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Eternal_Freedom wrote:Is it perfect? No. Does it have plot holes and a few gratuitous appearances of OT characters? Yeah, but I really don't mind them.

Out of curiosity, which appearances did you think were the most gratuitous? Aside from Tarkin, Red and Gold Leaders were my favorite appearances by OT characters. I kinda wish they'd shown us cameos of Motti, Tagge and Bast too.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Though speaking of plotholes...how did the Cantina guys get off Jedha before it got kaboomed?

Probably got the hell out of there when the fighting started. Who would want to hang around for that? I didn't care for their cameos either though. They were pointless fan service. So were C-3PO and R2-D2, to be honest.

Galvatron wrote:No reason?? They were Yavin IV's Red and Gold Squadron leaders at the time of ANH. Why wouldn't they have been at the Battle of Scarif?

That was one thing that caused me to notice another. This is the Yavin 4 briefing room before the DS attack.

Now I'm not saying that I object to the clearly added female fighter pilots in R1, but it does force me to ask where they all are now? The Rebellion was clearly not always such a diverse bunch. Nor was the Empire, but did anyone notice a female Imperial at any point in the film?

Galvatron wrote:

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Is it perfect? No. Does it have plot holes and a few gratuitous appearances of OT characters? Yeah, but I really don't mind them.

Out of curiosity, which appearances did you think were the most gratuitous? Aside from Tarkin, Red and Gold Leaders were my favorite appearances by OT characters. I kinda wish they'd shown us cameos of Motti, Tagge and Bast too.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Though speaking of plotholes...how did the Cantina guys get off Jedha before it got kaboomed?

Probably got the hell out of there when the fighting started. Who would want to hang around for that? I didn't care for their cameos either though. They were pointless fan service. So were C-3PO and R2-D2, to be honest.

You nailed it frankly, the two Cantina guys and Threepio and Artoo. Everyone else made sense; Mothma, Organa, Tarkin, Red/Gold leaders, even Leia.

ray245 wrote:

Eternal_Freedom wrote: One thing I think worked to it's advantage compared to TFA was that it didn't ned to spend time o world-building; no need to explain the First Order/Republic/Resistance crap, just "this is the EMpire's big new toy, lets find out how to break it."

TFA had worldbuilding? LOL.

Rogue One had far more worldbuilding than TFA. This could work as a standalone movie and we have a pretty decent idea about the GFFA. We know about the structure of the empire, with a senate that annoys military figures and the emperor. We know that which worlds were responsible for funding the Rebels and organizing them. We know that the Rebels were made up of different factions.

I meant that Rogue One didn't have to attempt worldbuilding as a main part of the story; they didn't need to (try) and set up a whole new era.

Kojiro wrote:Now I'm not saying that I object to the clearly added female fighter pilots in R1, but it does force me to ask where they all are now?

KIA at the Battle of Scarif, perhaps? IIRC, we only saw the one and it wouldn't surprise me if she either got vaped or splattered against the hull of Vader's ISD. A lot of other rebel pilots and soldiers lost their lives on that day too.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:You nailed it frankly, the two Cantina guys and Threepio and Artoo. Everyone else made sense; Mothma, Organa, Tarkin, Red/Gold leaders, even Leia.

I'd have preferred Mon Mothma remained on Coruscant leading the rebel-sympathetic bloc of the Imperial Senate up until the moment it was dissolved. I thought she was somewhat out of place slumming it on Yavin IV when she should have been doing her best to keep up appearances.

Given that that meeting involved all the Rebel leaders, I think her presence made sense, and I don't recall seeing her there afterwards.

Eternal_Freedom wrote: I meant that Rogue One didn't have to attempt worldbuilding as a main part of the story; they didn't need to (try) and set up a whole new era.

But we ended up with many worldbuilding elements in Rogue One anyway. All the dialogue scene between the Imperials, the discussion among the Rebel leadership is more than enough for the movie to stand on its own.

Watch Rogue One alone and you would have a pretty good idea about the conflict that is going on in the Galaxy.

I'd have preferred Mon Mothma remained on Coruscant leading the rebel-sympathetic bloc of the Imperial Senate up until the moment it was dissolved. I thought she was somewhat out of place slumming it on Yavin IV when she should have been doing her best to keep up appearances.

Apparently she declared an open rebellion 2 years ago, and is a wanted fugitive.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Given that that meeting involved all the Rebel leaders, I think her presence made sense, and I don't recall seeing her there afterwards.

I'm referring to her first appearance, before the big meeting.

ray245 wrote:Apparently she declared an open rebellion 2 years ago, and is a wanted fugitive.

Is that established in the new EU?

