull stunts that no sane military would ever do. We also know that when faced with some new alien the first thing UE is gonna do is try to establish friendly first contact. The following sob story Zeon will deliver combined with genetic testing showing that they are just as human as ST humans will leave them trying to figure out what is going on more than thinking "we should go on a war footing." If anything they would probably want to immediately incorporate Zeon and their resources into their proto-Federation. The entire point of the UE is that all humans should be working together.

Zeon should then be able to hold off doing anything overtly antagonistic for 2 years. At that point Earth will be embroiled in the Romulan War. Zeon offering up their troops for assistance in that conflict with the condition they be fitted with warp drive and FTL comms would probably go over just fine with Starfleet. That gives Zeon access to all the tech they would require to bootstrap themselves to comparable levels to the Starfleet.

[Commander 598]

If life on a space colony is better than life on Earth, as you claim, why would the oppressors choose to live on Earth instead of the space colonies?

Inertia. They were already there and didn't want to leave. Nobody really likes having to leave home.

Their hearts were dragged down by the force of gravity. Only in space can humanity truly be free.

(Disregard the flag)

[Sidewinder]

Same thing w/ United Earth in the face of the Principality's massive military complex. Unless the majority of United Earth's military & government leaders are lobotomized, Starfleet will expand its military capabilities, just in case negotiations fail. Evidence? Look at history. Did the British government decide, "We better not expand our own military to avoid offending the Nazis," when Hitler decided to seize Czechoslovakia? No, it decided, "We cannot afford to go to war at this time, so let's appease the Nazis & buy time as we expand our own military. No, we don't want to start a war, but we don't want to be caught w/ our pants down if the Nazis start one."

History doesn't mean squat. We've routinely seem Starfleet pull stunts that no sane military would ever do. We also know that when faced with some new alien the first thing UE is gonna do is try to establish friendly first contact. The following sob story Zeon will deliver combined with genetic testing showing that they are just as human as ST humans will leave them trying to figure out what is going on more than thinking "we should go on a war footing." If anything they would probably want to immediately incorporate Zeon and their resources into their proto-Federation. The entire point of the UE is that all humans should be working together.

Zeon should then be able to hold off doing anything overtly antagonistic for 2 years. At that point Earth will be embroiled in the Romulan War. Zeon offering up their troops for assistance in that conflict with the condition they be fitted with warp drive and FTL comms would probably go over just fine with Starfleet. That gives Zeon access to all the tech they would require to bootstrap themselves to comparable levels to the Starfleet.

Go back & read what my post was replying to.

And once the UE spots Zeon's massive military capabilities, they'll be more reluctant to negotiate with them.

So they'd rather be standoffish and possibly offend people right in their own backyard who have a massive military complex than negotiate with them and NOT start a war?

If a violent criminal begins committing crimes in your neighborhood- rape, robbery, carjacking, etc.- will you not think, "I need a weapon to defend myself," & buy a gun or two?

Same thing w/ United Earth in the face of the Principality's massive military complex. Unless the majority of United Earth's military & government leaders are lobotomized, Starfleet will expand its military capabilities, just in case negotiations fail. Evidence? Look at history. Did the British government decide, "We better not expand our own military to avoid offending the Nazis," when Hitler decided to seize Czechoslovakia? No, it decided, "We cannot afford to go to war at this time, so let's appease the Nazis & buy time as we expand our own military. No, we don't want to start a war, but we don't want to be caught w/ our pants down if the Nazis start one."

All Zeon has to do is realize that the UE has a massive advantage in FTL travel/communications/sensors, lay low with the rhetoric while subtly planting little seeds of propaganda amongst Earth's population, and bide their time while trading for technology.

Zeon will EPIC FAIL in planting these seeds, because Zeon propaganda has very little appeal to humans in the ST universe.

And Zeon can pass off its military as being for self-defense because they were fighting an oppressive regime in their native universe. And, naturally, they still have a right to defend themselves from aggressors, especially now that they're in a whole new universe they're unfamiliar with. I'm sure the people of the UE, having just been through the Xindi, can appreciate that.

What makes you think United Earth will not decide, "Yeah, having a self-defense force is a good idea," & expand its own military, instead of saying, "We need protection, but we don't want to expend resources to expand our own military. Can you Zeon guys provide protection?" making United Earth a Zeon protectorate?

