Imperial Overlord wrote:The garrison/control issues just make the HH fleets seem even more inadequate. I agree that logistics and support are going to be issues and that some of the books have some impressive large scale organizations and achievements.
Well do you have some precise examples to go by? Which particular battles bug you? Honestly the most ones that feature Titans heavilly tend to be McNeill's anyhow (He seems to want to cram the Dies Irae into every novel he writes if he possibly can.) Except maybe Galaxy in Flames and that's Ben counter (which can be self explanatory.) There's also the fact the HH novels are primarily "SPACE MARINES ARE AWESOME SUPER BADASS" novels where you have several companies assaulting entire planets and such (basically "We're still fight like a Chapter" shoehorned into the context of a Heresy era legion.) and that focus will invariably mean "small scale" since at best case you still have millions of marines best to wage war in the entire galaxy.
but I know that Davin for example had cruiser and destroyer squadrons attached to it and at least 10K troops on the moon (and implied more) as a garrison. For a feral backwater that's quite alot, and probably representative of a lower limit, but even if it isn't the whole logistics and economics angle does work to explain apparent minimalism.
The first two Heresy ones are the worst. The planet of the Mega Arachnids, the whole "turn the crusade fleet around to deal with problems with one planet" the comparatively tiny size of the Warmaster's Army. He's in charge of galactic reconquest and it's happening a world at the a time. That Horus wasn't very demigodlike either didn't help.
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I am finishing up "Fulgrim" and was really impressed with the novel. One of the highlights that I enjoyed most was the depiction of the Great Crusade as rather unjust in many ways.
The two primary examples are the treatment of the Laerun and the Diasporex. The Laerun may have been evil chaos cultists - and frankly we don't even know about the evil part as they are depicted as being viscious and unwavering in the face of the Astartes while in the defense of their homes. The Laerun were not even hinted at being a race bent on conquest since they were based on a single world and seemed far more interested in feeling good and experiencing things as any decent follower of Slaanesh would. Their primary sin are being xenos who don't want to share their technology or accept the overlordship of Terra.
Of course one of my unanswered questions is why mess with the Laerun in the first place if the stated goal is to reform the human empire that had existed before? The Laerun were not human or ever part of the old Empire nor do they have humans in their thrall.
The Emperor's Children wiped out the entire civilization without any attempts at diplomacy or simply bringing them into compliance in some manner that preserved their race. They were exterminated for just being xenos. Not exactly noble in any shape or form.
Secondly the Diasporex are an even more egregious example of how twisted and brutal the Great Crusade is. Here are direct descendents of ancient Terra, still flying the same ships they used thousands of years ago who have now formed an alliance with aliens and live peacefully in their own little corner of the galaxy. In some ways I saw parallels to the Star Trek Federation in the makeup and outlook as portrayed in the novel.
In the end the Iron Hands and the Emperor's children decide to wipe them out for the dual sins of not accepting overlordship of the Emperor of Man and for mixing with Xenos. The Diasporex fleet is butchered to a man and the alien captain utters the words that we knew the moment we read about them "We just want to be left alone"
The Great Crusade does not care about the wishes of even direct human descendents of the Old Terran empire. They simply want to unite humanity - whether they want to or not. And in the end this entire affair was conceived by and initiated by the Emperor of Man. What does that tell us about him?
I love how these novels lay out the injustices of the "good guys" even as others are turning traitor. Are there really any good guys in this story?
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It's a cliche, but in 40K there really are no "good" guys, there are just less dickish/evil ones. The fact the Heresy novels haven't gone out of their way to portray the Imperium as a whole "good" is not surprising - not only does it fall into the "grimdark" category they so love, but 40K (especially the novels) has had a trend of having it be the individuals that might be "good" rather than whole organizations (EG characters like Cain, Gaunt, Uriel Ventris, Loken from the HH novels, etc.) AT best you can describe it as "Order vs Chaos (literally)" and that is a theme prevalent in a number of novels as well.
Likewise the whole "injustice" angle isn't really surprising - the "modern" Imperium is a place where slavery and eugenics are actively endorsed. Brutality towards Aliens or even rebel humans is just the stepping stone. (Then again, it seems rather unsurprising given our own human history, right up to modern times and the way the USA tends to act towards other countries and groups, even its own people. Warmongering and discrimination aren't a whole lot better.)
The portrayal of the Traitor Primarchs (at least some) as having more dimension to them than Snidely Whiplash is interesting, although overdone in some cases or underdone in others (I liked Magnus TOO much, and Fulgrim's POV wasn't done well enough since to me he came across as a spoiled, petulant child. Of course given the truth of his fall, I can't really say it's his fault either, but it still kind of ruins the book. I was actually more taken with Ferrus Manus' depiction, given how generally dickish the Iron Hands come across.)
The closest I've seen to actual, honest good guys so far (and I haven't read many of the HH books, so this's not all-inclusive) would be the Thousand Sons, which is ironic given that they're a traitor legion. Also, Russ can go choke on a melta bomb.
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