Is anyone excited about Space Marine?

[Havok]

Took me a minute with that stupid launcher too, but then it was kinda fun. At first I was like "Is this so I can find my way back?"

As for ZIXINUS: You quoting a stupid idea from someone else doesn't make it any less stupid. If the developers don't realize that cover is not only a wanted system in games, but it is considered a flaw to not have it, then they are stupid. If you quote, agree with and pass along that thought as your own, guess what that makes you?

As Stark said, I am not a "gamer". I play like 3, maybe 4 games a year, not including the odd demo here and there, and I realize that cover should be a part of any game that invovles shooting.

[Lord Relvenous]

Hokay, figured out the Vengeance Launcher. The reload button is the detonation switch, tap to detonate grenades individually and hold to blow them all at once. Surprisingly effective once you get the knack of it.

Yeah, shooting into a group of 3-4 Orks and detonating it mid-flight became a favorite way of dispatching small groups at range. It really is a fun weapon, actually, as you can plan out the detonation sequence or fire it like a traditional grenade launcher and just manually detonate it on impact.

[Stark]

Haha, I never figured it out, so the mines often detonated when I executed the guy they were attached to, killing me. :v

[Mr. Coffee]

As Stark said, I am not a "gamer". I play like 3, maybe 4 games a year, not including the odd demo here and there, and I realize that cover should be a part of any game that invovles shooting.

Why can't you just enjoy enjoy hitting green things with a big honking beat-stick, Hav? Why do you hate the Emperor so much? Do you want the filthy xenos to win?

[Kojiro]

Uh... fucking hello, I know Space Marines are supposed to be the baddest thing in the fucking universe, but I'm pretty sure they would take cover. What the fuck game developers, it is 2011. Cover System or your game is automatically garbage.

In fairness they're staying true to the board game there. Marines don't take cover versus anything that isn't a heavy weapon- there simply isn't any point (due to the way cover works in Simplehammer 40K).

I agree they should take cover, just pointing out them being true to the (stupid) source.

[Agent Sorchus]

I'm kinda impressed at how well this game is optimized. My pc is far from great, and it still runs decently at 1280-780. As for the game, it's a solid meh for me. It is nice and solid, but not exactly my cup of tea. (And I need to upgrade my PC for me to want to play this.)

When it drops even a little it'll be far more tempting.

[Zixinus]

If the developers don't realize that cover is not only a wanted system in games, but it is considered a flaw to not have it, then they are stupid.

In your opinion anyway. It did not diminish the game for me.

If you quote, agree with and pass along that thought as your own, guess what that makes you?

Someone who already was one the same opinion as the developer?
Not that I expect that answer to change your opinion, but whatever.

As Stark said, I am not a "gamer". I play like 3, maybe 4 games a year, not including the odd demo here and there, and I realize that cover should be a part of any game that invovles shooting.

Well then, I'm sorry that the developers stuck to their own vision of the game rather than mindlessly ape another one.

Also, just because "you're not a gamer" doesn't make your opinion any more opinion any more authoritative then mine.

[Block]

I don't particularly want cover in a game bout Space Marines either. Sure, when there's heavy weapons like krak missiles flying or something, but other than that, it makes no sense thematically, and to put it in would make it a step closer to generic shooter #550.

[PeZook]

So...the DoW1 intro made no sense, thematically?

[White Haven]

The Dawn of War intro was a very pretty dose of Concentrated Stupid in a can.

[Covenant]

Personally, I hate cover systems, so this was a welcome reprieve from that. Blah blah chest high walls blah, but to not have to push a button to enter cover and spend all my time walking from barricade to barricade? Fantastic!

I know some people really like cover systems, but I think it's fine to do cover without having it be a mechanical button click. I can take cover by pressing my 20 foot tall armored self behind a row of boxes. I did this quite a few times to keep the Orks from dinking me with Rokkits (which, on Hard, are surprisingly lethal!) and it works fine. I don't see what a cover system would add except letting me Velcro myself to a wall and then stick my head around. That's fine for a Metal Gear game, but I really don't need the help, I can weave between cover just fine. Plus, I think it would be overkill. Space Marines do use cover, but the guys we've seen so far are not worth the effort. A bunch of Boyz are just trash mobs, so walk in there and cut them up, or stand back and gun them down.

You're going to have a hard time finding cover that's as durable as the armor you're wearing anyway. For tactical mobility you have the infinite endurance of a Space Marine to let you waddlestomp at high speeds (ie, running) between bits of cover and you can also do a roll if you're worried about exposing yourself to enemy fire. I haven't seen many situations where I really would have benefited much from cover. Your melee attacks have combos that work with stuns, so you can do a bare stun, or one hit stun (kick) or hit, hit, hit, stun (AoE stomp that stuns in a radius) so it's easier and arguably a lot more active and fun to be in melee anyway.

