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Paellaeon was called the Supreme Commander in the NJO, i think.

Crazedwraith wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:First, that wasn't the Empire. It was the Imperial Remnant, a withered, castrated husk of the Empire's former glory run by warlords.

Second, was Pelleon ever called Supreme Commander, considering that it isn't a military rank?

First, it's only the imperiel remenant afetr the peace treaty

I don't personally consider that mockery to be the Empire.

To me, the Empire died twice with Palpatine.

Supreme Commander is an office; not a military rank.

POTUS is the Supreme Commander of the U.S. Armed Services; we call him the Commander-in-chief, or CinC for short.

Vader and Skywalker were both civilians, yet held the position of Supreme Commander.

Grand Admiral Thrawn was Supreme Commander, insofar as the loyalist factions of the Empire unaware of the Emperor's survival and the reserves in the Deep Core were concerned. He outranked all other known Imperial officers, ipso facto , he was the Supreme Commander without a civilian occupying that position.

The Imperial Remnant is never its official name; but the confederation of warlord kingdoms forged by "Admiral" Daala after murdering a bunch of warlords is not the true Galactic Empire.

The Galactic Empire ceased to exist when the central authority and government of the Empire entirely collapsed after the execution of Imperial Interim Council Chairman Xandel Carivus. At that point, the regime fell, and the Galactic Empire came to an end as a nation-state and distinct entity.

No, wanker, Palpatine was never the Supreme Commander.

Who in the entire empire had the right and the power to appoint whoever would have been in charge over the military? Was it Palpatine or was it Palpatine?

Who didn't come back from the boonies to help the Empire retake the galaxy?

Proof, that Parck was contacted by Palpatine to help in retaking the galaxy.
Proof, that Parck ignored that call, IF it was done.

This has what to do with anything?

Now we are faking naivitee, ehh. It makes clear, what kind of people Palpatine used to govern his empire.

Don't cry too hard; we all know you have a selective memory when one says anything mean about the Blue Man.

Selective memory? Contrary to you i try to put things into perspective, while you willingly ignore everything you have to compare the blue man against.

Oh I see, now you're trying to say it is comparable because Pieterson gave lip, thus enabling him for summary execution.

And Needa, who made a single mistake, that wouldn´t have mattered for the empire, if not for Vader´s obsession with Skywalker and who takes responsibility for his failure deserved to die? Why wasn´t he demoted like Giel, who lost the Tzeel-creature (a, by comparison harder loss for the empire, than the loss of the Falcon).

If he hadn't needed the Falcon to get Luke, he wouldn't have followed the Falcon at all--what do you think the entire point of TESB was?

That is exactly the point. The empire had nothing to gain by capturing Luke Skywalker, Vader did (and he wanted him to overthrow the emperor, too).

FTeik wrote:Who in the entire empire had the right and the power to appoint whoever would have been in charge over the military? Was it Palpatine or was it Palpatine?

Look, he can dismiss and appoint the Supreme Commander at will, but POTUS can dismiss his Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and that doesn't make him possess that position either.

FTeik wrote:Proof, that Parck was contacted by Palpatine to help in retaking the galaxy.
Proof, that Parck ignored that call, IF it was done.

Essential Chronology said all of the Empire was reunited under Palpatine; therefore either Parck was a defector and not an Imperial, or he was impersonating an Imperial officer.

FTeik wrote:Now we are faking naivitee, ehh. It makes clear, what kind of people Palpatine used to govern his empire.

What difference does it make? We all know the Court is a bunch of lickspiddle assholes. Palpatine is Machiavellian, so what?

Parck and his guys were not Imperials. I don't understand why you just can't grasp this.

FTeik wrote:Selective memory? Contrary to you i try to put things into perspective, while you willingly ignore everything you have to compare the blue man against.

Examples? How about Fteik's "Han Solo fucked up once, therefore we can trust him about nothing." You're just a dumbfuck.

I've spanked you in this Thrawn argument several times, so I'm rather irritated dealing with it again.

