Captain America: Civil War thread

[Gaidin]

Well, funny thing, going by TWS, Cap seems like the person who's perfectly willing to chafe at the bit for quite a long period of time. Until you give him an order that goes over the line. See CW's 'kill-on-sight' order for Bucky, when Bucky is apparently himself and no longer committing crimes.

[Adam Reynolds]

Well, the Avengers as a private organization was interesting in that they were able to keep their antics limited to rumors(remote HYDRA bases) until they wrecked a train in China, a city in Wakanda, and a city in Sokovia. Yes, mostly the bad guy's fault. But when the bad guy's not around, and there's no agency around to do the bureaucracy machine for you...

Given that The Avengers were also the ones who created said bad guy, that does complicate things.

[Kojiro]

First off, the Avengers were never in China in AoU, That was Seoul where the train incident happened.

As to accountability, SHIELD in any form has to be at least partially accountable to whoever is paying the bills. Coulson's new airbus (the Zephyr) can't possibly be a cheap piece of hardware, nor is it something you knock together in a backyard. Unless SHIELD had/has staggeringly large secret investments that continue to fund them, someone is keeping the lights on. Whoever that is can always threaten to pull the plug, which may or may not work immediately but an organisation like that will come to grinding halt pretty fast without cash. The Avengers were privately funded so they were without oversight in any way. If the earth is in sufficient peril again there's nothing stopping Thor from bridging in with several thousand Asgardians- a plot device that actually happened in Ultimates. The Avengers have a literal army at their disposal (Loki's meddling not withstanding). The Accords are probably some UN international laws that attempt to reign in super heroes but decidedly target human like ones. Innately powered individuals would be far too varied to have proscribed rules and so it probably defaults to something horrible, like incarceration where possible and execution. I wouldn't be surprised if Banner is also on the kill list.

Given that The Avengers were also the ones who created said bad guy, that does complicate things.

Technically the blame for that would lie with Scarlet Witch, especially if you believe in mind control. Which means that Stark should at least be open to the idea that peoples mental state can be altered and they at least have diminished, to a greater or lesser extent, responsibility for their actions. That should make him sympathetic to Bucky at the least.

What will also be interesting though is that this will have another, direct effect on Agents of SHIELD and the way inhumans are supposed to be dealt with.

[FaxModem1]

The Marvel movie people are trying to keep the Avengers films watchable by themselves, hence the lack of Coulson and the Avengers not even knowing that he's alive. Its why at times, Agents of SHIELD feels like its separate from everything else. There was a big reveal that Coulson fixed up a helicarrier, which was used in Age of Ultron for evacuation. Considering we haven't seen the Helicarrier on Agents of SHIELD at all in season 3, and it survived Age of Ultron, I wonder if Nick Fury just absconded with the thing. Otherwise, Coulson is a bit of an idiot if he isn't using his biggest and best asset to fight HYDRA.

[Gaidin]

Mostly because the kind of fighting he and HYDRA are doing the Helicarrier is a moot point. Overkill in fact. They're doing espionage against each other. You've seen in at least two Avengers movies the kind of operations you use those things for. Now, might have made for a decent airbase in the Season 2 ender, but that happened just a little too fast to put things in place and basically run an operation involving it on their own aircraft carrier. Faster and easier to do exactly what they did and run their rescue operation.

HYDRA? They mostly stay in the dark as much as them.

[FaxModem1]

Except in last week's episode, wherein their little plane had to run away from HYDRA's air turrets. Having a carrier with large guns might have helped in that regard.

[Gaidin]

So they could shoot at a huge not-so-maneuverable hovering carrier instead of a plane that could react? Not like the cloaking ability of the Helicarrier is anything special here if they're catching these things now...

Also, 3 man off-books mission turns into a...what's the size of the crew?

[FaxModem1]

Or they could simply outgun the airbase, and either A. Pull out of range of the guns and rain holy fire, or B. shoot all the turrets and defenses down quickly and come at their leisure.

And since SHIELD answers to no one, all their missions are off-the-books.

[Gaidin]

With their own people in there?

[FaxModem1]

With their own people in there?

Really depends on how accurate Helicarrier guns are. Especially since the Project Insight Models were meant to snipe at people on the ground. We don't know the weapons capability of the original, which I'm assuming is the one that was in the two Avengers films, but it has some sort of weapons capability.