Thus, Zeon can spend their time gathering intelligence and allies, upgrading their ships with warp drive and shields, and then conquer the Earth when the time is right.

What makes you think Zeon can catch up w/ Starfleet, which has operated warp-capable ships for decades, will likely continue to research warp technology, & continue to build warp-capable ships?

It's a far cry from "Zeon bides its time, catches up w/ Starfleet, & then conquers United Earth," & "Zeon bides its time, allies itself w/ Starfleet during the Romulan War, & then unites w/ United Earth to form a new state."

The biggest turn off for colonies is that they are extremely easy to control- hold the life support systems and the populance has to dance to your tune.

Not true. The life support is the local ecosystem, just like on Earth, which isn't so easy to take out.

Just look at Gundam - if it were this easy, why didn't the combatants do that?

The combatants have done this, you deluded fool!

"The Three Seconds of Declaration"
At 0720 on January 3, U.C.0079, the Principality of Zeon unilaterally declares war against the Earth Federation. Merely three seconds later (known to UC historians as Zeon's Three Seconds of Declaration), the Zeon forces launch all-out surprise attacks against the Federation's garrisons at the space colonies located in the Zahn province of Side 1, the Hatte province in Side 2 and the Mua province in Side 4. NBC Weapons are used indiscriminately, while Zeon nerve gas attacks (used to suppress the garrisons from mobilizing) slaughters the spacenoids Zeon claims to protect. In just one day of fighting, over 2.8 billion innocent civilians are killed.

Operation British
<snip>
During the opening battles of the One Week War, Zeon troops launch a gas attack on Island Iffish, a colony in the Hatte province of Side 2, employing a highly-toxic nerve gas known as GG, which is able to enter even into the gas shelters via the colony's ventilation system. The cleansing of the colony's entire population is accomplished within 20 minutes.

The Antarctic Treaty
With the capture of General Revil, the aborted colony drop and heavy losses on both sides, the Earth Federation and Principality of Zeon agree to a truce. Using the recent victory at Loum, Gihren Zabi intends to intimidate the Federation into submission by threatening dropping Luna II on Jaburo. While negotiating the conditions of the Federation's surrender, Revil is rescued by federal agents within the Principality and makes a speech to the Federation Assembly, revealing "Zeon is exhausted!". The Federation receives a boost in morale and rejects the conditions of surrender, but agrees to treaty prohibiting the use of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, colony drops, and attacks on the Jupiter Energy fleets, whilst recognizing the neutrality of the space colonies at Side 6, and determining the rules of war. This Antarctic Treaty was signed on January 31st UC 0079.

The Earth Drop Operations
<snip>
The ban on nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons, and colony drops dashes Zeon's hope for a quick conclusion to the war, forcing them to invade Earth territories to secure mining resources, which are scarce in space.

The citizens of the Federation start to resent the Titans' methodology, and on July 31, UC 0085, a massive protest is held in Side 1's 30 Bunch (the 30th colony in the area) against the Titans' actions, but the demonstration soon turns into chaos, rioting breaking throughout the colony. After repeated failed attempts by Federation colonial forces to suppress the riots, the Titans are dispatched to put it to an end. Shutting off the colony's air supply, they proceed to pump the whole colony cylinder (about 20 miles (32 km) long and 4 miles (6.4 km) wide) with a lethal nerve gas called G3, killing the entire populace.

Emphasis mine.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Does anyone actually have a video clip of one of the Colony drops? Ive been trying to find one on youtube and havn't, mostly because I want to look at the speed and angle that its coming down.

[Commander 598]

Don't think there is one but according to Gundam Century the Operation British colony hit reentry at about 11km/s, possibly over or in the vicinity of Arabia which is where it collapsed.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Does anyone actually have a video clip of one of the Colony drops? Ive been trying to find one on youtube and havn't, mostly because I want to look at the speed and angle that its coming down.

The only one I know of is in a prologue from the first dozen or so episodes of the original series, but I don't think it's very accurate for calculations because it's animated impacting the surface so slowly (although that could be because of its size).

[Commander 598]

Disregard that above,

11km/s plus:

The colony entered the atmosphere at a shallow angle, at an altitude of more than a hundred kilometers over Africa. It continued its flight while undergoing about three gees of deceleration due to the atmosphere, and was scheduled to fall on Jaburo about 40 minutes later. However, its flight went smoothly only for the first few minutes after atmospheric entry.

