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If you want dragons, i can always change into one via wildshape . You know, into an actual true dragon
Of course, i am propably not going to do that, since it is only a wyrmling - tough it makes a nice replacement feat for natural spell, since dragons are capable of casting anyway.

Dragons are dragons young missy. You can't wild shape them unless you are a dragon yourself. Or through a great investment to get a feat of Dragon Wild Shaping. See, this is because us dragons are so special that we are our own type. You have to settle for animals, plants and elementals only. See my great draconic knowledge allows me to know these things. Besides, you are a druid, if you couldn't become some type of elvish catgirl and still cast spells what use would you be? Thus you must achieve this "Natural Spell" feat when you have reached the appropriate level. Anything else would be unwise. You shall have to try much harder if you want to become a dragon like me.

(Wild Shape only allows you to assume to form of things with the animal type. Dragons have the Dragon type and thus aren't valid wildshapes unless you take the Dragon Wild Shape feat from Draconomicon. Besides, you are a druid, you just lose your first feat after you get wildshape and receive natural spell as a bonus feat. That's how the game actually works. The books try to say something different, but they are just wrong. )

*pants*

Whew, OK, I've been reading a lot. Mostly the SRD, which is awesome.

As my experience is low, I'm gonna go straight ranger for a while. I think I'll get a "riding dog" at level 4 and RP it as a war dog of some sort. How good are they at grappling anyways?

I'll see about getting a sheet up later today.

Riding Dogs are pretty damn good - if they are trained for war, which is nothing special for them.
They are fast enough to make for a decent mount, can trip enemies while attacking normally, inflict decent damage and are not too shabby themselves.

If i were you, i would try to get a riding dog of the Warbeast-Variant (Monster Manual II). That gives you a bonus to ride checks, and the mount gains +10 feet movement speed (almost as fast as a horse then), an additional hitdice (which will grant the dog an additional feat as well), +3 Strenght and Constitution and +2 Wisdom and +1 to Spot and Listen checks.
That option is IMO too powerful for an actual combat companion, but since the animal companions of Rangers are not that good anyway, i would go for it if possible (ask Norade about it).
From Ranger level eight onwards, you can also have access to flying mounts such as Dire Eagles, Bats or Hawks (the latter only if you are small).
Just remember that your animal companion won't be a primary fighter - it scales with half your level. It is best as a mount, scout or flanker.
Don't forget the possibility to buy some light armor for your mount - or even heavier armor if it is not supposed to fight or if you want to spend one of it's feats on it.

This is a good ranger guide,
This guide is for druids, but contains good information about animal companions.

Overall, i would recommend being a mounted ranger, preferably a ranged one if you are a halfling, tough melee works well too.

Getto-Edit of sorts:
Oh, and if you want a better animal companion, try the Prestige Ranger class. Take one Level in Druid and three in Fighter (or two and two) and spend two talents (which the Fighter levels give you anyway) to get what you want - you won't even be slower to get it than with playing a normal ranger, AND your companion and spellcasting will be better.
You will be restricted to non-metallic armors due to your druid-level tough - unless you take a cleric-level instead with the Animal-domain (which grants the necessary spell). In that case, you will have acces to cleric-spells instead - tough you still get some druid-spells trough your domain.

Well, I'm not going to be using the riding dog as a mount, since both it and my character are medium sized. Should I take Ride or not in that case?

Hmm, this is interesting stuff. I guess now comes the stage where I ask the GM if I can do this stuff. In no particular order:
1. Can I take the warbeast variant of the Riding Dog as an animal companion (one I get one)?
2. Can I go the Prestige Ranger route?

Weren't you playing a Halfling? They are small, which is actually a HUGE advantage for riders - you can ride on more things, and your mount fits into most dungeons.
Either way, you can start with a normal mount right from Level 1 - everyone can have a horse, and a horse is not bad after all. Later on, you can take that horse as an animal companion - and once your effective companion level is four, you can start out on combat or flying mounts.
If you want to ride something unusual, you can eventually shrink or grow your mount for a duration of several hours with druid or ranger spells. With a little luck, that can even be made permanent (a similar spell can be made permanent on persons, so why not on animals as well?). However, unless you want to get something to large (or medium for small characters) size permanently so that you can ride it, it is probably better to cast it on demand - the spells will last long enough to go into a dungeon safely. Of course, if you shrink your mount you won't be able to ride on it any more.