It's also a carrier, which means it could launch enough forces to take out the turrets independently while landing craft deploy troops.

[Adam Reynolds]

Or they could simply outgun the airbase, and either A. Pull out of range of the guns and rain holy fire, or B. shoot all the turrets and defenses down quickly and come at their leisure.

And since SHIELD answers to no one, all their missions are off-the-books.

Does that helicarrier even have guns? The Insight models were different.

The fact that Fury brought War Machine to Sokovia instead of using the weapons on his carrier indicates that it might not.

Though of course the budget of Agents of Shield will never let them have a helicarrier do much of anything.

[The Romulan Republic]

Actually, Agents of SHIELD has decent effects.

Sure, they don't show battles on the scale of the Avengers finales, but they're fine.

[Gaidin]

With their own people in there?

Really depends on how accurate Helicarrier guns are. Especially since the Project Insight Models were meant to snipe at people on the ground. We don't know the weapons capability of the original, which I'm assuming is the one that was in the two Avengers films, but it has some sort of weapons capability.

It's also a carrier, which means it could launch enough forces to take out the turrets independently while landing craft deploy troops.

So NOT "rain holy fire". Yea. Ohhh...kay....

[FaxModem1]

Well, it's a possibility, it really depends on Helicarrier capability, and how badly Coulson wanted Simmon and Fitz back, especially considering that he had a hostage of his own.

[Gaidin]

Well, it's a possibility, it really depends on Helicarrier capability, and how badly Coulson wanted Simmon and Fitz back, especially considering that he had a hostage of his own.

Find me an episode where Coulson doesn't try to get his people back when he thinks he can. About the only thing I'd grant you is Coulson's not in his most reasonable state here, and that's probably why he's put an interim Director in place and doesn't have the authority to move a helicarrier into place anyway.

[FaxModem1]

Well, it's a possibility, it really depends on Helicarrier capability, and how badly Coulson wanted Simmon and Fitz back, especially considering that he had a hostage of his own.

Find me an episode where Coulson doesn't try to get his people back when he thinks he can. About the only thing I'd grant you is Coulson's not in his most reasonable state here, and that's probably why he's put an interim Director in place and doesn't have the authority to move a helicarrier into place anyway.

How about the end of season 2, where it was after Age of Ultron, and the assault on the Inhuman base, wherein he didn't bring the Helicarrier there? There are multiple opportunities in the latter half of season 2 and in season 3 where using a Helicarrier would have come in handy, but wasn't used.

[Gaidin]

How about the end of season 2, where it was after Age of Ultron, and the assault on the Inhuman base, wherein he didn't bring the Helicarrier there? There are multiple opportunities in the latter half of season 2 and in season 3 where using a Helicarrier would have come in handy, but wasn't used.

Please really? I didn't ask you to find me an episode where he doesn't bring every god damn chip to the table and goes all fucking in. Which, by the way, would be a disastrous general policy for any agency out there for the record. I said find me an episode where he doesn't try to get his people back when he thinks he can. Now answer the question instead of spouting a red herring please.

[FaxModem1]

Well, it's a possibility, it really depends on Helicarrier capability, and how badly Coulson wanted Simmon and Fitz back, especially considering that he had a hostage of his own.

This is what I said, not that Coulson wants to abandon his people. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that Coulson has helicarrier capability, and he doesn't bring it to the table, even though a self-sustaining flying aircraft carrier that is invisible and can be used as a mobile base and logistics center would be a boon to fighting a terrorist organization. It either means that Coulson is an idiot that doesn't realize the utility of a flying helicarrier when it comes to fighting a worldwide organization dedicated to spreading chaos and their own version of order, or that Coulson gave the helicarrier away to Fury and hasn't seen it returned while Nick Fury is joyriding around the Earth.

So, Coulson could either bring helicarriers to the table when he wants to fight HYDRA bases and catch Ward, catch and house Inhumans, or deal with transporting materials and people for giant research projects, like the attempt to get Simmons back. This is especially odd, considering that they made an entirely new Bus in order to transport and deploy Inhumans and the teams to go capture them.

