Battle of Macragge...otherverse style

[Norade]

That said, what makes you think the Nids can isolate the system?

Does it matter? It's part of the OP scenario.

Given warning even an hours warning then the Empire can near certainly scramble the forces needed to defeat it. Besides, when we're talking about a planet that is fine holding out for 3 months there is no way there won't be reinforcements OP be damned.

[Ford Prefect]

Are you serious? The OP has a set a scenario, and we should debate that scenario on good faith, as opposed to completely ignoring it for ... some reason. Do you come into a thread about a fight between Batman and the Incredible Hulk and then say 'obviously Superman shows up and beats up the Hulk for Batman because they're best friends'? No, of course not because, despite that being what would happen, within the bounds of an internet debate, the scenario set by the OP excludes that possibility by implication. Except in this case it's not implied, it's actually outright stated.

Do you understand? Or do I have to draw a diagram to show you how badly you're missing the point?

[Norade]

Are you serious? The OP has a set a scenario, and we should debate that scenario on good faith, as opposed to completely ignoring it for ... some reason. Do you come into a thread about a fight between Batman and the Incredible Hulk and then say 'obviously Superman shows up and beats up the Hulk for Batman because they're best friends'? No, of course not because, despite that being what would happen, within the bounds of an internet debate, the scenario set by the OP excludes that possibility by implication. Except in this case it's not implied, it's actually outright stated.

Do you understand? Or do I have to draw a diagram to show you how badly you're missing the point?

Okay, fine, even though it makes no sense given the way we know Star Wars to fight and the fact that this would be like saying the Spiderman doesn't get his webs for a versus, Coruscant still survives intact.

In the Imperial ear given that they get warning there is no reason the entire fleet of the Imperial Center Oversector won't show up before the planet is cut off and even if they can't we know that in the Imperial era they have a fleet of at least 24 ISD's, an unknown number of Centax-class heavy frigates launching from one of Coruscant's moons, and many smaller craft as well as a possible command vessel. We also know they have a minefield, Golan II space stations, a pair of planetary shields, the strong likelihood of additional theater shields, and roof top turbo laser batteries on a scale equal to those mounted on capital ships. The is also the buried Lusankya that can be brought out to ensure the planetary defense is headed by at least one large scale command vessel. Not to mention that Palpatine has a decent chance of using the force to sense a large threat coming so there may be even more defenses than usual. It is unlikely that the Tyranids get close to landing in this scenario.

Now for the NR era the fleet might be smaller, but in general it ends the same with the Nids stopping at the shield and either leaving or being destroyer by the fleet as they try to get in.

[Ford Prefect]

Okay, fine, even though it makes no sense given the way we know Star Wars to fight and the fact that this would be like saying the Spiderman doesn't get his webs for a versus, Coruscant still survives intact.

It's not like that at all. It isn't even remotely like that. If you want a visual metaphor, limiting the forces present in a versus debate is here on Earth, while you are in orbit around Neptune, with your head firmly lodged in your own ass.

[Norade]

Okay, fine, even though it makes no sense given the way we know Star Wars to fight and the fact that this would be like saying the Spiderman doesn't get his webs for a versus, Coruscant still survives intact.

It's not like that at all. It isn't even remotely like that. If you want a visual metaphor, limiting the forces present in a versus debate is here on Earth, while you are in orbit around Neptune, with your head firmly lodged in your own ass.

It's a weakness that against an equal enemy would be crippling and takes away one of Star Wars largest advantages over the 40k universe. Star Wars doesn't have large fleets waiting around in a single system because they can expect reinforcements from an outside system in hours at best and a few days at worst. Coruscant is also special in that it can hold out for months without any fear of attack and have forces that can relieve them in that time thus making it the only thing that would even be around to have other forces save it.

[lordofchange13]

Goshdurn it who durn went and let the hicks out?

in about 40 minutes after some googling you did a complete turnabout when just a couple posts ago you were saying that superman can do two things against the tyranids: Fuck and All.

Oh - and soops doesnt travel at lightspeed, he travels at Super-Speed - and to him Lightning appears to be moving in slow motion. Or so according to an 80s issue of comic.

??? Im confused at what you saying, i didn't make a turnabout, i said that if a man through purly biological means can move at 99.9999c then DC dosn't follow the same rules of physics, thuse making it futil to argue my cass.

[lordofchange13]

[quote]Goshdurn it who durn went and let the hicks out? [quote]

Are you implying im a hick? I may be in the south and white, but that dosn't make me a hick. if this is purly about my spellin well....