As it passed over Arabia, the colony collapsed. The front section veered south and fell onto Sydney, Australia. All three of the rear section's land panels veered north, with two falling onto North America and one in the Pacific Ocean. The remaining mirror fragments fell across the surface of the Earth.

[Samuel]

which is able to enter even into the gas shelters via the colony's ventilation system.

Isn't a useful as

Shutting off the colony's air supply

Zeon wasn't really all that evil, it was mostly just Gihren planning to be Hitler when he assumed the throne and planning to knock off family members...

... They killed 2 billion civilians. They were collateral damage, but their goals required that billions had to die.

Probably. Though, being on Earth was no protection either. It is sheer luck that that beam didn't slash through major cities.

It did. Tucker lost a sister due to the beam.

The natural resources of Zeon are less than 1/30 of the Earth Federation's. Despite that major difference, how is it that they were able to fight the Federation for so long? It was because their goal in the war was a rightous one.

The Principality of Zeon had a long and arduous struggle to achieve freedom for all citizens of their great nation. Their fight was sacred, their cause divine!

They tried words, but words didn't work. They needed action to ensure their freedom would never be trampled by the Federation again.


Don't just look at the one-sided propaganda of the Federation victors. Look at the real facts and see the truth.

Hail Zeon!

So, not Space Nazis, but Space Empire of Japan?

[Ford Prefect]

For the higher number, let's do the math on 11 km/s. 1/2 m * v^2 = ~1e20 joules. About 24 gigatons. (Give or take a factor of ten.)

I'm pretty sure this is closer to the number than Captain Synapse gives to Nina Purpleton when they're flying over 'Sydney' in Stardust Memory.

"Looks like we're almost at Australia."
"Actually, we've been flying over Australia for some time."

[Swindle1984]

I don't give a shit how charismatic Zeon's "mouthpiece" is. When a massive group of space colonies suddenly appears on the other side of the moon and starts spewing psudo-religious bullshit that flys in the face of evolutionary theory, people on the UE aren't going to buy it.

Even when Zeon has Newtypes to prove it?

Zeon propaganda on "advancing human evolution" hinges on the fact that you're more exposed to radiation on a space colony than you are on a planetary surface, where you have the atmosphere- 120 kilometers thick in Earth's case- to shield you. Exposure to radiation may cause genetic mutations, such as cancer- making the "expose yourself to radiation & evolve into a Neotype" thing a game of Russian roulette.

Oh hey, wikipedia links to the definition of words used in common english. Yes, you're very clever. For a fifth grader.

Does Zeon have a higher rate of cancer than earth-bound humans? If cancer is a concern, are Zeon's and the UE's medical technologies unable to deal with it? Maybe Phlox can put a booger up your ass and cure your prostate cancer.

And once the UE spots Zeon's massive military capabilities, they'll be more reluctant to negotiate with them.

So they'd rather be standoffish and possibly offend people right in their own backyard who have a massive military complex than negotiate with them and NOT start a war?

If a violent criminal begins committing crimes in your neighborhood- rape, robbery, carjacking, etc.- will you not think, "I need a weapon to defend myself," & buy a gun or two?

Same thing w/ United Earth in the face of the Principality's massive military complex. Unless the majority of United Earth's military & government leaders are lobotomized, Starfleet will expand its military capabilities, just in case negotiations fail. Evidence? Look at history. Did the British government decide, "We better not expand our own military to avoid offending the Nazis," when Hitler decided to seize Czechoslovakia? No, it decided, "We cannot afford to go to war at this time, so let's appease the Nazis & buy time as we expand our own military. No, we don't want to start a war, but we don't want to be caught w/ our pants down if the Nazis start one."

All Zeon has to do is realize that the UE has a massive advantage in FTL travel/communications/sensors, lay low with the rhetoric while subtly planting little seeds of propaganda amongst Earth's population, and bide their time while trading for technology.

Zeon will EPIC FAIL in planting these seeds, because Zeon propaganda has very little appeal to humans in the ST universe.

