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The problem of asking a person to justify in any particular why is the same to ask what are the criteria to judging for others. I mean we have some baseline for it?

Like this bit with Halo 1. Hawkings likes Halo more then Halo 2-3-Reach-Quake12-Doom44. Having him justify smacks of just being judgemental because you are either actually curious or being a jackass. If you're curious, you can ask the man himself.

I mean I'm not commenting people's choices of fighters or RPGs just to see them justify 10-20 year old games that were broken mechanics that were changed in sequels or actual game breaking bug riddled ones that are only remembered in context of that particular generation.

Stark wrote:The idea it's 'better than 95% of FPS' when it isn't one and has crap gunplay is ridiculous, but hey.

Considering you walk through an environment and shoot/beat things, and have different types of weapons....

SS was the first of the FPS/RPG hybrids. And it did it pretty well.

As for better than 95% of all FPS -- I mean honestly, how many FPS can you remember from the past? Most of them were pretty much generic FPSes with some GIMMICK to make them stand out (cough blowing people's heads off in SOF1)

The controls in SS1 were dodgy since yes, it was the pre WASD era; but they weren't a complete "FUCK YOU I LAUGH AT YOUR PUNY ATTEMPTS" when I go back and replay it.

The single player campaign of Halo was by far the best of the series. It was a bit simple and primitive by PC standards, but it had an engaging 'Aliens meets Starship troopers' plot that puts those of its sequels (far superior in ever *other* respect) to shame.

Anyway, here is my list. In chronological order.

Little Big Adventure 2: Twinsen's Odyssey Amazing fun even after 13 years. Just reinstalled and played it the other week, in fact.

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Haven't played Twilight princess. That said, I can't imagine it pulls at the heart strings as much.

Planescape: Torment Doesn't feel dated at all after 11 years. Every time I've replayed it, I notice something I missed last time.

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri More memorable than any of the civ games. It still doesn't feel dated and still delivers hours of fun.

Baldur's Gate II Best voice acting ever in a video game, best turn-based tactical combat.

Star Wars: knights of the old republic Best Star Wars game.

Ninja Gaiden (xbox) Awesome game play. This may be surpassed by Bayonetta (which I'm currently playing)

Dead Rising Yes, dead rising. excellent replay value, engaging story, good voice acting.

World in Conflict No other game packs such amazing single player AND multiplayer in one box.

Project Gotham Racing 4 Best racing game I've played

MKSheppard wrote:

Stark wrote:The idea it's 'better than 95% of FPS' when it isn't one and has crap gunplay is ridiculous, but hey.

Considering you walk through an environment and shoot/beat things, and have different types of weapons....

SS was the first of the FPS/RPG hybrids. And it did it pretty well.

As for better than 95% of all FPS -- I mean honestly, how many FPS can you remember from the past? Most of them were pretty much generic FPSes with some GIMMICK to make them stand out (cough blowing people's heads off in SOF1)

The controls in SS1 were dodgy since yes, it was the pre WASD era; but they weren't a complete "FUCK YOU I LAUGH AT YOUR PUNY ATTEMPTS" when I go back and replay it.

Like GR highlights, you say it's 'better' based on nothing. It's a horribly clunky game with boring combat driven by it's then-unique 3D environment and survival issues. The idea it's a better FPS than Halo or MW2 or whatever is totally absurd. But then, you've probably never played them and are just saying 'better than 95%' based on absolutely nothing but a desire to inflate your totem.

But honestly anyone who says Planescape isn't dated is totally insane. The game is unplayably primitive and ugly, moreso even than Fallout. Many older games with more primitive art have dated much better (like StarControl).

Stark wrote:Like GR highlights, you say it's 'better' based on nothing. It's a horribly clunky game with boring combat driven by it's then-unique 3D environment and survival issues.

Yet it's far more memorable and replayable than a large portion of FPSes out there.

But then, you've probably never played them [Halo/MW2] and are just saying 'better than 95%' based on absolutely nothing but a desire to inflate your totem.

Heh.