[Batman]

All you have to do to make people stop complaining about your positively atrocious spelling and grammar is improve on it

[Eviscerator]

Also inhindsight i checked the tyranids codex(5th) which tells of the tyranid fighters blades cuting through forcefield much stronger them those generated by the greenlantern like they were not there. your punny earth will fall with a big psyker scream.

In proper Azn-chinky boy english yes = The Fifth Edition of the Tyranids Codex - and it described "Tyranid blades cutting through forcefields with ease as if the forcefields were not there). I am pretty sure that (Insert Forcefield here) is much stronger than any a Green Lantern might be able to generate. Hence my conclusion is that Your Puny Earth shall fall and the echoes of it's death shall be heard a thousand planets away.

No, it's not purly about your spelling - its about your spelling and other stuff. Below the belt very dishonorable etc etc.

Grab a Glock?

[Eviscerator]

[/Oh -

??? Im confused at what you saying, i didn't make a turnabout, i said that if a man through purly biological means can move at 99.9999c then DC dosn't follow the same rules of physics, thuse making it futil to argue my cass.

No - only about a couple posts before that you were saying that DCU = the Suck and the millions - billions - trillions of Hive Ships would ensure earth fell.

Stuff like this:
even if all the heros and villiens got to gether to fight the tyranids it would take to long,

whill tyranid strike fleets git in low orbit to launch ther pods filled with warriors to kill the all rady streched forces.

all the superman level guys cant hold off a army of this magnitude!

DC does follow the same rules of physics... well. they do bend it a little in cases

It's a Trap?

[Serafina]

Who came up with the "millions of hive ships" anway?
Millions is far to huge. Ten thousands maybe - but that would include a shitload of light escorts.
Millions of ships would be FAR to huge - such a fleet would not only outnumber whole segmentum or the whole imperial fleet, but they would also have to deploy quadrillion of troops - if they only carried trillions, you would have less than million troops per large ship.

Either way, it doesn't make sense. Tyranids have many millions or billions of land troops on actual invasions, but only thousands of ships.

[Batman]

Who came up with the "millions of hive ships" anway?

That'd be whatshisname13. He apparently thinks this is DC Earth vs every Tyranid in existance as opposed to the actual OP scenario.

[Bakustra]

For both Coruscants, the Tyranids would likely be unable to force through the shield, but they would eventually be able to force a capitulation through a long-term siege. The Empire would be able to hold out longer than the New Republic, but both would only be able to do so for a limited time. This is assuming that the Tyranids don't move on to easier prey, but we have little knowledge of what they would do in such a situation; massive shielding systems are not something they are likely to have encountered before. Full mobilization for the Empire and New Republic would include the sector fleet, while the Empire might be able to call in the Azure Shield or Hammer Commands before the shadow falls. Ultimately, against thousands of ships roughly on par with them, they will be worn down and destroyed, with no way to retreat or evacuate. All they can hope to do is inflict as much damage as possible. Once on the ground, they may theoretically have been damaged enough to land only a tithe of their forces, but they still would be dealing with a near-starved populace and a landscape filled with nooks and crannies to hide and store biomass. Ultimately, Coruscant would fall in both instances barring near-miracles and crippling stupidity on the part of the Tyranids.

Star Trek is swept aside in space, but the presence of a planet-wide transporter network would allow them to inflict far more casualties than the space disparity would suggest, at least until the Nids start battering down space stations. nBSG dies even quicker; the lack of transporters, phasers, or other nifty weapons that could serve as force multipliers for Star Trek aren't present there, and nuclear weapons in this instance are a suicidal solution. The Hive Mind can simply withdraw most of its forces and give them the choice between wearing down their nuke supply, or dealing with rampaging, near-invincible Tyranids, even in small groups. Even if it doesn't do that, they can cannibalize each other for reinforcements if necessary.

The Starship Troopers movie lasts only a little while as well. Not much to say about them. The book, meanwhile, lacks any sort of early-warning FTL system, as the Bugs were able to destroy Buenos Aires in a raid without any real alert. "Nova bombs" might be useful, but as pyrrhic as the Colonials using nukes... assuming that they merely carve through the crust. If they're the planet-smashers that Heinlein fanboys claim.... they're of limited utility against the Tyranids, unless they somehow have a power-source denser than Star Wars' with which to power such a bomb (they can be carried by their ships, which most assuredly are not Death-Star sized).