You can ride on pretty much anything that is at least one size larger than you and has four limbs (yes, you can ride on bears and dragons). A mount effectively provides you with a free movement action at a higher speed than your own, making you very agile in combat. There are also nice mounted-combat feats.
For more, see this guide.

Yeah, I'll be giving everybody a free light horse or less for a mount. I say or less, because not all mounts cost the same.

I'm the human ranger that is tenuously in Party 2 right now. I'm also using a longbow, which I can't shoot from a mount anyways. Composite longbows are expensive

When sending out links to your character sheets PM me so they're easy to have going all at the same time. Just a reminder I'd like them in by Sunday. We also have another IRL friend on mine joining likely as a Half-Ork Tank build of some type.

They are only 25 gp more expensive than a normal longbow (if unmodified for higher strength) - that is next to nothing.
Absolutely no reason not to go for mounted combat - other than, well, it being hard to use underground/indoors.

Actually, if you are in the same group as me, we could probably use a good melee build, since we have a lot of casters. Of course, you can do both as a ranger.

I would offer you reduce animal and person spells if we go into a dungeon, but unfortunately the latter has only a duration of minutes instead of hours.

From what i know, you want to play an archery ranger. Overall, you will need more than a ranger class to get the most out of it. That's why i am suggesting using the prestige Ranger - or perhaps even discarding Ranger altogether and just going for another class, since we already have two divine spellcasters.
As i said, we could use a tank - although our Cleric might take that role.

Yes, this is getting complicated And i don't want to discourage you from playing a ranger, but i think you might need some extras than just a straight ranger to get the most out of it.

Semi-Edit:
Oh, if a Half-ork joins our group, that's great
In that case, i would aim for the Order of the Bow Initiate (Complete Warrior) - it allows you to really dish out damage on short ranges. It will ruin your spellcasting and Animal Companion tough (too weak to be usefull), so you might reconsider being a Ranger.

Not sure on parties yet, as I said that other grouping was just a very rough thing without seeing builds.

I can't find the answer to this anywhere, so I'll ask here: when does each class get additional feats? And how many do you start with?

Hawkwings wrote:I can't find the answer to this anywhere, so I'll ask here: when does each class get additional feats? And how many do you start with?

You get a single feat to start, an extra one if you're human, and one every three levels barring bonus feats from classes.

Hawkwings wrote:I can't find the answer to this anywhere, so I'll ask here: when does each class get additional feats? And how many do you start with?

You start with one feat, humans with two.
You get another feat every three levels - on third, sixth and so on. That information is on page 22 of the Players Handbook.
Several classes also get additional feats, tough these are generally limited to specific ones '(Fighters get combat-oriented feats (lots of them), wizards metamagic feats etc.).

If you want to grab a few additional feats, two levels in Fighter will give you two additional feats, as well as good hitpoints and BAB (base attack bonus). Two Levels in Monk gives you Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist AND Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows AND Evasion. Evasion is a very powerfull ability - when you make a reflex save against spells, you normally take half damage on success with Evasion, you take no damage on a Success. But you can also get that as a Rogue, which will also grant you two levels of sneak attack (2D6 extra damage against surprised enemies) when you take three levels and make you much better at finding traps. The Scout-class (Complete Adventurer) can do a very similar thing.