And Zeon can pass off its military as being for self-defense because they were fighting an oppressive regime in their native universe. And, naturally, they still have a right to defend themselves from aggressors, especially now that they're in a whole new universe they're unfamiliar with. I'm sure the people of the UE, having just been through the Xindi, can appreciate that.

What makes you think United Earth will not decide, "Yeah, having a self-defense force is a good idea," & expand its own military, instead of saying, "We need protection, but we don't want to expend resources to expand our own military. Can you Zeon guys provide protection?" making United Earth a Zeon protectorate?

I didn't want to quote this entire mess of inanity, but it bears quoting just so you can look at the nonsense you wrote and my responses.

WWII Britain and Germany is completely fucking different from Zeon and the UE. If you're too stupid to understand that, then go sit in the corner and play with your colored blocks.

Britain had fought a war with Germany just previously, Germans held a grudge against Britain and France for screwing them over after the war, and had begun a massive military build-up whilst their leader spouted rhetoric about Germans being the master race destined to conquer the earth. Oh, and that little thing with invading Czechoslavakia and Poland. NO SHIT Britain wanted to get its military built up in case the Germans started a war.

In this case, you have the UE suddenly having an entire civilization from another universe magically appearing in their backyard, complete with a massive military. All they know about Zeon's history is what the Zeons tell them, and considering the sob story they can spin up about having been fighting a war of self-defense against an evil, despotic regime that sought to enslave them (even better if they casually mention that the EF had allied with aliens to do it. Now they've got everyone with a poor opinion of aliens after the Xindi attack sympathetic to them.), so OF COURSE they have a big military. These are not a people who have a history of attacking the UE, nor have they spontaneously started attacking Earth's neighbors. And Zeon's schtick is that humanity as a whole should colonize space (which the UE is fine with, though not quite the same way the Principality of Zeon means) and evolve into Newtypes (which may smack of eugenics to the people of the UE, but if Zeon plays it right... Considering how Phlox and Archer murdered an entire sentient species so another species could "evolve", telling people that they're on the next step of evolution probably wouldn't put them off too badly.), not that Zeons are destined to conquer and enslave all non-Zeon's.

And yes, while the UE probably won't be comfortable with a huge military suddenly popping up on their doorstep (who would be?), they would still realize that they hold a massive strategic advantage over Zeon for the moment. All Zeon has to do is play up the "best interests of humanity as a whole" angle and seek to open formal relations (ambassadors, trade agreements, etc.) and 'prove' that they're not hostile and the UE will start to relax. "Oh, this new universe we've mysteriously appeared in is full of hostile aliens who launched genocidal attacks against your planet? Gee, we'd better keep our military then, just in case we get attacked too. How about a mutual defense treaty?"

No, Earth isn't going to subcontract its military to Zeon. Suggesting that anyone would think such is fucking retarded.

All Zeon has to do is convince the UE that it isn't hostile long enough to buy what it needs to close the technological gap. You also have to factor in Starfleet (granted, most of it being post-Enterprise) doing stupid shit like not building up its defenses or refusing to fight back for fear of offending someone who is actively hostile toward them. Especially since they seem to consider all humans as being united, much like all Vulcans are united, all Romulans are united, etc. rather than having multiple nations made up of the same species (i.e., no Klingon Empire here, Klingon Republic there, and a group of Klingon Libertarians over there. Just one Klingon political entity.). They likely would try to convince Zeon to join the UE.

Thus, Zeon can spend their time gathering intelligence and allies, upgrading their ships with warp drive and shields, and then conquer the Earth when the time is right.

What makes you think Zeon can catch up w/ Starfleet, which has operated warp-capable ships for decades, will likely continue to research warp technology, & continue to build warp-capable ships? What makes you think United Earth will not continue to send forth exploration, colonization, & diplomatic missions- i.e., scouting, expanding, & seeking allies- while Zeon is waiting for the right time?

[/quote]

Considering other species have purchased warp drive and other technology and become interstellar traders, it's not impossible for Zeon to do the same. Especially since Starfleet is still fledgling compared to the rest of the Alpha Quadrant and doesn't have much in the way of a military fleet.

Voila. Zeon buys warp drives for its fleet of warships and starts installing shields while foreigners (other humans or alien traders like the Ferengi- not the Ferengi themselves, before you try to nitpick that, dumbass) help train them in its use. They don't need to know the physics behind all that shit (do you need to know how an internal combustion engine works or how to program a computer in order to drive your car?), they just need to know how to install it, maintain it, and use it. Their scientists and engineers can figure out the physics later; meanwhile, everybody can read the fucking manual.

