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I like the little 1984 bit that he read at the beginning, showing the inspiration Chain of Command had.

I remember watching this as a kid, and it'd never occurred to me before that the Cardassian hitting the pain button was a win for Picard, because he'd lost control of the situation and hitting the button was the only way to get it back. Actually, I remember thinking Picard was being pretty dumb in continually provoking his captor. Funny how things change with a more adult perspective.

It depends on how you define a 'win' I suppose. Personally I'd prefer the other guy thinking he has the upper hand over being in incruciating agony.

Batman wrote:It depends on how you define a 'win' I suppose. Personally I'd prefer the other guy thinking he has the upper hand over being in incruciating agony.

That's easier said than done. I'm sure Picard would also prefer "The Cardassian is losing ground but doesn't know it" (doesn't get tortured) to "The Cardassian is losing ground but knows it" (gets tortured), but either is better than "The Cardassian is gaining ground".

Um-no, it's not. Given that there's jack all the Cardassians gain by Picard giving in, and at the time Picard didn't know he would be saved eventually, all he could hope to achieve was to annoy his torturer. Call me silly but I don't think a few moments of 'Ha-ha I got you' are worth the pain.

Batman wrote:If I'd have to venture a guess I'd say the reason Jellico is so not hated (because I don't think it ever amounted to him actually being 'loved') is because he is the, at the time, first Starfleet officer who actually behaves like he thinks he's serving in a military, and so are his (for the time being) subordinates. It's not so much that Jellico is a nice guy-which he isn't-it's that he finally showed that yes, Picard's ravings notwithstanding, Starfleet IS the UFP's instrument for waging war if and when that should become necessary.

And I'm sorry, but Troi does look massively better in uniform than she did in the abominations she wore before.

She really does. As does Seven of Nine, in the rare instances she puts one on.

Batman wrote:It depends on how you define a 'win' I suppose. Personally I'd prefer the other guy thinking he has the upper hand over being in incruciating agony.

You're the goddamn Batman, shouldn't excruciating agony be a sign that it's wednesday?

Batman wrote:Um-no, it's not. Given that there's jack all the Cardassians gain by Picard giving in, and at the time Picard didn't know he would be saved eventually, all he could hope to achieve was to annoy his torturer. Call me silly but I don't think a few moments of 'Ha-ha I got you' are worth the pain.

I don't think Picard knows the Cardassians have nothing to gain. Oh sure, his codes will get changed, but they're more likely to be after strategic information, Starfleet doctrine number of ships within response distance that sort of thing. The Cadrassian also claims once that he'll torture Crusher (Picard doesn't know for sure the other two got out) so he may think that as long as he plays for time she isn't going through this.

Ahriman238 wrote:

Batman wrote:It depends on how you define a 'win' I suppose. Personally I'd prefer the other guy thinking he has the upper hand over being in incruciating agony.

You're the goddamn Batman, shouldn't excruciating agony be a sign that it's wednesday?

No, wednesday means the chess game with Harvey. Excrutiating agony is a sign somebody managed to mindcontrol the Kryptonian again.
Or that Master Bruce tried some of his own cooking.

Batman wrote:Um-no, it's not. Given that there's jack all the Cardassians gain by Picard giving in, and at the time Picard didn't know he would be saved eventually, all he could hope to achieve was to annoy his torturer. Call me silly but I don't think a few moments of 'Ha-ha I got you' are worth the pain.

I don't think Picard knows the Cardassians have nothing to gain. Oh sure, his codes will get changed, but they're more likely to be after strategic information, Starfleet doctrine number of ships within response distance that sort of thing.

Nothing of which they gain by Picard simply agreeing there are 5 lights, and a pink elephant too, if you want. The point where Gul Madred actually asks for information is already past, it's all about the lights by now.

The Cadrassian also claims once that he'll torture Crusher (Picard doesn't know for sure the other two got out) so he may think that as long as he plays for time she isn't going through this.

But that's just it-he's not doing that. Picard agreeing there's 5 lights-and a burning giraffe, if you want-and then trying to weasel his way around giving out any useful information would likely buy just as much time if not more as getting on Madred's nerve and making him use the pain thingy.

Isn't letting Bruce Wayne into the kitchen a violation of the Geneva Convention?


On a Serious note, Chain of Command was just plain awesome. There was no better person they could have cast as the Cardassian Interrogator. David Warner is just so much win if you let him do something worthwhile. Seeing him in roles like this makes you see just how wasted he was in Star Trek V and one more reason that movie sucks.