Marvel and DC Earth are able to fight the Tyranids with ease. Superman's "vulnerability" to magic is really not much of one. All it means is that Captain Marvel can fight on equal levels with him and sometimes Mr. Mxyzptlk can mess with him, usually, but at other times he clearly outclasses the Marvel Family put together and Mxyzptlk can only screw with him through Lois and Jimmy. He has survived being stabbed with magic swords, shot with magic arrows, and has shrugged off mystic attacks that knocked out Wonder Woman, who is of similar power and magically-empowered, and Zauriel, who is an angel. Even then, there are still the Marvel Family, the Martian Manhunter (I assume that this is an idealized comic-book setting), Wonder Woman, and others that are in his weight class and without the vulnerability. These are only temporary stopgaps until the Phantom Stranger tells somebody how to get rid of them, of course .

Marvel has the (sigh) Sentry, who is Superman-level, Dr. Strange, who could turn them all into ferrets (or teleport them away), Dr. Doom, who could do the same, Thor, who is in the same general weight class as Superman (slightly weaker ordinarily), and many others. All of these could deal with the threat before the Tyranids even entered the atmosphere. Both the comic-book universes have truly ludicrous abilities on their side.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Who came up with the "millions of hive ships" anway?
Millions is far to huge. Ten thousands maybe - but that would include a shitload of light escorts.
Millions of ships would be FAR to huge - such a fleet would not only outnumber whole segmentum or the whole imperial fleet, but they would also have to deploy quadrillion of troops - if they only carried trillions, you would have less than million troops per large ship.

Either way, it doesn't make sense. Tyranids have many millions or billions of land troops on actual invasions, but only thousands of ships.

I said that one. I thought I remembered one of the Tyranid codexes describing a Hive fleet as millions of ships. I won't be able to check up on that until next week sometime, so I've been keeping silent for now. I'll concede the point unless I can find some evidence of it besides my possibly-faulty memory.

[Batman]

A month later the Tyranids attacked Macragge, and a fleet of bio-ships now numbering well over a thousand vessels swept aside attacks by Ultramarines' strike cruisers defending the outlying worlds as they pushed in-system.
Codex: Tyranids 4th ed

Wether or not that's TYPICAL for a hive fleet, unless the size of the Tyranid fleet at the battle of Macragge has been retconned since then (or Hongi is wrong) no millions of vessels for the 'Nids.

[Ford Prefect]

I said that one. I thought I remembered one of the Tyranid codexes describing a Hive fleet as millions of ships. I won't be able to check up on that until next week sometime, so I've been keeping silent for now. I'll concede the point unless I can find some evidence of it besides my possibly-faulty memory.

You might be thinking of the statement that there are more Hive Ships waiting in the void than there are individual Tyranids operating within the galaxy.

[Black Admiral]

A month later the Tyranids attacked Macragge, and a fleet of bio-ships now numbering well over a thousand vessels swept aside attacks by Ultramarines' strike cruisers defending the outlying worlds as they pushed in-system.
Codex: Tyranids 4th ed

Wether or not that's TYPICAL for a hive fleet, unless the size of the Tyranid fleet at the battle of Macragge has been retconned since then (or Hongi is wrong) no millions of vessels for the 'Nids.

Going from the 2002 Battlefleet Gothic annual, it's correct but seems to refer only to the larger bioships - quoting thereof;

Then, just when all seemed to be lost, the first squadrons of ships from Battle Fleet Bakka began to arrive.

In space, Marneus Calgar watched in rapt attention as reality rippled in front of the shapes emerging from the warp before parting like a curtain to reveal the familiar shapes of Imperial warships. Over two hundred Imperial eagles emblazoned the hologlobe, representing heavy cruisers, missile destroyers, battleships and including a gold eagle representing the huge Emperor-class capital ship Dominus Astra.
- pg. 47

Numbers for BF Bakka, and establishing that there were, in fact, multiple battleships (four Victory-class - Hammer of Scaro, Victory, Argus and Conqueror, as listed on pg. 53 - in addition to the DA) in BF Bakka.

The battle was short and brutal as the Tyranids were caught in the cross-fire of the two fleets. Though they were outnumbered by over three to one the Imperial ships blasted their way through the hive fleet and scattered the bipships into small groups. The Tyranids' piecemeal counter attacks were beaten off by the awesome firepower of the heavily armoured and shielded Imperial ships. Their lances of fusion fire transfixed the organic hulls of the bio-ships and clouds of Imperial Navy fighters darted in to tear apart the crippled vessels. Within an hour the remnants of the hive fleet were dead and drifting, charred hulks spinning slowly through the void.
- pg. 47

The destruction of the first wave of Behemoth; mostly useful for noting that there were at least 600+ bioships in Behemoth's first wave.

