Anyways, the Naboo Crisis had happened about 10 years before the galactic wide war and it was just a small galactic skirmish in comparison to the Clone Wars.
No it wasn't it was a completely planetary skirmish that nevertheless affected millions of people. Are you sure you know what galactic actually means?
I don't see the relation between the two of them.
That'd be the part where even before it became a Galactic level event your no consequences war did affect millions of people?
The CIS had just simply wanted to secede from a corrupt old galactic Republic.
Which resulted in-a Civil War affecting tens of thousands of systems? Whatever happened to the minor conflict with no real consequences?
And the Jedi had started a galactic wide war just to rescue a few of their friends on Genosis. Just like WW1, another very evil and unjust war.
Wrong on both counts. The Separatists could easily have prevented a war by simply turning Anakin and Padme over to the Republic legal system and demand they be tried for their crimes.
You had called me a f***face. ISN'T THE FLAMING?
What? How am I wrong on both counts? What? You think that the death of one man (the archduke franz ferdinand), is worth the death of millions in retaliation for that?
Those thousands of star systems didn't want the republic's corruption and high taxes.
I highly doubt that billions of galactic civilians were killed by the Separatist droid armies during the Clone Wars.
Spiderman Fanboy wrote:I highly doubt that billions of galactic civilians were killed by the Separatist droid armies during the Clone Wars.
So, who do you think was on those planets that the Revenge of the Sith novelization says Grevious razed?
Those thousands of star systems didn't want the republic's corruption and high taxes.
You mean the Republic that the Sith had been secretly undermining for centuries?
So, the Clone Wars did affect innocent galactic civilians, and not just the robots and the clones? Because watching Mike Stolkassa's SW prequels reviews give me that impression a lot.
The movies don't get into every detail about the war. Please, tell me more about the EU Clone Wars/Seperatist atrocities against the civilians.
Besides, I think that billions of civilian deaths does seem to be like an exaggeration to me. Billions?
Spiderman Fanboy wrote:Besides, I think that billions of civilian deaths does seem to be like an exaggeration to me. Billions?
I admit I don't know where that number comes from (and two minutes of Googling didn't turn it up) and I'm not that up on the Clone Wars era EU, but when you have a galactic civil war and one side's military leader is a guy known for razing planets and bombing civilian populations it's not much of a stretch.
Spiderman Fanboy wrote:Besides, I think that billions of civilian deaths does seem to be like an exaggeration to me. Billions?
I admit I don't know where that number comes from (and two minutes of Googling didn't turn it up) and I'm not that up on the Clone Wars era EU, but when you have a galactic civil war and one side's military leader is a guy known for razing planets and bombing civilian populations it's not much of a stretch.
Please list some examples of how the Seperatists had killed/bombed/razed civilians. Just a list of some EU evidence to support that. I also want to discuss more other sub-topics about the morality of the good guys and the bad guys on this thread!
You had called me a f***face. ISN'T THE FLAMING?[/quote]
1. It's you 'have' called me a fuckface (and really, a simple 'called' would have done). And no, I don't think that counts as flaming.
What? How am I wrong on both counts? What? You think that the death of one man (the archduke franz ferdinand), is worth the death of millions in retaliation for that?
No, you're wrong in assuming that WW1 wouldn't have happened anyway.
Those thousands of star systems didn't want the republic's corruption and high taxes.
Which changes the fact that they were affected by your 'no consequences' war-how, exactly?
I highly doubt that billions of galactic civilians were killed by the Separatist droid armies during the Clone Wars.
Episode III and the Clone Wars series (as well as the print EU) say you're wrong.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
And, besides, Sidious was evil for starting the Clone Wars, but it was partially the Republic's fault, from my POV. They should have just let them secede. They wanted secession from corruption and high taxes.
The Separatist Supreme Commander is an abomination of nature, a fusion of flesh and droid—and his droid parts have more compassion than what remains of his alien flesh. This half-living creature is a slaughterer of billions. Whole planets have burned at his command. He is the evil genius of the Confederacy. The architect of their victories.
The author of their atrocities.
From the "Revenge of the Sith" novelization. That's from an ebook, so I don't have an exact page number, but it's in the the first chapter probably not ten pages in.
1. It's you 'have' called me a fuckface (and really, a simple 'called' would have done). And no, I don't think that counts as flaming.