[Ford Prefect]

Does Zeon have a higher rate of cancer than earth-bound humans?

Its irrelevant. Newtypes aren't caused by exposure to radiation; its an adaptation to the environment of space*. More specifically, it can be seen as being an adaptation to environments with no actual gravity; heightened spatial awareness to compensate for three dimensional microgravity and the peculiar effects of centrifugal force in colonies. Precisely why this can result in Newtypes with precognitive, telepathic and even telekinetic abilities is never explained, nor is it particularly important.

*Or at least it tends to be. While I'm pretty sure most notable Newtypes are spacenoids, perhaps the most notable of all is Amuro Ray, and he's an earthnoid.

[Darwin]

*Or at least it tends to be. While I'm pretty sure most notable Newtypes are spacenoids, perhaps the most notable of all is Amuro Ray, and he's an earthnoid.

True, Amuro was born on earth, and I don't recall how much time he spent on side 7, but it probably wasn't more than a few years. Hm. I don't recall any other confirmed earthnoid newtypes though. A slew of more powerful spaecenoid newtypes sprung up after him (Lalah, Kamille, Scirocco, Haman, Judau) it could have just been a matter of timing.

[avatarxprime]

It's a far cry from "Zeon bides its time, catches up w/ Starfleet, & then conquers United Earth," & "Zeon bides its time, allies itself w/ Starfleet during the Romulan War, & then unites w/ United Earth to form a new state."

The key point is "Zeon bides its time." Neither Swindle1984 nor myself said anything about Zeon taking aggressive or antagonistic actions until such time that they have rough parity to Starfleet in this scenario. Your responses make it seem like Zeon will start annexing United Earth territory and using gunship diplomacy the second they pop in. Sure, if they tried something that stupid, Zeon deserves Starfleet coming in and wrecking them, but we aren't saying anything of the sort.

If anything the Vulcans on Earth are the ones likely to start being dicks to Zeon while UE tries getting its human-human lovefest on. This is a point that hasn't really been brought up yet. What will the Vulcans do? They have a consulant on Earth and will certainly have something to say about these new humans. I imagine when Zeon unveils Newtypes the Vulcans will be very intrigued. The Vulcans would also probably be the ones voicing caution on moving relations forward with Zeon. Now considering Archer pretty much does the exact opposite of whatever the Vulcans say this could actually go in their favor as far as gaining tech directly from Starfleet goes.

[Commander 598]

*Or at least it tends to be. While I'm pretty sure most notable Newtypes are spacenoids, perhaps the most notable of all is Amuro Ray, and he's an earthnoid.

True, Amuro was born on earth, and I don't recall how much time he spent on side 7, but it probably wasn't more than a few years. Hm. I don't recall any other confirmed earthnoid newtypes though. A slew of more powerful spaecenoid newtypes sprung up after him (Lalah, Kamille, Scirocco, Haman, Judau) it could have just been a matter of timing.

I think it should be noted that Amuro's father likely spent most or at least a lot of his time in space and Amuro himself was making regular trips.

[Darksider]

I have a question for everyone who's positing the "Zeon biding their time" argument.

How likely are they to "bide their time" with power-hungry nuts like the Zabis in charge? Girhen took a comparison to Adolf Hitler as a compliment for christ's sake. Are the Zeeks going to wait long enough to figure out how outclassed they are, or are they going to launch an immediate attack and get curb stomped?

Another question: What the hell makes you think that Zeon can even catch up to the United Earth in terms of technology, let alone surpass them to the extent required for a military victory?

The Vulcans sure as hell aren't going to give them advanced warp technology, and I doubt the UE would be willing to trade advanced military technology to the group of colonies whose leader is spouting dogmatic crap about "evolving humanity."

Every advance Zeon has to make is old news for the UE. While they build up their resources and try to even out the Technological edge, the United Earth will be establishing more colonies, building up the ones they already have, and constructing more warp capable warships. Remember that in two years the United Earth will have enough military resources and political clout to wage a war against a major interstellar empire. Zeon is just too far outclassed to ever catch up to a reasonable extent. When they field their first Warp-capable Musai variant, they'll be up against Miranda and Constitution-class starships.