Shep gets Halo 1 and 2 --- 2006

As for MW2; I do have MW1 -- I got it for $10-15 off thanks to Circut City's "We're dying!" sale. I haven't picked up MW2; because I'm waiting for it to come down in price -- because MW1/2 while being very graphically great are honestly not that memorable a game -- in MW1 you only really remember two levels -- the one where you ghillie suit through Chernobyl to blow a guy's arm off with a .50 Cal rifle, and the AC-130 level. The rest of the game is pretty forgettable; due to it's remarkably railroaded way of storytelling -- and while I had a couple good hours playing MW1 online after I finished SP -- the multi wasn't that impressive to suck me in for long term.

Repeating you like it more doesn't change anything; it jst proves GR right. That you have to hack the shit out of SS for it not to look and play like shit is a good indicator.

It's hilarious you think playing two FPS games makes you 'better than 95%' statement any more based in fact. I mean, SS can compete with the cinematics and AI of Halflufe, and the vehicles and open levels of Halo, or the team nature of R6, the tactical play of SWAT, etc? Wait it can't because it's primitive and you just like it, as GR said. Indeed the good things about SS gunplay (gun controls and cybernetics) are the 'gimmicks' you decry! LOL

Halo 1 had better character. Halo 2 had better setpieces and "wow" moments. And the Marines were far more useful. I'll say Halo, marginally.

Edit: wow, that's what I get for not noticing there was a page 4.

Stark wrote:That you have to hack the shit out of SS for it not to look and play like shit is a good indicator.

I didn't enable the higher resolutions (beyond 640 x 480) or Mouselook with the hack -- mainly the SSP Hack was just to get it to run decently fast on my system without issues. But what struck me about SS was how good everything in the game was put together -- the level layout and textures of SS are still good even today.

It's easy to go out and make some random shitty rock texture (I'm looking at you Rise of the Triad) -- it's a lot harder to make a texture that will not only look good, but age well; and very few games can achieve that objective.

It's even harder to make a game that keeps it's gameplay as it ages -- do you remember anything about SiN's gameplay other than it was about a guy with dreadlocks and one or two gratituous minigun + helicopter set pieces?

It's hilarious you think playing two FPS games makes you 'better than 95%' statement any more based in fact.

I've played a lot more than just those two games. Deus Ex was okay when I played it long ago; same for SiN; along with SOF1 and SOF2. Even Halflife was okay back in the day. But I wouldn't put those on my "all-time favorite games" list.

I mean, SS can compete with the cinematics and AI of Halflufe

What AI in halflife? And unlike Halflife; a large amount of the story in System Shock was subtitled. If you can realize why this is a good thing....

and the vehicles and open levels of Halo

Done earlier by Op Flashpoint.

or the team nature of R6

I liked Rainbow Six and Rogue Spear back in the day but the game had many flaws; particularly the insta-fail stealth missions; and overall it was like you said:

"walk walk walk, open door, shoot, walk walk, shit my guys got hung up in a doorway died, reset."

Rainbow Six 3 was pretty bad in that; due to the way they set up the play mechanic for breaching doors. You holstered your weapon when you triggered the door breaching charges -- even though all you had to do was hold your gun in one hand while you pulled out the remote trigger for the charge and then drop the remote.

By the time you had pulled your gun out again after triggering the charge; the bad guys on the other side of the door had shot you about fifty times.

the tactical play of SWAT, etc?

I have SWAT 3 or 4 somewhere; and it was actually pretty underwhelming to me.

Wait it can't because it's primitive and you just like it, as GR said. Indeed the good things about SS gunplay (gun controls and cybernetics) are the 'gimmicks' you decry! LOL

Hum.

1.) A decent storyline that works by the standards of PC gaming -- it's head and shoulders above the "String a bunch of random levels together and make up a quick story to fit it" practice as exemplified by MW2.

2.) The Levels are coherently designed and set up -- Citadel Station simply works and you feel like it's a real place.

3.) Weapons with multiple ammunition types.

4.) A early physics engine that also modelled effects such as weapon recoil, etc.

5.) The Cybernetic minigame and the other things like IIRC rerouting power to restore power to dead areas worked and didnt' break continuity. Early precursor to the lockpick and hacking games in FO3.