FTeik wrote:And Needa, who made a single mistake, that wouldn´t have mattered for the empire, if not for Vader´s obsession with Skywalker and who takes responsibility for his failure deserved to die? Why wasn´t he demoted like Giel, who lost the Tzeel-creature (a, by comparison harder loss for the empire, than the loss of the Falcon).

Capturing Skywalker was much more important than the organic communicator.

FTeik wrote:That is exactly the point. The empire had nothing to gain by capturing Luke Skywalker, Vader did (and he wanted him to overthrow the emperor, too).

He was to replace Vader or Palpatine, depending on who won, which is of intimate consideration to the Empire, which is a Sith theocracy.

Vader, 'cause that way I could have gotten to be in the movie.

Vader, because the Executor is a badass ship.

What I'm wondering about to is during VotF when Luke and Mara discover the map of the unchartered region. Mara tells the story of Grand Admiral Thrawn's "banishment" from court with only one star destroyer.

First, Mara concludes that Palpatine and Thrawn would never be clumsy enough in court politics to get caught up with their trousers down like that in court politics. And if Thrawn was really the top dog of military tactics, it would've been extraordinarily foolish for Palpatine to do away with him. So she surmises that it was plotted and planned. Not only does Thrawn get what he wanted (for which reasons we find out in the next few chapters), but Palpatine also gets a lot of "favors" from the people in the Court who want Thrawn out.

Mara also surmises that Thrawn could not have done all that mapping and charting with a single Star Destroyer (and I doubt from the Chiss auxillary either, they barely had any pocket patrol boats last time he was around.. and the military didn't officially support him), Palpatine must have been feeding him men and ships secretly. And why not? Thrawn was opening up a huge new region for the Empire. Regardless whether or not Thrawn had his own agenda, Thrawn needed, wanted the stability and order of the Empire. Which is a lot better than most of the other commanders in the Empire who just wanted whatever they could get.

Later, when Mara is meeting with Parck, Parck tells her that he voluntarily went with Thrawn to command his Stardestroyer. He also hints that there are probably a large number of Imperials out in the Unknowns mixing it up with Chiss forces for whatever plans they have.

Then we get General Fel. From him, we know that Thrawn contact Isaard and had her capture him. Not having read the X-Wing books, maybe they explained it, but if Thrawn was a traitor and threat to the Empire, I would imagine Isaard, head of intelligence would not be inclined to be doing him any favors. And General Fel, the man who once turned his back on the Empire was willing to put the uniform back on because he felt the job that Thrawn was trying to do out in the Unknowns was worth it and brought meaning back to the New Order without the insane madman's bill.

So if you're accusing Thrawn of not clicking his heels and running back to save the Empire at once, at least he was trying to do something constructive rather than squabbling for power. He took men that the Emperor gave him and positioned them in areas where they constantly increased their power. Perhaps the Emperor didn't know the extent of progress Thrawn made out there, but he knew Thrawn was doing something out there since he constantly was sending Thrawn material and men. And I don't think the Emperor would be stupid enough to do that to a man he feared would break away and start carving his own Empire in an area he couldn't touch.

As we hear from Pellaeon at the end of Visions of the Future, Thrawn wanted order, stability and strength for whatever purpose that he saw he could get from the Emperor's New Order as opposed to the New Republic or Rebellion.

Also Thrawn's sleeper cells that he planted all over the galaxy. Men who would be willing to rise up and die for their homes regardless of their allegiances. At first they thought Thrawn had miscalculated Fel's genetic line, but later we're told Thrawn purposefully selected them because of that particular trait. That doesn't sound like a megalomaniac to me.

Isard was a traitor herself; she was afraid Palpatine would execute her for incompetence.

As far as any of them were concerned, they had nothing to fear from a dead Palpatine, so the legalese and old ways of loyalty were gone. Isard only cared about Isard, and keeping a man who outranked all of the officers in her navy away was advantageous.

Perhaps you'll peek at the example of Fel. Soontir Fel was most definitely a traitor; he defected to the Rebellion.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Isard was a traitor herself; she was afraid Palpatine would execute her for incompetence.

As far as any of them were concerned, they had nothing to fear from a dead Palpatine, so the legalese and old ways of loyalty were gone. Isard only cared about Isard, and keeping a man who outranked all of the officers in her navy away was advantageous.