Sure, you can play the game as a shooter exclusively, but it's so easy that I don't think it needs cover on top of the interesting ranged weapon choices. Orks have big fucking heads, so I can just sweep the room with my Bolter rifle and drop 10 schmucks at once. It also kicks up nice big red splashes when I do that, so I was happy. Melee is also very similar to Dynasty Warriors so I was very easily handling mobs of Orks by swinging one way, pivoting around to swing behind, then pivoting again to swing back the first way, just keeping soldiers off me constantly and then when they get spread out, executing one. Seemed entirely intuitive once I figured out how to do the execute effectively.

The nobs are interesting. The first guy I took out by backpedalling while firing the bolter at his head, and he couldn't take too much before he finally flopped over. Felt dangerous but not Boss-like, which is appropriate. The next ones I took out with the Fury system, and then you only need a few chainsword/poweraxe swings to put them down, which is convenient. I could have probably done without the Fury system being so overpowered, but nobody forces me to do it so it's not a real complaint.

Overall, I enjoyed the demo and felt like some kind of armored god of death, which is appropriate. The nob bashed my head in once, which was surprising, but the game feels arcadey and fun. And again, I enjoy the chance not to rely on a cover system.

[Feil]

The presence or absence of a (well-implemented) cover system is irrelevant to me. If there had been one, I would have used it, briefly, a handful of times - those same times that I took cover Quake style. I don't think it would have been thematically inappropriate. That said, the use for it was so rare, and the actual benefit so small, that I don't think the game loses anything by not having it.

I am glad there isn't a poorly-implemented, or even average cover system - sprint and enter cover being the same button, sticky cover that is hard to get out of in a hurry, enter cover and vault cover being the same button... all of these are features of the AAA cover-based shooters that I've played (Gears 1, ME1&2), and they would be nightmares in a game like Space Marine, where you're moving from mob to mob, never pinned down, rather than moving from cover to cover, frequently pinned down. That is what I meant in my earlier post, when I mentioned a cover system just getting in the way. I've never played a cover-based shooter that doesn't have these characteristics. If Gears 2 or some other games fixed this, please tell me - they might be worth a look sometime, if I get the chance.

One thing that does bother me, which I'm surprised nobody seems to be bringing up, is the apparent absence of any way to get over obstacles higher than your shins without a jetpack. This isn't a problem for me in singleplayer, but I expect it to be annoying in multiplayer. A GoW-style vault-over-chest-high-wall ability would be preferable to a jump, since you're a half-tonne walking tank, but almost anything is better than not being able to get somewhere in a game that you intuitively think you could get to, by looking at it. I hope this is something that's going to be part of the release build, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Ghanj Rho]

*snip*
One thing that does bother me, which I'm surprised nobody seems to be bringing up, is the apparent absence of any way to get over obstacles higher than your shins without a jetpack. This isn't a problem for me in singleplayer, but I expect it to be annoying in multiplayer. A GoW-style vault-over-chest-high-wall ability would be preferable to a jump, since you're a half-tonne walking tank, but almost anything is better than not being able to get somewhere in a game that you intuitively think you could get to, by looking at it. I hope this is something that's going to be part of the release build, but I'm not holding my breath.

I understand what you mean (it threw me off a little too), but in this case I'm going to just say "trust the level designers". With only a limited number of maps, I would hope that they've been play tested to the hilt.

For what it's worth, I deeply enjoyed the demo. I've had a preorder in since February, and it's nice to know that I made the right choice.

[Stark]

The Dawn of War intro was a very pretty dose of Concentrated Stupid in a can.

The part where they were in cover wasn't the problem though, was it?

[Havok]

Personally, I hate cover systems....

...but I think it's fine to do cover without having it be a mechanical button click. I can take cover by pressing my 20 foot tall armored self behind a row of boxes. I did this quite a few times to keep the Orks from dinking me with Rokkits (which, on Hard, are surprisingly lethal!) and it works fine. I don't see what a cover system would add except letting me Velcro myself to a wall and then stick my head around. That's fine for a Metal Gear game, but I really don't need the help, I can weave between cover just fine. Plus, I think it would be overkill. Space Marines do use cover, but the guys we've seen so far are not worth the effort. A bunch of Boyz are just trash mobs, so walk in there and cut them up, or stand back and gun them down.