Galvatron wrote:

ray245 wrote:Apparently she declared an open rebellion 2 years ago, and is a wanted fugitive.

Is that established in the new EU?

Yes. It is stated in the new Rogue One Visual dictionary.

ray245 wrote:

Eternal_Freedom wrote: I meant that Rogue One didn't have to attempt worldbuilding as a main part of the story; they didn't need to (try) and set up a whole new era.

But we ended up with many worldbuilding elements in Rogue One anyway. All the dialogue scene between the Imperials, the discussion among the Rebel leadership is more than enough for the movie to stand on its own.

Watch Rogue One alone and you would have a pretty good idea about the conflict that is going on in the Galaxy.

I'm not denying this film had worldbuilding elements to it. My point is that unlike TFA, which had to set up a whole new era by default, Rogue One could build on established stuff rather than inventing it from whole cloth. And that since those elements are essentially bonuses rather than essential to the plot, they worked better.

ray245 wrote:Yes. It is stated in the new Rogue One Visual dictionary.

Oh well. It's not a dealbreaker for me, just a different direction than I would have preferred with her character.

Eternal_Freedom wrote: I'm not denying this film had worldbuilding elements to it. My point is that unlike TFA, which had to set up a whole new era by default, Rogue One could build on established stuff rather than inventing it from whole cloth. And that since those elements are essentially bonuses rather than essential to the plot, they worked better.

The point is it didn't even eat up much time to set up all the world-building elements in Rogue One. Nor did it distract from the plot.

Galvatron wrote:

ray245 wrote:Yes. It is stated in the new Rogue One Visual dictionary.

Oh well. It's not a dealbreaker for me, just a different direction than I would have preferred with her character.

We already have Bail as the supposedly still loyal senator.

I thought Bail retired from the Senate and Leia took over his seat.

Galvatron wrote:I thought Bail retired from the Senate and Leia took over his seat.

Leia took over, but it is clear that Bail is still somewhat active in politics.

Galvatron wrote: Another thing that bothered me was the continuity headache it created with ANH. Okay, so Vader assumed that the rebel spies transmitted the plans to the Tantive IV. I guess I can buy that. However, why was Leia his "only link" to finding their base? Given what we saw in this movie, it seems to me that any rebel grunt could have told Vader what he wanted to know. Moreover, didn't the Imperials capture their flagship? Unless they somehow fought to the death without getting stunned, wouldn't Admiral Raddus and his crew have sufficed?

More to come, I'm sure.

It's possible that the Rebellion is split up into cells with only the leaders knowing where the Rebel base is. So the Mon Cal captain would know the coordinates for the base, but killed himself rather than face capture. All the other Rebel crews (and maybe even some of the other Rebel captains) may not know anything about the Rebellion beyond their own cell, only receiving orders that read, "Meet at X, Y, Z at T time, for major battle" and launch from wherever it is they are hiding.

Darth Ruinus wrote:It's possible that the Rebellion is split up into cells with only the leaders knowing where the Rebel base is.

But the opening crawl of ANH said "Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire."

Granted, that doesn't mean the rebels all know the location of the base. Perhaps the Alliance deliberately withholds that information from their pilots and rely on droids to navigate their ships. Droids that could be programmed to wipe their own memory if captured. This might be how they prevented the Empire from torturing that information out of captured rebels.

Darth Ruinus wrote: It's possible that the Rebellion is split up into cells with only the leaders knowing where the Rebel base is. So the Mon Cal captain would know the coordinates for the base, but killed himself rather than face capture. All the other Rebel crews (and maybe even some of the other Rebel captains) may not know anything about the Rebellion beyond their own cell, only receiving orders that read, "Meet at X, Y, Z at T time, for major battle" and launch from wherever it is they are hiding.

This is what the first season of Rebels indicated. The fact that different groups attacked Scarif at different points is also indicative of different cells not fully cooperating. Saw Guerra was also clearly a different cell that had gone rogue as well.

Though if Phoenix squadron joined the fight, where were their A-wings?

Didn't the rest of the Alliance council refuse to help? I thought that's why Rogue One was rogue.

Just saw the movie this afternoon.

I was disappointed and a little confused that the two star destroyers at Scarif didn't seem to put up much of a fight. I was expecting to see one of them fire off a salvo from its main guns and slag one of the smaller rebel ships. Instead, most of the fighting in space seemed to involve starfighters and there was not any significant action involving the heavy turbolaser batteries. What gives?

I was also disappointed in Donnie Yen's character. They could have given him some more badass martial arts moments and less weird chanting, I feel like Donnie Yen's skills were wasted on his character.

How could a strategic analysis droid be that good at combat? Maybe the Imperials should use more droids instead of Stormtroopers.