As far as Jellico goes even with the supposed set up that we aren't suppose to like him the fans loved the guy. The reasons are quite simple and since Chuck already covered them I won't go into them. However I do agree with his point about putting Troi in an actual uniform.

Now you're making me think of a rewritten Star Trek V centering around the character of Saint John Talbot and at its core a story of three ambassadors striving to make something of their lives when each of their governments has thrown them away.

EDIT: spelling error

Faces up.

No, I can't believe you're using the word 'subtlety' in relation to carving off someone's face and wearing it either. In continuing with the Chain of Command discussion, it is nice to see everyone behaving sort of vaguely like a military or even exploratory outfit. Being prepared, having plans, etc.

To me, the concept of the Vidiians was always interesting, but the execution suffered all throughout VOY. I still think the best Vidiian episode is "Lifesigns".

FaxModem1 wrote:Now you're making me think of a rewritten Star Trek V

please do!

Angel One is up. Otherwise known as the planet ruled by women, or the second strongest case for Trek being neither feminist nor progressive.

Yet somehow, not as bad as Code of Honor.

Anyone feel its terribly ironic for him to be rallying against sexism and everything while continually using a refrain of 'riker isn't a man/has no dick' jokes?

Crazedwraith wrote:Anyone feel its terribly ironic for him to be rallying against sexism and everything while continually using a refrain of 'riker isn't a man/has no dick' jokes?

A little, yes. Though Riker's behavior in this episode was hardly exemplary.

Tattoo redone up.

I can really see how Chakotay is an inspiration to Indians everywhere. Remember how clever he was when... Or how brave that time... Okay, I've got nothing.

Evolution up. Wherein Wesley accidently creates sentient, nanite-based life that nearly kills the crew and learns valuable life lessons talking to his future self about baseball. Ok, so Stubbs isn't actually Wesley from the future (with Trek, it's necessary to say that) just... Wesley as a middle-aged man.

Ahriman238 wrote:Tattoo redone up.

I can really see how Chakotay is an inspiration to Indians everywhere. Remember how clever he was when... Or how brave that time... Okay, I've got nothing.

For me, Chakotay's lack of character development is one of great tragedies of VOY. He had the potential to be like Kira, a spiritual person and albeit someone who had been Starfleet and still understood where Janeway was coming from. But the writers quickly made him a Janeway yes-man and Seven ultimate appropriated his role as the sounding board.

Sacred Ground re-up.

In which Kes wanders onto sacred ground and is smote by the 'gods' and Janeway, failed by science, has to take a leap of faith in trusting the people that did this when they tell her how to fix it. I'm not being sarcastic, that's a completely straight explanation of the storyline. Hell, it's probably the most flattering possible way of saying what happened, to all parties.

Ahriman238 wrote:In which Kes wanders onto sacred ground and is smote by the 'gods' and Janeway, failed by science, has to take a leap of faith in trusting the people that did this when they tell her how to fix it. I'm not being sarcastic, that's a completely straight explanation of the storyline. Hell, it's probably the most flattering possible way of saying what happened, to all parties.

You forgot the part where honesty is bad, and admitting you're here to try to save the four year old that got smote means they'll just feed you a line of bullshit.

I don't agree with Chuck's bit about science and religion (Science and metaphysics are not the same. Religion wants to be science, but fails), but I can see why he'd want to not go hitting that hornet's nest.

Year of Hell getting re-upped in 3 parts.

Part 1, [url=http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/v876a.asp}Part 2.[/url] Part 3 on the 15th.

I'd previously heard that Year of Hell was originally going to be a season long arc. I kind of wish they'd done so, minus the reset button, I'd have tuned in more for that.

Man, aside from the Borg and the Kremin, were there any worthwhile villains on Voyager?

year of hell is new. not re-upped. like Chains Of Command. He's doing a two-parter in one week.

Huh, I could've sworn I've seen him review it before.

Oh well, Part 3 up.

And Thoughts

While I can see where Chuck's coming from regarding Family, I still disagree with him - the fact that the episode is atypical of Star Trek doesn't mean that it's so outside the box that it can't be rated relative to the other episodes of TNG. Indeed, its atypicality would be either increase or decrease its final score depending on how successful the concept was.

Also, while I can see why he chose All Good Things... as his example of a well-done reset button, I'm a bit surprised that he didn't also look at a successful example far closer to the version we got. Yesterday's Enterprise.