I enjoy the chance not to rely on a cover system.

Uh huh... so you hate it, think it is useless, yet use it anyway, just YOUR OWN way. But you are glad there is no cover system to rely on, even though you relied on cover in just two levels of a demo.



You guys are so full of shit.

[Havok]

The presence or absence of a (well-implemented) cover system is irrelevant to me. If there had been one, I would have used it, briefly, a handful of times - those same times that I took cover Quake style. I don't think it would have been thematically inappropriate. That said, the use for it was so rare, and the actual benefit so small, that I don't think the game loses anything by not having it.

I am glad there isn't a poorly-implemented, or even average cover system - sprint and enter cover being the same button, sticky cover that is hard to get out of in a hurry, enter cover and vault cover being the same button... all of these are features of the AAA cover-based shooters that I've played (Gears 1, ME1&2), and they would be nightmares in a game like Space Marine, where you're moving from mob to mob, never pinned down, rather than moving from cover to cover, frequently pinned down. That is what I meant in my earlier post, when I mentioned a cover system just getting in the way. I've never played a cover-based shooter that doesn't have these characteristics. If Gears 2 or some other games fixed this, please tell me - they might be worth a look sometime, if I get the chance.

So, as Covenant and now your posts indicate, it's not about a cover system, it is about one that works to your liking.
I can only comment that Gears 2 is better than ME1 & 2 if memory serves, but no other games.

One thing that does bother me, which I'm surprised nobody seems to be bringing up, is the apparent absence of any way to get over obstacles higher than your shins without a jetpack. This isn't a problem for me in singleplayer, but I expect it to be annoying in multiplayer. A GoW-style vault-over-chest-high-wall ability would be preferable to a jump, since you're a half-tonne walking tank, but almost anything is better than not being able to get somewhere in a game that you intuitively think you could get to, by looking at it. I hope this is something that's going to be part of the release build, but I'm not holding my breath.

Yeah, I already said this. It's 2011. It was part of my little rant about not taking the best of what was available and implementing it because... well I have no idea. It's not like the whole game isn't already built on the shoulders of others already.

[PeZook]

The Dawn of War intro was a very pretty dose of Concentrated Stupid in a can.

And when did the Stupid begin?

When they left cover to charge up a hill for no reason, that's when. Besides, block was talking about it making sense "thematically". Funny that only complaints I've ever seen about space marines taking cover started to surface when it became important to justify the lack of it in Space Marine, but never with regards to any of the Dawn Of Wars where the game encouraged you to hunker down your supersoldier infantry

[Lord Relvenous]

Personally, I hate cover systems....

...but I think it's fine to do cover without having it be a mechanical button click. I can take cover by pressing my 20 foot tall armored self behind a row of boxes. I did this quite a few times to keep the Orks from dinking me with Rokkits (which, on Hard, are surprisingly lethal!) and it works fine. I don't see what a cover system would add except letting me Velcro myself to a wall and then stick my head around. That's fine for a Metal Gear game, but I really don't need the help, I can weave between cover just fine. Plus, I think it would be overkill. Space Marines do use cover, but the guys we've seen so far are not worth the effort. A bunch of Boyz are just trash mobs, so walk in there and cut them up, or stand back and gun them down.

I enjoy the chance not to rely on a cover system.

Uh huh... so you hate it, think it is useless, yet use it anyway, just YOUR OWN way. But you are glad there is no cover system to rely on, even though you relied on cover in just two levels of a demo.



You guys are so full of shit.

There's a difference between cover and a cover system involving sticky cover. I really doubt I would actually use sticky cover more than twice a level. Developer time isn't limitless. I'd rather they work on something I will be using consistently than something that won't see much use at all.

[Rogue 9]

I'm just surprised the protagonists aren't BLUD REHVANS! Downloading the demo now, just to see.

[White Haven]

Actually, the Concentrated Stupid began when a squad of space marines and a Predator tank were cowering in cover from a non-enormous gang of boyz. These are space marines with armor support, not a group of Guardsmen. The stupid then continued with two apparent mortar shells (Mortars? From orks? Oookay...) insta-shanking a Predator. The charge uphill was just icing on the cake.

EDIT: Oops, wait, I forgot the dreadnought that nobody bothered to give any cover so that an ork lugging a huge detpack was able to run across the entire battlefield alone and unmolested. Really, a squad of marines, a Predator, and a dreadnought. They more or less had to act like complete tools for a relatively small gang of orks to pose any real threat.

EDIT^2: 'A squad of marines, a Predator, and a dreadnought walk into a bar...