[Commander 598]

How likely are they to "bide their time" with power-hungry nuts like the Zabis in charge? Girhen took a comparison to Adolf Hitler as a compliment for christ's sake. Are the Zeeks going to wait long enough to figure out how outclassed they are, or are they going to launch an immediate attack and get curb stomped?

I would think that anyone with half a brain would know that charging off against a completely unknown enemy is suicidally stupid.

[Ford Prefect]

I think it should be noted that Amuro's father likely spent most or at least a lot of his time in space and Amuro himself was making regular trips.

And we don't know what Tem's parents did, but they themselves could have been engineers in space.

How likely are they to "bide their time" with power-hungry nuts like the Zabis in charge?

If you think that Gihren Zabi, mastermind of the 'Three Second's of Declaration', in which the Principality held off going to war until everything was in place to perform an utterly cataclysmic three pronged surprise attack which killed almost three billion people, is going to immediately declare war on this new 'enemy', you need to get your head examined. Far out, Gihren's closest and most loyal subordinate is Aiguille Delaz, the guy who spent three years putting together Operation: Stardust. This is what Zekes (particularly the Zabis) do: they scheme, plot and backstab. Garma Zabi's 'flaw' was that he was naïve and not suited to calculated manipulations of the people around him, entirely unlike his siblings.

Good grief, I don't even think the Zekes can win in this scenario, but you are actually postulating that they will do everything stupid possible. More to the point, you are actually postulating that they are more incompetant then the people who put Jonathan Archer in charge of their flagship, and then left him in charge despite a ceaseless carnivale of bad decisions on Archer's part, including one which almost triggered an interstellar war.

[Sidewinder]

In this case, you have the UE suddenly having an entire civilization from another universe magically appearing in their backyard, complete with a massive military. All they know about Zeon's history is what the Zeons tell them, and considering the sob story they can spin up about having been fighting a war of self-defense against an evil, despotic regime that sought to enslave them (even better if they casually mention that the EF had allied with aliens to do it. Now they've got everyone with a poor opinion of aliens after the Xindi attack sympathetic to them.), so OF COURSE they have a big military.

Suppose my Army buddies & I drive a dozen M1117 Armored Security Vehicles onto your front lawn, and we step out in all our SAPI plated, gunslinging glory. You shout out, "What the hell are you doing on my front lawn, with all those nasty guns?!" (You don't come out- what sensible person will in the face of all that firepower?) We reply, "We just got back from 'If I tell you, I'll have to kill you' Land. We're bringing all those nasty guns with us because we were fighting terrorists over there." Are you going to simply accept our explanation, & let us park our MRAPs on your front lawn, having a cigarette break while shotguns, rifles, & machine guns hang from our shoulders?

They don't need to know the physics behind all that shit (do you need to know how an internal combustion engine works or how to program a computer in order to drive your car?), they just need to know how to install it, maintain it, and use it.

Zeon needs to do considerably more than just installing & using FTL tech, & performing field-level maintenance; they must also mass-produce it, continue research & development of improvements to FTL tech, & perform depot-level maintenance, all while trying to catch up w/ someone who's been doing this for decades. Unless they magically convince someone else to wage war as their proxies- Romulans, Klingons, Ferengi, Cardassians, etc.- they must know the physics behind all that shit. Or do you think you can design & then mass-produce better cars than Ford Motor Company, when you do not know how an internal combustion engine works?

After repeated failed attempts by Federation colonial forces to suppress the riots, the Titans are dispatched to put it to an end. Shutting off the colony's air supply,

This is impossible - there is over 3 billion tons of air inside a colony. That's not something you can just "shut off". The only reasonable explanation for this sentence is AEUG exaggeration.

You're as delusional as the Trekkies who claim the USS Enterprise will beat the Death Star because "Lasers won't even penetrate [the Enterprise's] navigational deflectors!" while ignoring the fact a Borg cutting beam- a laser- easily cut through the Enterprise's hull in Q Who.