Here is an example build for a good ranged class:
Scout 1: +1D6 damage if you move and make a ranged attack, trapfinding, lot's of skillpoints.
Scout 2: +1 on Initiative and Fortitude Saves, you can not be a victim to surprise attacks
Scout 3: +2D6 move/hit damage, +10 ft to your movement, you leave no tracks
Scout 4: A Bonus Feat
Scout 5: Evasion, +1 AC while moving
Warrior 1: Bonus Feat
Warrior 2: Bonus Feat
In total, that would be 7 feats: 2 (start)+2(level)+3(classes) feats.
If you take Point Blank Shot (+1 damage if enemy within 30 ft.), Precise Shot (no penalty for shooting into melee), Rapid Shot (one additional attack with bow) and Weapon Focus (any bow) you still have three feats left for whatever you want. You can then take the Order of the Bow Initiate prestige class (Complete Warrior):
OotB 1: +1D8 Damage whenever the enemy is within 30 ft (!) regardless of surprise etc. Stacks with the mobile attack from the Scout.
OotB 2: You can shoot while in melee yourself without problems
OotB 3: +2D8 damgage to close enemies
OotzB 4: Greater Weapon Focus for your bow (+2 on attack rolls)
OotB 5: +3D8 damage to close enemies
OotB 6: You get Sharpshooting: Negates most of the enemies cover.
OotB 7: +4D8 damage to close enemies

At that point, you would be level 14 with a BAB of +12/7/2 (and +3 extra with bows), Saves of +7/9/5 (Fortitude/Reflex/Will), Evasion, good feats for ranged attacks, +2D6+4D8 damage if you fire at close enemies with your bow (which is about six times the damage of a bow) and faster movement.
In other words, you would be an excellent Skirmisher. You have no spells etc, but you are way better at shooting than a ranger. If you build your character well, you are also good at hiding, sneaking and can spot traps as well.

If you get 6 more levels in Scout (which would put you at level 20), you get 1D6 extra damage, are not impeded by terrain, can hide anywhere, can blindsense anyting within 30 feet and get another 10 feet of movement (you are not nearly as fast as a horse).
Or you could forgo the last two levels of OotB, get two more figher levels instead, take Weapon Specialization and Piercing Weapon Mastery instea (+4 Damage, +2 attack and +20% range with bows). Improved Precise shot is even better than Sharpshooter, so you don't need that sixth level of BotB anyway.
And much more.

If you want close combat capilities as well, spells or animal companions, you obviously need another build - but if you want to be an archer, that's a good way to go. Personally, i would look for ways to taunt the enemy into focussing on you (i have no idea right now ) or to hinder their movement (Ranged Pin is a good feat for that).

If you want to look at feats, by the way, look here: All 3.5 feats, well sorted, described and with reference to their sourcebook.


Edit: Oh, and since you are human, i STRONGLY suggest taking the "Able Learner" feat - it allows you to consider all skills class skills as long as one of your classes has them as such.
That allows you to maintain your skills in trap finding/hiding while you take OotB, which is very important - especially if you invest into an Intelligence of 14 or so.

Edit: Oh, and since you are human, i STRONGLY suggest taking the "Able Learner" feat - it allows you to consider all skills class skills as long as one of your classes has them as such.
That allows you to maintain your skills in trap finding/hiding while you take OotB, which is very important - especially if you invest into an Intelligence of 14 or so.

Don't bother, I don't use class skills so long as your character has a reason to have the skills you'd giving them.

Ye be damned, editing limit.

Okay, Hawkings - here is my proposal for your starting character.
You need to take able learner at first level, you can not take it later on. In order to be able to use the Composite Longbow, you will need at least one level in fighter - after that, i would also suggest taking a light shield or buckler, and you may change your melee weapon as well (since you can use it now). You can do that on your next level without problems.
Later on, taking a Composite Longbow can add your Strenght bonus of +2 to your damage (it would cost 300 gp).

Once again, no need for Able Learner.

Norade wrote:Once again, no need for Able Learner.

Ah, right then, oversaw that the first time.
Replaced it with Precise Shot, making him a capable Ranged Combatant right off the bat.

Serafina wrote:

Norade wrote:Once again, no need for Able Learner.

Ah, right then, oversaw that the first time.
Replaced it with Precise Shot, making him a capable Ranged Combatant right off the bat.

That's okay, I just wanted to be sure people knew that. I don't like feats being wasted on skills that a character should reasonably have.

Darn you, edit limit!!

