Identification Cards

salm · Post by **salm** » 2003-11-17 02:18pm

Dark Hellion wrote:Let me get this straight, because the Nazis basically trashed Germany, you made laws against Nazi propaganda. So how the fuck is this propaganda going to be effective if you realize that the Nazis fucked up your country.
Are people in Germany really stupid enough to go back to Nazism after what happened last time?

sure! there´s always a certain amount of morons who think that nazism was a great thing and would vote for the nsdap if it wasn´t illegal. just because we´re rid of the hitler regime doesn´t mean that germany is a totally naziless country. just like in about every other country there´s a certain amount of nazis, racists and crap like that.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-11-17 02:21pm

RedImperator wrote:
salm wrote:
stormbringer wrote: Then it's not really free speech, now is it?
well, then there´s no free speech anywhere. you can´t call someone an asshole in other countries. insulting people is illegal about everywhere. saying "sieg heil" or "kill all <insert ethnic group>" is pretty much the same as an insult (plus a threat and incitement), not an insult to an individual but an insult to an entire ethnic group.
I don't know how it works in the rest of the world, but here, you can insult someone until you turn blue and nobody can do squat to you. What you can't do is SLANDER someone, which is deliberately lying about someone in order to ruin their reputation, but a general insult like "He's an asshole" isn't slander.

Insulting someone is an offense, because you're degrading that person's personal honour.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-11-17 02:22pm

Dahak wrote:
RedImperator wrote:
salm wrote: well, then there´s no free speech anywhere. you can´t call someone an asshole in other countries. insulting people is illegal about everywhere. saying "sieg heil" or "kill all <insert ethnic group>" is pretty much the same as an insult (plus a threat and incitement), not an insult to an individual but an insult to an entire ethnic group.
I don't know how it works in the rest of the world, but here, you can insult someone until you turn blue and nobody can do squat to you. What you can't do is SLANDER someone, which is deliberately lying about someone in order to ruin their reputation, but a general insult like "He's an asshole" isn't slander.
Insulting someone is an offense, because you're degrading that person's personal honour.

So are you saying that it's actually against the law in Germany to insult someone, or just that it's considered boorish and inapproppriate?

CelesKnight · Post by **CelesKnight** » 2003-11-17 02:24pm

phongn wrote:I read the first two books in the trilogy, actually. I didn't know that the third one was out.

Yeah, I think it just came out. Anyway, I didn't like the third one. Too many strage coincidences, and too much technobable.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-11-17 02:29pm

RedImperator wrote:
Dahak wrote:
RedImperator wrote: I don't know how it works in the rest of the world, but here, you can insult someone until you turn blue and nobody can do squat to you. What you can't do is SLANDER someone, which is deliberately lying about someone in order to ruin their reputation, but a general insult like "He's an asshole" isn't slander.
Insulting someone is an offense, because you're degrading that person's personal honour.
So are you saying that it's actually against the law in Germany to insult someone, or just that it's considered boorish and inapproppriate?

It's an offense, punishable by prison sentence up to one year, or a fine. (§185, StGB)

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-11-17 02:32pm

dummnutzer wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote: BTW dummnutzer those "British Citizens" the SAS shot where IRA men and deserved everything they got. And CCTV is neccessary for coping with crime. Maybe your one of these asshole anarchists who believe than any law is bad.

Terrorist "deserve" a trial. This trial should be fair. If convicted, they "deserve" to be punished according to the law. The UK has no Death penalty, IIRC. Murder is murder, whether the victim is a saint or a terrorist.

The unique CCTV-density in the UK has created a safe and secure Britain. Crime rates are down. Elsewhere, crime is rampant. Wrong. Look at the ROTW. CCTV is not very effective, as it only relocates crimes to other areas of the city. It is a creeping infringement of personal freedom.

I may be an asshole, but I am no expert on ad hominem attacks. But as a jurist I can assure You, that some laws are not totally bad.

Junior for a start those terrorists where in the process of trying to cause harm to innocents. Terrorists deserve 9mm of instant justice. IRA terrorists have committed treason, therefore their life is forefit. I COME FROM THE COUNTRY THAT SPAWNED THOSE SCUMBAGS, who the fuck are you to come here and dictate how we deal with our murdering bastards. Life for a life, death for death, justice for the innocent.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-11-17 02:33pm

Dahak wrote:So are you saying that it's actually against the law in Germany to insult someone, or just that it's considered boorish and inapproppriate?

It's an offense, punishable by prison sentence up to one year, or a fine. (§185, StGB)[/quote]

Jesus Christ. You can get a year in prison for calling someone an asshole in Germany but you're still claiming you have free speech? In America, even slander will only get me sued, not jailed.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-11-17 02:38pm

RedImperator wrote:
Dahak wrote:So are you saying that it's actually against the law in Germany to insult someone, or just that it's considered boorish and inapproppriate?
It's an offense, punishable by prison sentence up to one year, or a fine. (§185, StGB)

Jesus Christ. You can get a year in prison for calling someone an asshole in Germany but you're still claiming you have free speech? In America, even slander will only get me sued, not jailed.[/quote]
As I said, the personal honour (and your personal rights) are considered higher than mere free speech in our constitution. So you are not free to infringe that honour and right of others by insulting them.