For reference, the International Space Station's life support system "provides or controls elements such as atmospheric pressure, fire detection and suppression, oxygen levels, and water supply. The highest priority for the ECLSS is the ISS atmosphere, but the system also collects, processes, and stores waste and water produced and used by the crew. This process includes recycling fluid from the sink, shower, toilet, and condensation from the air. The Elektron system aboard Zvezda and a similar oxygen generation system in Destiny generate oxygen aboard the station. <snip> Carbon dioxide is removed from the air by the Vozdukh system in Zvezda. Other by-products of human metabolism, such as methane from the intestines and ammonia from sweat, are removed by activated charcoal filters." Fuck up any one of those systems, & the crew will eventually die. Take control of the life support system so it'll introduce nerve gas into the space station's atmosphere, & you can dramatically shorten the time you must wait for the crew to die.

Finally, guess what, chemical weapons kill lots of people when used on Earth too; this isn't something special about the habitats. There's a reason nerve gasses are called weapons of mass destruction.

It's considerably more difficult & time-consuming to poison one million people on a planet- where wind, rain, & other weather conditions may dilute or dissipate the chemicals before they can kill that many people- than it is to kill one million people in a space station or colony, i.e., an enclosed space.

[Ford Prefect]

Sidewinder, did you seriously just directly compare the life support system on International Space Station to a thirty two kilometre long sapce habitat? The fact that you called Destructionator 'delusional' is hilarious.

[RedImperator]

Wait a minute--let me see if I understand what the pro-Zeon side is saying here. The scenario is, several heavily populated space colonies and a large, but technologically inferior space fleet appear at the Earth-Moon L2 point. It's already been established that Zeon is at an insurmountable strategic disadvantage. So now we're hanging our hats on the idea that United Earth will allow Zeon to 1) remain fully independent, 2) keep its existing space fleet, and 3) build a warp-capable battlefleet which will allow it to conquer Earth? Am I the only one who thinks this is fucking ridiculous?

Let's try this scenario for comparison: a series of small, crowded islands appear in lower New York Bay, off Staten Island. They possess a large fleet of Jutland-era destroyers. The people of the islands tell the United States government that in their home universe, they were fighting a war against evil oppressors, and, oh hey, since you guys have a problem with terrorism, we should be allowed to keep our battlefleet for self-defense. They bide their time for several years, until they can purchase guided missile cruisers from China, again, with no interference from the United States government. Then they invade New York City.

[Junghalli]

Its irrelevant. Newtypes aren't caused by exposure to radiation; its an adaptation to the environment of space*. More specifically, it can be seen as being an adaptation to environments with no actual gravity; heightened spatial awareness to compensate for three dimensional microgravity and the peculiar effects of centrifugal force in colonies. Precisely why this can result in Newtypes with precognitive, telepathic and even telekinetic abilities is never explained, nor is it particularly important.

*Or at least it tends to be. While I'm pretty sure most notable Newtypes are spacenoids, perhaps the most notable of all is Amuro Ray, and he's an earthnoid.

Of course, in any halfway realistic universe Sidewinder would still have a point. For every superior space-adapted human you'd probably get a thousand cripples. That's how evolution works: it's nature spamming random mutations and the ones that are by random chance an improvement on the original model thrive, while the process produces thousands and thousands of failures that are inferior to the original, often cataclysmically so. So an ideology of "live in space so you can give birth to superior space babies" has a logical unspoken collary of "and we'll only have to go through lots of cripples with horrible birth defects to get there". And the ideology is even more incoherent if the mutation rate isn't upped in space somehow, as you could get the same thing on Earth if it's just random mutation, and then increase their numbers by selective breeding.

Of course, while I know zilch about the universe in question I'm willing to bet from the sound of it that it's Trek style magic "evolution".

Disclaimer: from the available info it could also be that the Newtypes are just a result of a normal human growing up in no-G conditions, i.e. it's environmental rather than genetic. Which would make a lot more sense.

[Sidewinder]

It's considerably more difficult & time-consuming to poison one million people on a planet- where wind, rain, & other weather conditions may dilute or dissipate the chemicals before they can kill that many people-

There is wind, rain, and other weather conditions in the habitats, too. Did you actually study the source material at all?

I'm not talking about size at all (though, even if I was, you'd have no case - the space population in MSG is several times that of the Earth population, and everyone we see live in spacious houses). The living conditions inside a habitat are simply better than on a planet. You don't have to deal with weather or pests.

Emphasis mine. Did you forget this claim you made regarding weather in space colonies?