What? How am I wrong on both counts? What? You think that the death of one man (the archduke franz ferdinand), is worth the death of millions in retaliation for that?
No, you're wrong in assuming that WW1 wouldn't have happened anyway.
Those thousands of star systems didn't want the republic's corruption and high taxes.
Which changes the fact that they were affected by your 'no consequences' war-how, exactly?
I highly doubt that billions of galactic civilians were killed by the Separatist droid armies during the Clone Wars.
Episode III and the Clone Wars series (as well as the print EU) say you're wrong.[/quote]
How/why am I wrong in assuming that WW1 wouldn't have happened anyways?
Where does either the film or the EU say that billions of innocent galactic civilians were killed by the CIS droid armies, dude?
Spiderman Fanboy wrote:And, besides, Sidious was evil for starting the Clone Wars, but it was partially the Republic's fault, from my POV. They should have just let them secede. They wanted secession from corruption and high taxes.
Just like the North should have just let the South secede?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Spiderman Fanboy wrote:And, besides, Sidious was evil for starting the Clone Wars, but it was partially the Republic's fault, from my POV. They should have just let them secede. They wanted secession from corruption and high taxes.
Just like the North should have just let the South secede?
Umm, please elaborate on what you mean by that.
I have spoken with three people who believe that the Civil War was an unjust war.
Yeah. There totally was nothing wrong with slavery. Are you for real?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Spiderman Fanboy wrote:Where does either the film or the EU say that billions of innocent galactic civilians were killed by the CIS droid armies, dude?
Read up to my last post.
"Umm, please elaborate on what you mean by that.
I have spoken with three people who believe that the Civil War was an unjust war."
Hooboy. Lemme go get some popcorn.
Last edited by Ralin on 2013-02-08 10:07pm, edited 1 time in total.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Batman wrote:Yeah. There totally was nothing wrong with slavery. Are you for real?
I never had said that I condoned slavery.
All I'm saying is this. The ACW was also about secession, not just about slavery. Even if there was no slavery, it still would have happened. Even if I'm wrong about that one, in this paticular context, we were discussing starting a war over just merely secession (the CIS didn't support slavery, so that's out of context over here, dude).
Batman wrote:Yeah. There totally was nothing wrong with slavery. Are you for real?
I never had said that I condoned slavery.
No, you merely said you condoned a government that did was entitled to blow up civilians by the billions because that would teach people that they were will to blow up civilians by the billions just to make a point.
All I'm saying is this. The ACW was also about secession, not just about slavery. Even if there was no slavery, it still would have happened.
As per-your say so.
Even if I'm wrong about that one, in this paticular context, we were discussing starting a war over just merely secession (the CIS didn't support slavery, so that's out of context over here, dude).
A war that was just as illegal. You want to leave the Union, you go through legal channels. You do not start a war.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Please list some examples of how the Seperatists had killed/bombed/razed civilians. Just a list of some EU evidence to support that. I also want to discuss more other sub-topics about the morality of the good guys and the bad guys on this thread!
Let's see, there was 'Labyrinth of Evil' where the CIS fleet was pinned down by the Republic and Grievous ordered his lead elements to attack refugee ships so the Fleet would try and save them instead of stopping Grievous' escape. This mirrors a similar incident on Ord Mantell where he has droids level a large town for the same reason. Or the attempted genocide of the Mon Calamari in the old TV show. The destruction of the hospital at Kallida Shoals adds at least 60,000 to the bodycount, and we never get an exact count for the decision of the CIS to deploy pod-hunter ships specifically to destroy any and all Republic escape pods. Ah, but those last two are not civilian casualties.
However, most of the atrocities are alluded to, not described in any great detail.
Oh, and good luck with the Civil War reference. You really should not have gone there.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
The cartoon shows plenty of illegal experimentation, destruction of cities, oppression, etc. You could argue that this isn't a part of Palpatine/the sith's plans, except it is - they drove the CIS to be as radical as possible in order to solidify resistance to them.
Spiderman Fanboy wrote:And, besides, Sidious was evil for starting the Clone Wars, but it was partially the Republic's fault, from my POV. They should have just let them secede. They wanted secession from corruption and high taxes.
And you're completely missing the point that the reason the Republic went to war over them leaving was because Palpatine forced the issue (the whole "not letting this Republic fall" bit, remember that?).