Halo 3: I bought this game in 2007 and it is still my most played game by far. It has an excellent single player campaign with an enjoyable story (although it was a little short). Most importantly, it is the best multiplayer game I have ever played. I did not even really like multiplayer games before I started playing the Halo series but now, three years after halo 3 came out I honestly have no desire to buy any new games for my 360 because this game's multiplayer is like digital crack. I have tried other shooters (MW2, halflife 2, Resistance2, perfect dark) but they don't just seem to stack up. The things I like the most about this game are:

every weapon is balanced and has a use (with the possible exception of the magnum)

vehicles, which most shooters don't even have are well integrated and add excitement to the gameplay

the graphics (at the time it came out) were good

the starting weapon doesn't suck (so many shooters fail to provide a decent starting weapon)

nothing is overpowered (except maybe the hornet, but its not in multiplayer by default)

forge, which adds near infinite map variations (I downloaded a millenium falcon map)

hayabusa armor

My second favorite game is KOTOR/KOTOR2

MKSheppard wrote:[
It's even harder to make a game that keeps it's gameplay as it ages -- do you remember anything about SiN's gameplay other than it was about a guy with dreadlocks and one or two gratituous minigun + helicopter set pieces?

I remember SiN's gameplay. It was based on Quake 2 engine and gameplay was very much like Q2. Some differences, but not too much. SiN was the game that had a more advanced engine than Half-Life and "prettier", but failed to impress in most other ways. It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't good either. Very run-of-the-mill FPS of the late 1990s. It was better than Daikatana, though

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Very run-of-the-mill FPS of the late 1990s. It was better than Daikatana, though

It's kind of hard to not be better than Daikatana. BTW; I love SiN's entire plot: You are John R. Blade, commander of HardCorps.

System Shock also had awesome music, and was the first game ever to introduce the audio diaries (originally they weren't audio, they were typed, they became that way in the CD version released later).

I mean shit, this game was released in 1994. I last played it - and finished it - in 2008. That's how much I like it.

Hey, let's all remember that tastes in gaming are subjective, and there can be people who love extremely flawed games.

Taking the Halo discussion, it is one thing to question the reasons behind its extreme popular acclaim, it is an entirely different thing to claim that it is a horrible game that no one should like.

One can argue objectively about the merits or demerits of a game, but no amount of arguing can make someone liking the game "wrong".

Again, take the original DooM games, wich I love and thouroughly enjoy, despite how simplistic and flawed they are, and how poorly they compare to many more modern titles. We can argue all day about the technical flaws of the game or about the sociological impact it had on gaming culture and about how deserving it was of praise, but that won't change my love for it, nor is it wrong for me or anyone to like it.

Of course, if I let my love for the game blind me from the objectively measurable flaws it has, that's an entirely different thing.
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Oskuro wrote:Again, take the original DooM games, wich I love and thouroughly enjoy, despite how simplistic and flawed they are, and how poorly they compare to many more modern titles.

I actually keep DOOM 1 and 2 on both my computers (Laptop desktop); and run them through either dosbox or a game engine interpreter. They're a good way to waste some time -- especially when you've put in your pulls at Archives II; and you have to wait 45 minutes to get DOCUMENTS OF 1960S GRAPHS.

For this purpose, they still work pretty good unlike say ROTT (Rise of The Triad).

Speaking of the Doom games -- I would not recommend Doom 3 to anyone as a "best of" game. It starts out okay, and then quickly turns into an annoying shitfest that requires mods like "tape flashlight to gun" to make it work; and after the fiftieth monster closet....well you'll hate the game.

Stark wrote:But honestly anyone who says Planescape isn't dated is totally insane. The game is unplayably primitive and ugly, moreso even than Fallout.

Planescape has beautifully designed graphics (a huge amount of detail is crammed into the world) and strong artistic direction (it's a genuinely alien fantasy world without being a random grab-bag the way most of the FF games are). The problems are, in descending order of importance, resolution, frame count and primitive CG for the pre-rendered graphics. These problems are suffered by every game that tried to go for a realistic look at that level of graphics power or below. If you write off Planescape as ugly (and not in the sense that some of it is intentionally ugly), then you pretty much write off every 1990s game that tried for a realistic look. Which is ok I guess, as personal taste, but it is unreasonable to claim that Fallout is less ugly.