And yes, I know there is rain in the UC space colonies. However, this rain is artificially created, & falls according to a schedule, as Amuro noted before his face-to-face meeting w/ Char on a neutral colony. Therefore, the Titans can choose to use nerve agents when it is not scheduled to rain- something impossible to do on Earth, or any other planet w/ its own atmosphere.

Sidewinder, did you seriously just directly compare the life support system on International Space Station to a thirty two kilometre long sapce habitat? The fact that you called Destructionator 'delusional' is hilarious.

Why doesn't Earth's atmosphere simply dissipate into space, leaving us to asphyxiate? Why doesn't centrifugal force- the Earth's rotation- launch the atmosphere away from the planet? Because Earth's gravity is strong enough to force air molecules to concentrate upon its surface. Do you think a space station- even one that's 32 kilometers long- has enough mass to generate gravity comparable to this planet?

The O'Neill cylinder is an enclosed space, because it lacks the mass to generate gravity the same way a planet can, & cannot maintain an atmosphere the same way a planet can. Therefore, it must have a life support system to maintain this artificial atmosphere.

Once again, there is no life support 'system'; local life maintains everything, just like here on Earth.
<snip>
The habitat has one trillion cubic meters of "enclosed space". Zeta Gundam episode 42, or episode 6, or fuck, any episode from any Gundam series at all again. Many episodes show the inside of those colonies. The shots are virtually indistinguishable from Earth.

Do oceans comprise 70% of a space colony's interior surface? No? Then the colony's interior are not indistinguishable from Earth.

Do you know algae & other marine plants produce 70 to 80% of the oxygen in Earth's atmosphere? Do the colonies have bodies of water that can sustain the amount of algae necessary to produce 70 to 80% of the oxygen in the colony? No? Then it's reasonable to assume a colony must have a life support system to maintain an atmosphere comparable to Earth's, unless bodies of water comprise 70% of its interior surface.

[Sidewinder]

Disclaimer: from the available info it could also be that the Newtypes are just a result of a normal human growing up in no-G conditions, i.e. it's environmental rather than genetic. Which would make a lot more sense.

Growing up in zero or microgravity environments will cripple a human being, as detailed here. The colonization program depicted in Mobile Suit Gundam must have crippled hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people before the Newtype came into being.

Hell, such a cripple was likely depicted in the series itself!

Also curious is the marked physical contrast between Degwin and his offspring: Garma's delicate features are inherited from his mother, but what about Dozle's and Gihren's hulking physiques? They're over six feet tall, with broad chests and thick necks, while their dad is a tiny old man who needs a cane to get around. Even for a 62-year-old, Degwin seems poorly preserved.

My theory? I suspect Degwin's been spending too much time on the moon. In the early days of the space colonization program, mining facilities were established on the lunar surface to furnish materials for colony construction (5). By U.C.0027 - when Degwin was ten years old - the first permanent lunar settlement, Von Braun City, had been established. Assuming that these lunar mining operations yielded profits even remotely proportional to the difficulty and danger of the work, an enterprising moon-mining mogul would be well-positioned to become a power broker in the newly established colony cluster parked in the moon's own back yard.

The downside of living and working on the moon for an extended period is, of course, the detrimental effect of low gravity. Bone and muscle loss, circulatory complications - it's simply not good for children and other living things. Barring advances in genetic engineering to address these problems, a man who would otherwise grow up to be a six-and-a-half-foot linebacker might well end up as a feeble runt after spending his formative years under one-sixth of Earth's gravity. The first generation of true space colonists, whose rotating habitats provide a full ration of healthy gravity, might well look at these stunted pioneers with a mixture of pity and contempt.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

However, this rain is artificially created, & falls according to a schedule, as Amuro noted before his face-to-face meeting w/ Char on a neutral colony.

He did nothing of the sort. Earlier in that episode (labelled episode 33 "A Fateful Encounter" on my list), he did gripe that "they could have had the decency to give me a weather schedule", which could simply be referring to a prediction forecast.

Seeing how there is no evidence whatsoever that the plumbing for artificial rain exists, it is logical to assume he merely used an imprecise word.

MSG: High Frontier has an explanation that the regularly "scheduled" rain isn't artificial but an artifact of a colony's own micro-climate and ecosystem.