Galvatron wrote:

Darth Ruinus wrote:It's possible that the Rebellion is split up into cells with only the leaders knowing where the Rebel base is.

But the opening crawl of ANH said "Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire."

Granted, that doesn't mean the rebels all know the location of the base. Perhaps the Alliance deliberately withholds that information from their pilots and rely on droids to navigate their ships. Droids that could be programmed to wipe their own memory if captured. This might be how they prevented the Empire from torturing that information out of captured rebels.

Well, at least some of them know where the base is (Red, Blue, Gold Squadron, and the Mon Cal guy), so yeah, some of them are striking from a hidden base... but there's no reason to believe that they all know. All they know is they get on a capital ship, go "somewhere" and then go on missions. If they get captured and talk, all they can talk about is "I dunno, it was some jungle planet near a gas giant" which might not be the most helpful clue in a galaxy of billions of star systems. Your suggestion is good too. I'm just saying that nothing in the movie contradicts the opening crawl of Ep 4, nor causes as many* giant canon discontinuities as people seem to think.

*I don't think there are any, to be honest.

Galvatron wrote:Didn't the rest of the Alliance council refuse to help? I thought that's why Rogue One was rogue.

Yes, the Alliance didn't plan on attacking Scariff you are correct. However, that scene also shows that the Rebellion isn't a single organization but a collection of various groups (the Alliance), with some of them threatening to pull their support. Again, it could be that (for example) all the medical frigates belong to Y group inside the Rebel Alliance but only the captain knows where HQ is. As far as all the medical frigate crew is concerned, their captain leaves Planet A to go to Rebel HQs, comes back and launches his frigates from Planet B.

I got the impression that the council didn't want to fight in scariff as it would provoke the empire but once rogue one was already on the ground there went "ah screw it, send in the fleet lets make this count" or at least signifigant enough portion of the council. Also the Mon Cal member was one the "pro-fight" members to begin with.

As for Phoenix squad the only comfirmed member present at Scariff was the Ghost, also Rebels current season is what 2-3 years before Rogue One for all we know all the A-wings Phoenix squad had were lost forcing them to make due with more common starfighter designs.

Also I wouldn't be at all surpriced if only a few members within the rebel fleet knew where the rebel HQ was, that's just basic security after all you can't expose information you don't know.

Joun_Lord wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:How much of that is really there though and how much is just people seeing things they want to see.

Little if any of it is actually there most likely. Well except for TFA being an allegory for ANH, thats spot on.

Most of those allegories or political messages are based on premises built on outright falsehoods. The Finn getting with Rey is false (and its repugnant that people would be worried about that in the first place, they're racist......against stormtroopers), Max Von Sydow being a villain is false, and Episode 2 and the start of the Clone Wars with it was released about a year before the Iraq War and only about months after the Afghanistan War. Ep2 began production in 2000, well before any of that shit happened.

Maybe Rey being a "Ray of Light" could be true, I could almost see JJ Abrams being so on the nose (though in his defense I personally have a very low opinion of his skills). But even that might be bullshit.

People see what they want to see, they will fit the films into their world views. I mean I think thats what cinema is supposed to do though, make people think and trying to see the meaning in shit.

Well if people want to see something in the work they will regardless how much it makes sense. Maybe it's because they liked the film but it's not "cool" to admit that so they need to fabricate faults so they dislike the movie "honestly", or maybe they have political agenda they're driving (I wouldn't be surpriced that certain people will always protest if the main protagonists aren't blond, blue eyed men).

fuzzymillipede wrote:I was disappointed and a little confused that the two star destroyers at Scarif didn't seem to put up much of a fight. I was expecting to see one of them fire off a salvo from its main guns and slag one of the smaller rebel ships. Instead, most of the fighting in space seemed to involve starfighters and there was not any significant action involving the heavy turbolaser batteries. What gives?

Capital ships, especially ones we have no familiarity with the captain or crew of, are terribly impersonal, either killing or being killed. It's really cool to certain people like the ones you'll find on this type of board, but not essential for the story.

I was also disappointed in Donnie Yen's character. They could have given him some more badass martial arts moments and less weird chanting, I feel like Donnie Yen's skills were wasted on his character.

I really didn't like the walk of invincibility. A jedi using the force to deflect shots is fine. A guy walking at a stroll in the open? I mean trooper accuracy has never looked so bad.

How could a strategic analysis droid be that good at combat? Maybe the Imperials should use more droids instead of Stormtroopers.

It appears so. The droids can melee it up, seem to have excellent reflexes and accuracy and can sustain multiple blaster bolts before going down. Plus, the don't die in a vacuum.