PS:T has significant game design problems, but the interface is not one of them. The Infinity Engine's hybrid realtime / turn-based gameplay later became the industry standard for MMORPGs; PS:T plays the same way as Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, but it has an early version of the radial menu setup later used as the basis for Neverwinter Night's interface. I can't see how you could write off PS:T as 'primitive' without having a general dislike for all Infinity Engine games; and I don't know why you would, because they all play much faster and smoother than the Fallout games. This is why Van Buren (the original Fallout 3) had a similar hybrid real-time / turn-based system; it was simply more playable than playing X-Com in a desert with three characters.

System Shock 1 had a lot of good ideas, but it was just written too early to work well. The concept demanded immersion and the technology couldn't quite deliver. I actually prefer Hired Guns to System Shock 1 because the later fell into a kind of frustrating uncanny valley of annoyance. System Shock 2 was awesome because it used the same general design/plot, but technology had advanced enough to make it all work.

MKSheppard wrote:Speaking of the Doom games -- I would not recommend Doom 3 to anyone as a "best of" game. It starts out okay, and then quickly turns into an annoying shitfest that requires mods like "tape flashlight to gun" to make it work; and after the fiftieth monster closet....well you'll hate the game.

To me, Doom3 felt like a high-school class reunion, where you get to meet your old pals and have some fun reminiscing and remembering old times, but ultimately end up dissapointed when it dawns on you that these rather mundane people are not the same ones you knew, and you will never get them back, nor will you get back those golden carefree times.

Guardian Legend - its a top down shooter, combined with a mapper like Zelda, the score is also your XP, you have extra weapons, but the more you use the extra weapons the weaker your main gun gets, the alternate screen includes a map showing where you are and where the bosses are, the complex password system included a way to check it so you know you copied it correctly, and the controls are extremely responsive. Seriously, give it a try, it is $.99 on Ebay.

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri - for reasons above

FF3/6 - for reasons above

Super Metroid (Mother Brain battle is wonderfully done)

Lords of Magic - good relaxing game

MKSheppard wrote: The controls in SS1 were dodgy since yes, it was the pre WASD era; but they weren't a complete "FUCK YOU I LAUGH AT YOUR PUNY ATTEMPTS" when I go back and replay it.

It really wasn't the pre-WASD era though. System Shock came out the same time as Doom 2, (Indeed, I recall UK PC Gamer reviewed them in the same issue), and everyone was already using WASD + mouse then.

In fact, WASD works in System Shock, but with no mouselook you have to use Q and E to turn, as I said, crap controls..

Oskuro wrote: Again, take the original DooM games, wich I love and thouroughly enjoy, despite how simplistic and flawed they are, and how poorly they compare to many more modern titles. We can argue all day about the technical flaws of the game or about the sociological impact it had on gaming culture and about how deserving it was of praise, but that won't change my love for it, nor is it wrong for me or anyone to like it.

Depends what you want from a game. Doom is pure run and gun explodo action of a kind that is sadly missing these days, it's not deep or tacticool, but it's still fun to shotgun a ridiculous hellcritter in the face from time to time.

Vendetta wrote:Doom is pure run and gun explodo action of a kind that is sadly missing these days, it's not deep or tacticool, but it's still fun to shotgun a ridiculous hellcritter in the face from time to time.

Serious Sam 1 & 2 had the same kind of feel but even more enemies. Both had remakes released recently. I wouldn't include either in any sort of 'best games ever' list but they're fun if you want a mindless twitch FPS.

Starglider wrote:Planescape has beautifully designed graphics

I'll second that; anyone who thinks Planescape torment is unplayably primitive and ugly is totally insane.

PS:T has significant game design problems, but the interface is not one of them.

Hey, in what other game do you get to play an immortal?

Honestly, I have a hard time deciding between BGII and PS:T. I imagine its a little bit like trying to decide which of your children you love more. BGII has more emotional impact and a better tactical element, PS:T is more original, better written, and arguably better looking.

Modax wrote: Hey, in what other game do you get to play an immortal?

The upcoming Knights contract. I think the Legacy of Kain games count by default.

Starglider wrote: Planescape has beautifully designed graphics (a huge amount of detail is crammed into the world) and strong artistic direction (it's a genuinely alien fantasy world without being a random grab-bag the way most of the FF games are). The problems are, in descending order of importance, resolution, frame count and primitive CG for the pre-rendered graphics.

And it looks like blurry grey shit for HOURS of gameplay.

