Genetically engineered supertroops and power armor illogical

[DudeGuyMan]

That does fit in with a lot of what's been said. Emphasis on endurance over strength (something that may or may not apply with boxers) has also been suggested.

Definitely applies. If you ever find yourself standing in front of a heavybag, try firing off a punch every two or three seconds and sustain that rate. If you haven't done it before you'll be shocked how tiring it is after only a minute or two, even without any need to move your feet or defend yourself.

So what about tech level? Clan Elementals gained an advantage in their power armour because its stated that they can stand the wear and tear of battle armour deployment better, to the extent that Spheroid infantry couldn't use Elemental armour for extended periods of time.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but if by wear-and-tear you mean something like withstanding the change in momentum from the impact of a jet-assisted jump, wouldn't a smaller man hold up better than a larger one? Size is desirable in an athlete or combatant because it equals reach, strength, and mass, none of which are likely to be terribly relevant in a firefight between power armored soldiers.

Hell if they're engineering these guys to fit in a standard-sized suit, they probably don't want to make them all seven feet tall. That just makes them more expensive to manufacture.

[PainRack]

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but if by wear-and-tear you mean something like withstanding the change in momentum from the impact of a jet-assisted jump, wouldn't a smaller man hold up better than a larger one? Size is desirable in an athlete or combatant because it equals reach, strength, and mass, none of which are likely to be terribly relevant in a firefight between power armored soldiers.

Hell if they're engineering these guys to fit in a standard-sized suit, they probably don't want to make them all seven feet tall. That just makes them more expensive to manufacture.

We aren't told in canon what the actual specifics are, but large, strong people usually have heavier/stronger bones and have a higher endurance with regards to damage.

This gets important especially as Battletech power armour don't have inertial dampers or the like, thus prolonged movement in power armour subjects the wearer to prolonged impact and hurt.

[Sarevok]

But Painrack that would mean Aerospace pilots are ideal for powered armor. Since BTech dont have Intetial Dampners Clan ASF pilots natural G-Force tolerance would make them more resistant to huge falls, heavy weapons and being manhandled by a battlemech.

[Purple]

You all are talking about G force tolerance but I think you are missing one important thing.
Armor, any armor will not just magically absorb impacts (unless it's extremely ablative). Instead a large part of the energy will still be transmitted to the wearer. Just like with modern kelvar armor or medieval knights. The armor might break the energy apart or otherwise dilute it over a wider surface and do other stuff to make it non lethal but the energy still has to go into the users body eventually. And a stronger, tougher person will withstand this better than a short and skinny one.

Also, the armor is not a vehicle. It does not have the pilot siting in a chair. His arms and legs tend to be inside the arms and legs of the machine. Hence they move when the machine does. Even if weary little energy actually comes from the user, this is still going to be tiring since his arms and legs are being moved around. Hence fatigue.

So an aircraft pilot might be suited for a mecha, but not for powered armor. After all, not many armors are going to subject you to a lot of G's. But they are going to subject your body to a lot of impact energy from enemy projectiles.

[Sarevok]

Then just give the pilot hard skin and bones. He does not need Arnold Schwarzenegger like muscles to go with it.

[Purple]

I guess it is simpler to make a strong pilot that is like a strongman than to engineer him with super bones.
Also, the pilot needs to be capable of walking around normally and interacting normally with other humans (or at least others like him) outside of combat. Imagine someone with heavy super hard bones and skin but the muscles of an average man.

There is also the factor that you want a soldier that is as capable as possible outside of his armor but still in combat. If things go wrong he should be capable of either fighting with diminished capability and still in armor or to remove the armor him self, under fire and keep on fighting.

[Sarevok]

I guess it is simpler to make a strong pilot that is like a strongman than to engineer him with super bones.
Also, the pilot needs to be capable of walking around normally and interacting normally with other humans (or at least others like him) outside of combat. Imagine someone with heavy super hard bones and skin but the muscles of an average man.

On the other hand making an effective suit of armor for a huge body builder would be tremendously hard. A power armor is just a robot with human as the driving intelligence. The big guy would eat up so much of the effective space inside the armor would be weaker than one worn by a smaller person.

There is also the factor that you want a soldier that is as capable as possible outside of his armor but still in combat. If things go wrong he should be capable of either fighting with diminished capability and still in armor or to remove the armor him self, under fire and keep on fighting.

That seems pretty dumb. You cant biologically match a powered armor. If you can do that then you wont need one.

[Purple]

On the other hand making an effective suit of armor for a huge body builder would be tremendously hard. A power armor is just a robot with human as the driving intelligence. The big guy would eat up so much of the effective space inside the armor would be weaker than one worn by a smaller person.

On the other hand, the body builder would not be just a glorified pilot but real infantry. You are making a mistake in treating PA like you would a vehicle. It is not, and it does not serve in the capacity of one.

There may be situations where said pilot must act outside of his armor. Like when patrolling civilian areas, you might want a strong, muscular person with a human face rather than a faceless masked robot look alike. Or under conditions of fuel/battery shortages, EMP attacks etc.

Keep in mind that at the end of the day Power Armor units are not used like vehicles for heavy support but as base line infantry.
So they have to be capable of performing all the duties of basic infantry even without the armor if need be.