Lord Revan wrote:Well if people want to see something in the work they will regardless how much it makes sense. Maybe it's because they liked the film but it's not "cool" to admit that so they need to fabricate faults so they dislike the movie "honestly", or maybe they have political agenda they're driving (I wouldn't be surpriced that certain people will always protest if the main protagonists aren't blond, blue eyed men).

That does make sense. Snobs all snobbish with their snobbery aren't going to say "I like Star Wars because its a fun ride and things go pew pew and woosh." They have to have some deep meaning, some thing to show the work they enjoy or devote time to isn't just some shallow popcorn movie but something much more meaningful.

Look at how people treat entertaining but shallow shit like Call of Duty and the Bay Transformers. Entertaining? Yeah? Makes a ton of money? Yeah. But is it really beloved, does it have a dedicated fanbase? Debatable. Certainly few if anyone is dissecting them, trying to find some hidden meaning or allegory to contemporary or past events. Its mindless entertainment, what you see is what you get. As such those are things absolutely reviled by films and game critics, "real" gamers, and others.

And yes, some people will bitch if anybody but some generic person is the protagonist, some people will bitch if anyone but someone that looks similar to themselves is the lead. Thankfully that is changing. Despite cries to the contrary few people cared that Furiosa was a woman even if they did care about her taking screen time from the person who was supposed to be the lead, the bitching wasn't really about her gender but her role. I don't think anybody had much of a problem with Marcus being the protagonist of Watch Doges 2 beyond some people thinking he was far more generic and less gripping then generic white guy AIden Pierce.

There is still problems from racist ass fuckers but I think they are becoming less relevant.

Kojiro wrote:

fuzzymillipede wrote:I was disappointed and a little confused that the two star destroyers at Scarif didn't seem to put up much of a fight. I was expecting to see one of them fire off a salvo from its main guns and slag one of the smaller rebel ships. Instead, most of the fighting in space seemed to involve starfighters and there was not any significant action involving the heavy turbolaser batteries. What gives?

Capital ships, especially ones we have no familiarity with the captain or crew of, are terribly impersonal, either killing or being killed. It's really cool to certain people like the ones you'll find on this type of board, but not essential for the story.

I was also disappointed in Donnie Yen's character. They could have given him some more badass martial arts moments and less weird chanting, I feel like Donnie Yen's skills were wasted on his character.

I really didn't like the walk of invincibility. A jedi using the force to deflect shots is fine. A guy walking at a stroll in the open? I mean trooper accuracy has never looked so bad.

How could a strategic analysis droid be that good at combat? Maybe the Imperials should use more droids instead of Stormtroopers.

It appears so. The droids can melee it up, seem to have excellent reflexes and accuracy and can sustain multiple blaster bolts before going down. Plus, the don't die in a vacuum.

There's a good (in-universe) reason why the empire doesn't use droid troopers and that reason is the clone wars (or more precise the fact that battle droids became iconic of tyranny of the CIS), the Empire seems to want project this though but fair parent image of themselves and using battle droids as the main form of infantry runs counter to that image.

As for the troopers, one can argue that troopers at Jedha or Scarriff wouldn't nessecerly be the best the empire has to offer, especially at scarrif I'd suspect they were chosen for loyalty over quality, same for the Death troopers chosen for loyalty over quality after all you'd want your high quality troopers be fighting at places where there's stiff resistance not guarding an installation that's almost impossible to attack to begin with.

The first act was messy in terms of editing and pacing. I don't really like how they started out Jyn's storyline, and Forrest Whittaker's storyline feels like it's been wrecked in editing before the final cut. But as others have said, it really gels after that, and the few times that Felicity Jones gets to show emotions as Jyn in the film, she does well with it. She even has a little bit of chemistry with Cassian at the end.

That said, the characters are the weakest part. I'd be hard-pressed to remember more than one or two lines from Jyn or Cassian, aside from the "rebellions are built on hope" theme line. It doesn't hurt the movie that much because it's so plot-driven, but it is striking when the best character in the whole movie is a droid (K-2SO, whose not only funny and gets some of the best lines, but also has a good heroic last stand).

I thought I'd be bothered by the CGI Tarkin and Leia, but the actual imagery of them didn't bother me. I was more bothered by Tarkin's dialogue - it felt like they'd recycled much of it from ANH and awkwardly meshed it with new stuff. How hard is it to find someone who can impersonate Peter Cushing's voice right?

While Jyn died at the end of this one, Jones apparently still has another Star Wars movie in her contract. Maybe she'll show up in the Han Solo movie, ending the movie by being taken prisoner to the labor camp she gets busted out of in Rogue One.