There was a war because Palpatine made the war. We'll never know if the CIS might have been allowed to peacefully leave the Republic because Palpatine would never let it happen.
This is how he became Emperor, and to go back to your earlier example of the Naboo Crisis, it would be pretty fucking evil of the US President to use some crisis to declare himself King of America if the President created the crisis in the first place.
What part of this is so difficult to understand?
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
There was a war because Palpatine made the war. We'll never know if the CIS might have been allowed to peacefully leave the Republic because Palpatine would never let it happen.
And that's not even getting to the fact that Count Dooku who was Darth Tyranus(or how ever you spelt that) aka Darth Sidious' apprentice, probably pushed the separtist to take such drastic actions or the fact that one of the CIS leaders was willing to have a Republic Senator killed for a petty reason as a "payment" for his support and Dooku not only knew this but was willing to do it.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
There was a war because Palpatine made the war. We'll never know if the CIS might have been allowed to peacefully leave the Republic because Palpatine would never let it happen.
And that's not even getting to the fact that Count Dooku who was Darth Tyranus(or how ever you spelt that) aka Darth Sidious' apprentice, probably pushed the separtist to take such drastic actions or the fact that one of the CIS leaders was willing to have a Republic Senator killed for a petty reason as a "payment" for his support and Dooku not only knew this but was willing to do it.
So, an entire galactic scale war had to happen just to rescue one person, or rather, just because of the life of one individual person? Right. Just like WW1.
Spiderman Fanboy wrote:And, besides, Sidious was evil for starting the Clone Wars, but it was partially the Republic's fault, from my POV. They should have just let them secede. They wanted secession from corruption and high taxes.
And you're completely missing the point that the reason the Republic went to war over them leaving was because Palpatine forced the issue (the whole "not letting this Republic fall" bit, remember that?).
There was a war because Palpatine made the war. We'll never know if the CIS might have been allowed to peacefully leave the Republic because Palpatine would never let it happen.
This is how he became Emperor, and to go back to your earlier example of the Naboo Crisis, it would be pretty fucking evil of the US President to use some crisis to declare himself King of America if the President created the crisis in the first place.
What part of this is so difficult to understand?
Well, it was also partially the Republic's fault for waging an unjust war over secession. And you're completley missing the point that the reason that the Republic could have used civil disobedience with Chancellor Palpatine, after all, at that point, he really had no military to support him against his rivals.
But the ROTS "the republic will be reorganized into the first galactic empire" scene was just a title, a formality, a figurehead's title. He already had absolute power as a dictator long before he had coronated himself as the Emperor. What difference does a title make?
People would be very angry if Obama had taken a title of nobility against the US constitution too, but it wouldn't be that big of a deal.
It would be like if Obama had created a crisis and he became a dictator, but nobody cares until Obama gives himself the title of an absolute ruler (ie, king obama or emperor Obama).
Might as well cross post this, since it is relevant here too.
RotS page 348 wrote:
Order Sixty-Six is the climax of the Clone Wars.
Not the end-the Clone Wars will end some few hours from now, when a coded signal, sent by Nute Gunray from the secret Separatist bunker on Mustafar, deactivates every combat droid in the galaxy at once-but the climax.
It's not a thrilling climax; it's not the culmination of an epic struggle. just the opposite, in fact. The Clone Wars were never an epic struggle. They were never intended to be.
What is happening right now is why the Clone Wars were fought int he first place. it is their reason for existence. The Clone Wars have always been, in and of themselves, from their very inception, the revenge of the Sith.
They were irresistible bait. the took place in remote locations, on planets that belonged, primarily, to "somebody else." They were fought by expendable proxies. And they were constructed as a win-win situation.
The Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap.
By fighting at all, the Jedi lost.
With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. and the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders.
In this case, Order Sixty-Six.
Hold-out blasters appear in clone hands. ARC-170s drop back onto the tails of Jedi starfighters. AT-STs swivel their guns. Turrets on hovertanks swung silently.
Clones open fire, and Jedi die.
All across the galaxy. All at once.
Jedi die.