Starglider wrote:These problems are suffered by every game that tried to go for a realistic look at that level of graphics power or below. If you write off Planescape as ugly (and not in the sense that some of it is intentionally ugly), then you pretty much write off every 1990s game that tried for a realistic look. Which is ok I guess, as personal taste, but it is unreasonable to claim that Fallout is less ugly.

Fallout's graphics are more varied, brighter, and slightly sharper. They ALSO didn't ruin the display by having their utterly retarded 'highlight the squares you can see' system, and the viewport is larger. Games with small viewports always suck. Don't get butthurt because I said Fallout looks better; Fallout is ugly too. 90s art doesn't age.

Starglider wrote:PS:T has significant game design problems, but the interface is not one of them. The Infinity Engine's hybrid realtime / turn-based gameplay later became the industry standard for MMORPGs; PS:T plays the same way as Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, but it has an early version of the radial menu setup later used as the basis for Neverwinter Night's interface. I can't see how you could write off PS:T as 'primitive' without having a general dislike for all Infinity Engine games; and I don't know why you would, because they all play much faster and smoother than the Fallout games. This is why Van Buren (the original Fallout 3) had a similar hybrid real-time / turn-based system; it was simply more playable than playing X-Com in a desert with three characters.

You got me, I hate Baldurs Gate too. But it's not as ugly, because it's not a concrete pizza with grey hashmarks on it for hours. The interface is not only clunky but dragged down by the laughable interface art (oh look, my inventory screen has SKULLS). Being hybrid doesn't have ANYTHING to do with a bunch of shitty right-click menus or being poorly animated grey blobs.

Sorry guys, looking at this for hours on end (only with way more LOS hashes) is horrible. The game has an interesting setting and good writing, but liking that doesn't make the game less ugly. Anyone who talks about computer games like loving children has no place telling someone they're insane for disliking endless grey smears covered in fetch quests.

Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess This was my first full 3D Zelda experience. I never owned Wind Waker or Ocarina of Time so I never got too far into either. To some it didn't do much new (outside of the wolf gameplay), but it was a tight next gen Zelda. Controls were great, Link was as brutal as ever with those sword moves, the puzzles were challenging, the boss fights were fun, there were some great set piece sequences, and then some. The game simply built upon a formula that always worked.

Though you can't blame others for not liking it, since sometimes you just can't get that feeling that the original gave you (like seeing that full 3D world for the first time).

The World Ends With You A must play if you own a DS. Whether you like JRPGs or not, play this game. Great story, likable and memorable characters, tight controls, originality, fun gameplay, surprisingly repayable, and so much more. Sequel please.

Mario Kart 64 Back when the whole 4 players on the same screen thing was so awesome. I can still have a blast with this game. And also, I like being able to play a Rainbow Road level without having to worry about falling off. Mario Kart is practically a race-platformer now.

Pokemon Gold & Silver The peak of the series. We all love it despite its flaws. Shamefully, the remake while fun, just didn't give me the same feeling I got back then.

Tetris Attack The most fun I've ever had with a puzzle game.

Phoenix Wright: Trials and Tribulations In terms of gameplay, it didn't add anything new to the series, but it combined a great story with the new features from Justice for all and made one hell of a game. Add in an awesome soundtrack, great writing, and a villain that still scares the crap out of me, and you have yourself a great game.

Whiplash wrote:Mario Kart 64 Back when the whole 4 players on the same screen thing was so awesome. I can still have a blast with this game. And also, I like being able to play a Rainbow Road level without having to worry about falling off. Mario Kart is practically a race-platformer now.

Falling off is the entire point of Rainbow Road. I actually liked the MK64 Rainbow Road track on its own merits, but beating it isn't nearly as satisfying as any of the open sided versions.

RedImperator wrote:

Whiplash wrote:Mario Kart 64 Back when the whole 4 players on the same screen thing was so awesome. I can still have a blast with this game. And also, I like being able to play a Rainbow Road level without having to worry about falling off. Mario Kart is practically a race-platformer now.

Falling off is the entire point of Rainbow Road. I actually liked the MK64 Rainbow Road track on its own merits, but beating it isn't nearly as satisfying as any of the open sided versions.

I have rage quit syndrome when it comes to platformers and from time to time, it translates into other genres with similar parts.

But I'll admit, finishing Rainbow Road on MK64 is no wear near as satisfying as the other Rainbow Roads.