Coulson clearly has the resources to utilize and man the helicarrier, as he fully repaired/maybe retrofitted it in season 2 and deployed it in Age of Ultron. So, it's a fully capable helicarrier that, for all we know, is just sitting in a warehouse somewhere gathering dust instead of being used for field use.

[Mr Bean]

You gentlemen are ignoring another possibility, that Coulson may have a fully armed and operation... but not fueled or staffed Helicarrier on standby. The Navy puts a lot of ships along a lot of piers not just for rest and refit but as a simple cost saving measures. Has Coulson ever waved around the unlimited government credit card or given an indication of how deep the SHIELD pockets go?

Also Self-Sustaining how? Does Stark Tek produce air, water, food, fuel, power and spare parts on demand?

Imagine this conversation
"Sir we found an Inhuman in New York!"
"Excellent send the Helicarrier!"
"Sir it costs us sixty million dollars a day to operate the helicarrier at minimum manning, Congress/The UN/Scrooge McDuck told us we are only allowed to use that against global threats, at rest it still costs us half a million dollars a day in upkeep, security and maintenance but we have the budget for that"
"Fine, no helicarrier, we'll use the van"

[FaxModem1]

You gentlemen are ignoring another possibility, that Coulson may have a fully armed and operation... but not fueled or staffed Helicarrier on standby. The Navy puts a lot of ships along a lot of piers not just for rest and refit but as a simple cost saving measures. Has Coulson ever waved around the unlimited government credit card or given an indication of how deep the SHIELD pockets go?

Also Self-Sustaining how? Does Stark Tek produce air, water, food, fuel, power and spare parts on demand?

Imagine this conversation
"Sir we found an Inhuman in New York!"
"Excellent send the Helicarrier!"
"Sir it costs us sixty million dollars a day to operate the helicarrier at minimum manning, Congress/The UN/Scrooge McDuck told us we are only allowed to use that against global threats, at rest it still costs us half a million dollars a day in upkeep, security and maintenance but we have the budget for that"
"Fine, no helicarrier, we'll use the van"

Frankly, its a complete mystery how Coulson keeps the lights on. Fury handed him the keys at the end of season 1, and joined forces with Real SHIELD at the end of season 2, with Coulson not seeming to worry about financial resources at all, as he can fund the repairs of a helicarrier, the hiring of operatives, R&D facilities, the multiple quinjets or whatever they are, keep the lights on, and the aircraft carrier that they now have in addition, which has also disappeared since season 2.

[Gaidin]

Frankly, its a complete mystery how Coulson keeps the lights on. Fury handed him the keys at the end of season 1, and joined forces with Real SHIELD at the end of season 2, with Coulson not seeming to worry about financial resources at all, as he can fund the repairs of a helicarrier, the hiring of operatives, R&D facilities, the multiple quinjets or whatever they are, keep the lights on, and the aircraft carrier that they now have in addition, which has also disappeared since season 2.

I'm picturing this episode, and frankly the tedium of the Accounting Division is boring me. Let's get back to Operations and save the Helicarrier for...you know...saving the world. And not espionage.

[FaxModem1]

Well, yes, an entire episode of Coulson balancing his checkbook and trying to see what expenses are tax deductible for his non-government agency treehouse would probably be boring. But its an open question that's been around since season 2. To paraphrase the Joker, "Where does he get those wonderful toys, let alone pay for dinner?"

[The Romulan Republic]

Actually, I'd love to see them do a light comedy episode that was just Coulson getting stressed out dealing with administrative problems.

[Gaidin]

Except we're hardly BSG where our very survival depends on these resources. Fury has set aside this crap. This cannot be denied what with the Cube at the end of Season 1. At some point you might get a throwaway line of him chucking a few hundred million into a shell corporation who's sole duty is to invest the money and turn it into billions to fund his Agency.

And that's assuming he hasn't gained the confidence of the government given the way things are going for a SHIELD vs ATCU Inhumans matchup here.

Yea. Ok. Have your throwaway line. But an episode? It's a waste of 43 minutes. That's really not what this show's about.

[Gaidin]

I'm starting to think we need an MCU thread....I accidentally derailed the crap out of this one, and it seems interesting enough that nobody's called me on it.

And let's face it...the MCU is big enough.