That seems pretty dumb. You cant biologically match a powered armor. If you can do that then you wont need one.

Not at all, think of it this way. The power armor might carry extra mass but it also has electronics and allows you to carry heavier weapons. The best solution for it would be to have at least some contingency in case of damage to the servo mechanisms.

I mean, it's rather idiotic from a design standpoint to make something like powered armor and than design it so that if it fails the user can nether remove it nor somehow make use of it. Sure he might have to hunker down and use that heavy assault rifle he just dual wielded as a heavy machine gun on a tripod instead. But it sure beats being a frozen stiff target.

It would be as if you designed tanks with no escape hatches so that if the tracks break down the crew is stuck inside. There are reasons why we don't do that after all.

[DudeGuyMan]

If your armor is injuring soldiers because it can't adequately cushion or distribute the force of it's own movements, then your armor sucks. Besides, if we're talking about the "I just jumped fifteen feet in the air and landing is going to hurt" type of impact, I'd rather be a tiny gymnast than a massive NFL player. Another hundred pounds of meat in the suit is another hundred pounds hitting the floor when it takes a spill, plus a bunch more weight since the suit needs to be larger in the first place.

If we're talking about impacts like enemy fire and such, well fuck, who cares that the big guy will weather injury slightly better if whatever he's being hit with just so happens to neither bounce off nor blow his guts out? I'd much rather be the little guy, who can react more quickly and (most importantly) makes a smaller target.

It's a firefight. Being a smaller target > almost everything.

Or to be a TOTAL NERD about it, your 10% bonus HP for being huge doesn't mean a lot when everyone is firing weapons that will do 10d1000 damage if they overcome your AC.

[PainRack]

But Painrack that would mean Aerospace pilots are ideal for powered armor. Since BTech dont have Intetial Dampners Clan ASF pilots natural G-Force tolerance would make them more resistant to huge falls, heavy weapons and being manhandled by a battlemech.

I'm not talking about G force tolerance. I'm talking about brute force impact.
Strength is still determined by surface area, so to get the larger bones and muscles/endurance to wear Power armour for long period, you're going to need bigger humans. Well, wider humans at any rate:D

Jumping up and down is going to be bruising for any normal human being after a while

[Simon_Jester]

The problem is that big things made out of meat aren't always more impact-resistant than small ones; it depends on the impact. If a man and an elephant get kicked by the same martial artist the man will be hurt more, but if a man and an elephant fall off the same cliff, the man will suffer much less damage.

And, again, there's the whole "target profile" aspect to the problem.

What you really need in that situation isn't to genetically engineer flipping huge guys to put in your armor. You need to engineer stronger tissue: more impact resistant bone, muscles that are harder to tear, and so on. You need to upgrade the meat, not just pile on more of it.

[jollyreaper]

Good discussion!

[Purple]

What you really need in that situation isn't to genetically engineer flipping huge guys to put in your armor. You need to engineer stronger tissue: more impact resistant bone, muscles that are harder to tear, and so on. You need to upgrade the meat, not just pile on more of it.

That requires a much higher understanding of genetic engineering than simply making a man that uses Uber SteroirdTM.

Another thing to consider is that even with greater strength/durability per unit of volume, more volume means you can stuff more things inside it. If you look at 40K for example, that is exactly what they did. They engineered stronger bones, muscles and everything they could. But in the end, it was not enough so they made the men super large as well. So now you have guys that can, without the aid of powered armor lift tanks and such. And with power armor they can mele demons and orks.


Also, I don't understand all the talk about G-force resistance. The men are supposed to be infantry, not pilots. Last time I checked, G-forces do not play a part in ground battles.

[Broomstick]

It was used as an illustration that bigger isn't always better for a purpose.

[Purple]

I know, but it was used for a purpose that has no connection to a topic. And it got out of control.

It would be the same like me demonstrating that bigger is better by claiming bigger troops can outlast their enemy if both sides decide to stop fighting and stage an eating contest.

[Simon_Jester]

What you really need in that situation isn't to genetically engineer flipping huge guys to put in your armor. You need to engineer stronger tissue: more impact resistant bone, muscles that are harder to tear, and so on. You need to upgrade the meat, not just pile on more of it.

That requires a much higher understanding of genetic engineering than simply making a man that uses Uber SteroirdTM.

Yes. But since it will help, while giving the men Uber Steroirds [sic] will not, you're kind of stuck. Making men bigger and beefier will not increase their resistance to injury fast enough to offset the added costs: making them bigger targets and making the armor itself physically larger.

If you have the option of adding an extra fifty kilos of mass to a power suit, you are far better off adding more armor protection, or more ammunition, or longer-lasting batteries for power, than you are adding fifty kilos of muscle to the guy wearing the suit.

The really worthwhile things the Space Marines in 40k (who arguably originated this whole idea of power armor supersoldiers) get from their enhancements are augmented senses, endurance, ability to go without sleep for long periods, quick healing, things like that. Their sheer physical muscle really doesn't have very much to do with their combat effectiveness; what's decisive is that they're long-lived and very dedicated, and that their augmentations let them handle a very intense training regimen.

The fact that they can juggle anvils or whatever is irrelevant compared to the fact that they live long enough to accumulate decades of combat experience, put in sixteen-hour days training, and so on.