[Simon_Jester]

I'm just wondering, when we talk about a cover system, or when Havok talks about the lack of cover, in this game...

Do you guys mean that in Space Marine your guy can't hide behind large objects to avoid being shot (no taking cover)? Or do you mean that there's no specialized set of button commands for interacting with cover (press the O button to put your back against the wall while bullets whiz by on either side)?

Because you can have pretty good use of cover without having special button commands for 'take cover.' As long as you can crouch (can you do that?) or go prone to take full advantage of what's available, you don't really need much else for cover to become an important part of the game.

[Lord Relvenous]

I'm just wondering, when we talk about a cover system, or when Havok talks about the lack of cover, in this game...

Do you guys mean that in Space Marine your guy can't hide behind large objects to avoid being shot (no taking cover)? Or do you mean that there's no specialized set of button commands for interacting with cover (press the O button to put your back against the wall while bullets whiz by on either side)?

Because you can have pretty good use of cover without having special button commands for 'take cover.' As long as you can crouch (can you do that?) or go prone to take full advantage of what's available, you don't really need much else for cover to become an important part of the game.

Going prone would be suicide for the most part in Space Marine. Of course you can hide behind things. We are talking about the lack of a cover system.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

(Mortars? From orks? Oookay...)

Oi, dis 'ere is me lobba. It's real cunnin', see: put da explodey bit in 'ere, den it lobs it real far. And I kustomized it to make extra noize!

[PeZook]

Actually, the Concentrated Stupid began when a squad of space marines and a Predator tank were cowering in cover from a non-enormous gang of boyz. These are space marines with armor support, not a group of Guardsmen. The stupid then continued with two apparent mortar shells (Mortars? From orks? Oookay...) insta-shanking a Predator. The charge uphill was just icing on the cake.

Okay, now you just sound like a 40K fanboy. In what school of tactics is not using cover when available a good idea? What else were the marines supposed to do? Stand around in the open trading fire with the orks? Yeah, great way to get a rokkit up your ass. Charge into hand to hand? Awesome, let's concede our firepower advantage and play to the enemy's preferred way of combat (and oh wait, they did that and got slaughtered).

Them using cover was the only smart thing they did in that movie, and it's only thematically incorrect if you think the Space Marines are of the "fucking idiot" theme.

[Simon_Jester]

Going prone would be suicide for the most part in Space Marine. Of course you can hide behind things. We are talking about the lack of a cover system.

And "cover system..." what, exactly, does that mean? Does a game not have a cover system because there are no special buttons for interacting with cover? Why are such systems necessary? Can't a game encourage the player to make intelligent use of cover (such as kneeling behind barricades, or taking advantage of corners in close quarters fighting) without the need for a special "this button is for taking cover" button?

Look at the Call of Duty games, or at least the older ones, if you want to see how this can work- it's not hard.

(Mortars? From orks? Oookay...)

Oi, dis 'ere is me lobba. It's real cunnin', see: put da explodey bit in 'ere, den it lobs it real far. And I kustomized it to make extra noize!

This is true. Mortars are one of the options for crew-served artillery (manned by gretchin) for the ork army list.

Actually, the Concentrated Stupid began when a squad of space marines and a Predator tank were cowering in cover from a non-enormous gang of boyz. These are space marines with armor support, not a group of Guardsmen. The stupid then continued with two apparent mortar shells (Mortars? From orks? Oookay...) insta-shanking a Predator. The charge uphill was just icing on the cake.

Okay, now you just sound like a 40K fanboy. In what school of tactics is not using cover when available a good idea? What else were the marines supposed to do? Stand around in the open trading fire with the orks? Yeah, great way to get a rokkit up your ass. Charge into hand to hand? Awesome, let's concede our firepower advantage and play to the enemy's preferred way of combat (and oh wait, they did that and got slaughtered).

Infantry combat is always a dilemma.

Stay pinned down long enough and you become a target for enemy artillery if they've got any, which these orks did. Get out in the open and you're exposed. Usually, staying in cover is a lot better.

The calculations for Space Marines are a little different because of their armor. A pile of dirt may not actually have more stopping power than their own armor, to the point where any weapon that they need to take cover from is one that can blow the cover to bits, making it at best temporary concealment against antitank weapons, rather than "cover" in the sense the term is used in traditional infantry combat.

It's not hard to imagine a case where Marines might actually be better leaping out of their entrenchment now and charging the enemy force that's firing on them with small arms, rather than sitting in the entrenchment to hide from small arms (which they're immune to) until someone calls up antitank support and artillery strikes (which they're not immune to).