Another idea is taking one level in Ranger and taking the Swift Hunter feat - you will get favored enemies AND you can apply your skirmish damage against them even if they are normally immune to it. Select undeads, constructs, oozes, elementals or plants to get the latter bonus - that removes a major weakness at the cost of 1 level in Fighter (as well as Weapon Specialization and Expertise) or the ultimate loss of the second speed upgrade at high levels if you take one less level in Scout - but you gain three favored enemies as well (making undead, elementals and constructs much less scary)! Plus, you will be able to track and get better saves as well.

Also, keep in mind that Skirmish works with melee attacks as well, so you can also build a good hybrid (the prestige class doesn't tough).
Also, while Skirmish works with Manyshot and multiple attacks etc, your prestige class ability is based on only a single shot as a simple action. However, it COULD work together - you will still fire only with a standard action, and you get the bonus damage only once (the feat states so, that's why it could work). But an additional arrow is an additional arrow, especially since it can be another type than the first one. But generally, single high-damage precise attacks are better than multiple low-damage imprecise onces.
However, Shot on the Run allows you greater movement flexibility and does not work with it - but it requires two additional feats, Dodge and Mobility - the latter is usefully tough. However, you might take Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild) instead - that gives you +2 AC as long as you are moving 40+ feet and replaces Dodge as a prerequisite.

We currently have another stealth class in our (probable) group, so you two are going to make a good team. With Invisibility or Wildshape, i might be able to aid you as well, which would give us a Spellcaster, one Ranged Attacker and one Melee Attacker for pure stealth runs (if necessary).
About your only weakness is your relatively low will save - you might want to dump some Charisma for that - if you get at least 13 Wisdom, you can also extend the Range of your Skirmish ability to 60 feet with another feat (Ranged Skirmisher), tough it doesn't work for your Prestige Class (again). You actually get Iron Will in your Scout feat list, so it could be a worthwhile investment.
You might consider taking the "Spot the Weak Spot" skill trick - requires 12 ranks in Spot + 2 skill points to buy. Spend a standard action and your next attack is a touch attack. Devastating against heavily armored enemies if you have surprise.


All in all, i believe that will you put up to the same level as the other characters while staying a purely mundane build - on level 20, you could deal an average damage of 40+magic weapon&arrow (say, 48) per round, with an attack bonus of +22+dexterity+magic weapon&arrow (Say, 33) AND the potential to use that as a touch attack when you can spare one round. Plus you are pretty hard to catch and a hard target for ranged attacks and spells. Not bad IMO, especially if you figure in your utility potential (High Stealth and Perception, good Trap Finding, potentially ranged debuffs).
Definitely than any ranger build i can think off right now.


Edit: By the way, here is a Scout Guide

Sheesh, way too much information. Remember I'm a noob here! But thanks. I'm gonna draft up a level 1 ranger to start, and explore from there.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.p ... tid=223783

Okay, I think that's the best I can come up with considering I don't have all the extra books. Is there anything I can improve easily?
I checked a couple of the local second hand stores and all they had for DnD books was Book of Vile Darkness. I picked it up but nothing in there seemed useful.

So far I have five sheets in and waiting for 4 more. The classes range from T1 to T4 so far so we should be able to run a good game so long as the T1's don't push things and play a bit on the weaker side.

Just so people can compare:

Stormin – Human Cleric – HP: 11 AC: 15 Great Sword +3 2d6+3 / Sling +1 1d4+3 F: +5 R: +1 W: +4
Serafina – Elf Druid – HP:9 AC:14 Scimitar +0 1d6 / Shortbow +1 1d6 F: +3 R: +1 W: +5
Kheitain – Halfling Rogue – HP:8 AC:18 Boomerang +5 1d3+1 / Sarrash +2 1d8+1 F: +2 R: +6 W: +1
Sorchus – Faun Spellthief – HP:8 AC:16 Dagger +3 1d4 / Light Crossbow +3 1d8 F: +0 R: +3 W: +2
Rossum – Human Artificer – HP:6 AC:14 Light Crossbow +1 1d8 F: +0 R: +2 W: +2

Soon you shall revel in my draconic glory. I must first prepare my horde of mundane, semi-useful, inexensive items gathered from the various tomes I have access to. Then you shall all bow before me and my mighty dragon-y chaotic goodness. Quiver in anticipation!