You mostly get a fine (10 to 30 day rates (Tagessätze), and only if someone files a complaint.
And slandering gets you the same sentence, under aggravated circumstances 2 years prison, or fine.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-11-17 02:45pm

Sorry, but you've got one fucked up Constitution if it lets the government extort money from individuals for calling someone a naughty word. There's nothing on our books that repressive.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-11-17 02:46pm

Man, SDN would be an endless moneymaker for German bureaucrats...

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-11-17 02:48pm

Hey cool, Demolition Man is one step closer to reality...

"Fuck you, asshole"

*BZZZT* You are fined 30 Euros for violation of blah blah blah"

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-11-17 03:06pm

MKSheppard wrote:Hey cool, Demolition Man is one step closer to reality...

"Fuck you, asshole"

*BZZZT* You are fined 30 Euros for violation of blah blah blah"

At least I know how to use the Three Shells.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-11-17 03:52pm

My God, if that's true I've racked up about thirty years just today...

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2003-11-17 04:26pm

wow... i'd have to spend my life in jail if i lived in germany, my favourite method of getting someones attention

"hey, twat face, get your ass over here!!"

works like a charm, its almost expected of me

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-11-17 05:19pm

Durran Korr wrote:Sorry, but you've got one fucked up Constitution if it lets the government extort money from individuals for calling someone a naughty word. There's nothing on our books that repressive.

It just that the right of one person NOT to get insulted weighs higher than the other one's right to insult you.

And really, it's not that often someone goes to court for insults.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-11-17 05:55pm

Dahak wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:Sorry, but you've got one fucked up Constitution if it lets the government extort money from individuals for calling someone a naughty word. There's nothing on our books that repressive.
It just that the right of one person NOT to get insulted weighs higher than the other one's right to insult you.

And really, it's not that often someone goes to court for insults.

People do NOT have the right to not be offended.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-11-17 06:00pm

Debate and sporting events must be very boring in Germany, then.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-11-17 06:01pm

While I may not agree with these statues... Also, I ask you to understand why they are there.

That whole area, was deulist culture at one point If i remember correctly. The idea of having dignity and honor is paramount in their culture.

While I wouldnt necessarily agree with such laws, they are there for cultural reasons.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-11-17 06:05pm

Andrew J. wrote:
Dahak wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:Sorry, but you've got one fucked up Constitution if it lets the government extort money from individuals for calling someone a naughty word. There's nothing on our books that repressive.
It just that the right of one person NOT to get insulted weighs higher than the other one's right to insult you.

And really, it's not that often someone goes to court for insults.
People do NOT have the right to not be offended.

Here, they do.
This is enshrined in the ultimate legal maxime of the Basic Law: The human dignity.

You are free to develop yourpersonality, as long as it doesn't violate the rights of others. And insulting is a violation of that. And you have a right to personal honour.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-11-17 06:06pm

By that argument, you could reason that the anti-sodomy laws the southern states had on the books were there for cultural reasons.

Really, Aly, why go to such lengths to defend this kind of thing? You lose your shit practically everytime John Ashcroft makes a public statement, why not the same for this?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-11-17 06:07pm

You are free to develop yourpersonality, as long as it doesn't violate the rights of others. And insulting is a violation of that. And you have a right to personal honour.

How? How does being insulted prevent you from developing your personality?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-11-17 06:10pm

Durran Korr wrote:By that argument, you could reason that the anti-sodomy laws the southern states had on the books were there for cultural reasons.

Really, Aly, why go to such lengths to defend this kind of thing? You lose your shit practically everytime John Ashcroft makes a public statement, why not the same for this?

Again, I definently do not agree with such laws... But they are there, and all the Germans must do, is take the initiaive to change it. I would, if I was in Germany. But they wrote their constitution that way, and they ratified it. And most germans dont care enough to want to change it, they dont feel like their rights are being violated because they chose to make the tradeoff between their own personal dignity and their right to say whatever the want. If they want to change that, then I would support any who do.

So there is no reason to jump down Dahak's throat.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-11-17 06:13pm

HUman rights, it must be understood, are subject to the peoples will. Their culture decides, and the people decide what rights they want to have in a democratic society. The Germans, value their personal dignity over their right to insult others. Personally, I would prefer it the other way around

But we cant judge other cultures by comparing them to our own, we need to judge them by their own standards.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-11-17 06:16pm

Durran Korr wrote:
You are free to develop yourpersonality, as long as it doesn't violate the rights of others. And insulting is a violation of that. And you have a right to personal honour.
How? How does being insulted prevent you from developing your personality?

Insulting is violating my personal honour, so to speak, and my human dignity.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-11-17 06:18pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:By that argument, you could reason that the anti-sodomy laws the southern states had on the books were there for cultural reasons.

Really, Aly, why go to such lengths to defend this kind of thing? You lose your shit practically everytime John Ashcroft makes a public statement, why not the same for this?
Again, I definently do not agree with such laws... But they are there, and all the Germans must do, is take the initiaive to change it. I would, if I was in Germany. But they wrote their constitution that way, and they ratified it. And most germans dont care enough to want to change it, they dont feel like their rights are being violated because they chose to make the tradeoff between their own personal dignity and their right to say whatever the want. If they want to change that, then I would support any who do.

So there is no reason to jump down Dahak's throat.

Thanks for your help

But Durran isn't jumping my throat. It takes more than that

It's just very interesting to see this fundamental difference some cultural principles...
For me, this Absolute Free Speech seems as preposterous as our laws to you...