The clone wars wasn't some oppressive government oppressing the poor companies and people of the CIS. The clone wars wasn't the aggressive Jedi starting a war over one person. The clone wars was the Sith plan to throw the galaxy into chaos and seize power and destroy it's enemy, the Jedi Order.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Examples of CIS atrocities that impacted entire planets and sectors and potentially killed billions and potentially trillions of innocents (quote from wikipedia, but sourced in episode guides for clone wars TV and incredible cross sections)
"Months later, Grievous put into motion Operation Durge's Lance, a major Separatist campaign whose goal was the complete conquest of the Core Worlds. Hundreds of planets along the Corellian Trade Spine fell before his forces, including the major world of Duro[1] whose surrender Grievous personally supervised by forcing a public surrender from Hoolidan Keggle in a galaxy-wide HoloNet transmission. Grievous was also responsible for the orbital bombardment of the heavily populated and urbanized planet Humbarine, one of the founding members of the Galactic Republic, during an hour-long orbital bombardment by the Separatist starfleet under his flagship, Invisible Hand, which resulted in the fragmentation of the planet's crust.[52] During the Battle of Loedorvia, he released the Loedorvian Brain Plague into the Weemell sector, which destroyed Republic armies and nearly all Humans on the planet.[36] Due to these acts of wanton destruction, Grievous soon became an avatar of terror in the eyes of the citizens of the Republic, as he won battle after battle.[1]"
An explanation is desired of how the 'empire/sith is not evil' would be applied to the questions below:
Please explain how the Sith are able to manipulate or pervert life and will to their ends without the willful participation of the subjects(mind tricks, alchemy)? (not withstanding the usage by Jedi of some of the same questionable tactics)
Please explain why the Sith could not peacefully and directly challenge the Jedi on religious and philosophical grounds and establish a system that does not draw in outsiders to their argument?
Please explain how the Sith are able to manipulate political, military and civilian forces for their own personal gain without willful participation of the subjects?
Please explain how the Sith are not evil when they destroy civilizations, star systems, start wars to gain power when they could operate in regions of space where their actions in increased power of the force do not impact others?
Please explain how the sith were able to utilize government and military forces to persecute order 66 without being held accountable for that action?
Please explain how the empire was able to put in place the Moffs and regional governors by replacing the planetary governments without consent from the governed?
Please explain how the Emperor was able to dissolve the senate permanently and elevate himself without getting a vote of the representative populations (or the senate itself) to do so?
Please explain how the empire was able to systematically create and enforce a policy of xenophobia and alien persecution including enslavement and forced labor of entire civilian populations (wookies, mon calimari, etc) without of the consent of the persecuted and in conflict with the preexisting government that did not condone this activity?
Please explain how corrupt and brutal officials, who in individual or in concert, carried out oppressive and violent acts were promoted without being held accountable by the imperial regime for their actions?
Please explain how the empire was able to justify the directed killing of rebels not actively engaged in violent acts without first attempting to capture and apply due process to them?
Please explain why the storm troopers on tatooine did not arrest or fine Owen and Beru, or arrest and detain the Jawa's as part of investigation?
Please explain how the empire justified the seizure of resources and property without due compensation and without breach of contract? (cloud city and others)
Please explain how Tarkin was able to be promoted after utilizing a victory star destroy to land on a peaceful sit in protest against taxes, rather than addressing the issues of the protestors and giving due process to suspected radicals?
Please explain why Alderaan could not have been avoided by Tarkin through a rigorous usage of inspection, evaluation and due process to ensure rebel activity was not being carried out?
Please explain how representatives of the Military and Political wings of the Imperial state were not held accountable (rank demotion or expulsion) for their actions when collateral damage impacted civilian life, liberty and property exceeded that necessary to stop an active threat?
Please explain how documented, regulated, entrenched and encouraged acts of slavery, persecution, suspension of being rights and due process, corruption, murder, experimentation on beings and annihilation of civilized planets is handled within a framework of government without repercussions to those involved and without being classified as 'systematically evil' from inside the society that is impacted by those acts?
If you argue 'evil is a point of view' and these acts can be carried out inside a self consistent framework of morals, then the examples above are irrelevant and the actual question that should be asked is specifically around the composition of morality and the definition of good and evil acts inside a population. Additionally, the definition of an evil act that is acknowledged and/or punished, verses a cultural of acceptance of the acts needs to be addressed as well.
In short please provide evidence that the shift from the Republic system of government to the Imperial system of government was supported by the majority of the populace and that the moral basis of society shifted to support the policies and practices of the new government regime and how it dealt with minority and dissenting groups.