Behind the two fleets the very fabric of space rippled before it was suddenly torn aside as another fleet emerged from warp space. The hologlobes were filled with ranks of red sparks as the second Tyranid hive fleet bore down on the ships of the combined Imperial fleet. This hive fleet was fresh and undamaged: hundreds of large bio-ships made up its vanguard, with their smaller companions staying to the sides and rear.
- pg. 47

Behemoth's second wave. There aren't any other notations of numbers, at least that're any use (the descriptions of the battle of Circe mention Battlefleet Bakka's fire "striking down the bioships by tens and then hundreds", and references to Imperial warships being "grappled and overrun or torn apart by the hail of shot from a dozen foes", but that's about it).

[hongi]

Going from the 2002 Battlefleet Gothic annual, it's correct but seems to refer only to the larger bioships - quoting thereof;

There was only a couple hundred (<200?) Imperial ships in Battlefleet Bakka, so any mention of millions of ships in a Hive Fleet must mean that either the Tyranids are absurdly weak compared to the Imperials (what, an Imperial ship would have to take out tens of thousands of ships all on its lonesome?) or 'millions' includes stuff like spores or equivalents of fighters.

[Black Admiral]

Going from the 2002 Battlefleet Gothic annual, it's correct but seems to refer only to the larger bioships - quoting thereof;

There was only a couple hundred (<200?) Imperial ships in Battlefleet Bakka, so any mention of millions of ships in a Hive Fleet must mean that either the Tyranids are absurdly weak compared to the Imperials (what, an Imperial ship would have to take out tens of thousands of ships all on its lonesome?) or 'millions' includes stuff like spores or equivalents of fighters.

I agree there - I was referring more to the count of "~one thousand" bioships for Behemoth, although I should've made that clearer.

[NettiWelho]

I find a bit odd that most people seem to have completely overlooked the obvious on part of the comicbook universes: the nids wont only be fighting the heroes and what scant military presence earth has, but also the villains and more importantly the supervillains who might seriously consider siding with the rest of earth for the duration

[Batman]

Operating phrase being 'the rest of Earth'. Most of the top tier villains at least on the DC side AREN'T from Earth. Mongul, Darkseid, the Sinestro Corps, Brainiac-do they really have an INTEREST in defending Earth?
Several of the BIG name villains have tried to DESTROY Earth in the past. Mr Mxyxptlk might step in so he can keep on getting on Clark's nerves but even that I'm not sure of. Lobo might join if he's sufficiently bored but I wouldn't bet on WHICH side he'll join.
Most of the EARTH based villains are pretty small fry powers-wise (like my own Rogues gallery). Luthor is a schemer, not a powerhouse villain. The most powerful one that comes immediately to mind is Bizarro and that's adding a single Superman level fighter to what the hero side can already muster.

[lordofchange13]

Who came up with the "millions of hive ships" anway?

That'd be whatshisname13. He apparently thinks this is DC Earth vs every Tyranid in existance as opposed to the actual OP scenario.

did i say "hive ships"? im sorry i meant to say ships peroid, there are around a hundred hundred hive ships, millions of carriors, transpots, fighters, captital ships, crusiers,escorts, and wardrones.

[Srelex]

Then how come Tyranid ship numbers at Macragge are always described as in the thousands? As others have said, if it was millions, Battlefleet Bakka woud have done jack shit in the balance of battle.

[lance]

I find a bit odd that most people seem to have completely overlooked the obvious on part of the comicbook universes: the nids wont only be fighting the heroes and what scant military presence earth has, but also the villains and more importantly the supervillains who might seriously consider siding with the rest of earth for the duration

I did bring up Graviton and Molecule man, who from what I know about his power should be able to solo this. Though it seems that I overlooked the system only part of the scenario. Beta Ray Bill, Thor, FF4, Doom and Nova might not be in system.
Which does limit what Deux Ex Machina that can be done.
Does lead to question about access to the Micro and Macro verses and Negative energy zones. Asgard? Do these count as out of system or not?

[Eviscerator]

In support of lord13 : U may not need a billion psionic in concert to destroy all the superman level guys - u just need one for each... like... so...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleez

If breaking down someone to the core is forcing him to have sex with someone else and video against his will... yeah that qualifies.

The number : Action Comics #593
The plot: Superman Porn Actor
Canon status: I have no idea but here it is
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_593 (Shh let's not say anything at all)

and if u need screencaps of The Soops Porn Flick
http://www.cracked.com/article_17626_5- ... omics.html

This is not Darkseid: This is Darkseid's PIMP and he dominated Superman > >