Perhaps you'll peek at the example of Fel. Soontir Fel was most definitely a traitor; he defected to the Rebellion.

But if all of them believed Palpatine dead, how could any of them be traitors? At least Thrawn was trying to create an Empire through other means that pure brutality. As for the whole racism part, eh, the whole Empire was racist.. rather take the lesser of the two evils. Thrawn so far has only killed one surly incompetent tech.. and promotes and takes into his confidence humans galore.

Fel defected after Palpatine's fall, didn't he? He hated Isard's policies.. but then Thrawn brought him back into a job he felt proud enough to do to put back on the uniform he turned his back on.

But this is pointless Thrawn bickering. We each have our own tastes. In regards to the OP question: Thrawn, because I'd have a much greater chance of staying alive and getting promoted.

For giving lip to the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces? I would have shot the little shit on the spot. There are some things that are not done in any military. In the U.S. today, with all of the overly nice bullshit that's infesting the military, that would be good for a court-martial and a few years in prison.

And the U.S. President is the Supreme Commander of the armed forces, that's kind of what "Commander in Chief" means.

FTeik wrote:
Proof, that Parck was contacted by Palpatine to help in retaking the galaxy. Proof, that Parck ignored that call, IF it was done.

Essential Chronology said all of the Empire was reunited under Palpatine; therefore either Parck was a defector and not an Imperial, or he was impersonating an Imperial officer.

All of the empire? Wouldn´t that also include the imperial holdings in the UR? Because Palpatine must have known about them and he would have viewed them as his domain. Thank you.

FTeik wrote:
Now we are faking naivitee, ehh. It makes clear, what kind of people Palpatine used to govern his empire.

What difference does it make? We all know the Court is a bunch of lickspiddle assholes. Palpatine is Machiavellian, so what?

It seems to make a huge difference to you, since you seem to go berserk everytime someone argues for or about Parck´s loyality, when there are so many other examples of persons, who did the same or were a lot worse.

Parck and his guys were not Imperials. I don't understand why you just can't grasp this.

Since, according to you, the empire was finally dead with the death of the ImperialCouncilChairman Xandel Carvius Parck and his guys couldn´t be imperials at the time of HoT. What was before, we don´t know.

Examples? How about Fteik's "Han Solo fucked up once, therefore we can trust him about nothing." You're just a dumbfuck.

Dumbfuck yourself. My point is, that there isn´t enough clear evidence, to say with 100% certainity that something is like this or that, when there are other possibilities. To stay with the Han Solo-example from RotJ: "There are many commandships." Now does this mean, that the empire really has a lot of Executor-like Commandships or was Han simply trying to calm down Luke Skywalker?

I've spanked you in this Thrawn argument several times, so I'm rather irritated dealing with it again.

Well, i didn´t feel it like spanking and when you´re irritated, that is not my problem.

And concerning this Thrawn-argument, at the time of HoT Parck and his fellows CAN`T be traitors to the empire, since the empire is dead according to you and you have NO proof, that they were traitors and didn´t follow their orders at the time of DE. Perhaps you are irritated because of that.

Capturing Skywalker was much more important than the organic communicator.

Why? Why is the capture (the capture, not the killing) of one half-trained Jedi more important, than the ability to coordinate your forces over large parts of the galaxy? The empire had already sucessfully destroyed almost every other Jedi around.

He was to replace Vader or Palpatine, depending on who won, which is of intimate consideration to the Empire, which is a Sith theocracy.

Right (sarcasm). That´s why Palpatine sent Mara Jade to Tattooine to assassinate Skywalker. Or why didn´t he replace Vader with one of those darksider-goons from Byss?

FTeik wrote:All of the empire? Wouldn´t that also include the imperial holdings in the UR? Because Palpatine must have known about them and he would have viewed them as his domain. Thank you.

No because the holdings in the UR are not part of the Empire; they've declared themselves distinct from the Galactic Empire; they admit the similarity is only for psychological value; they wear different uniforms; they call themselves the "Empire of the Hand," and are sworn to "uphold the ideals espoused by Grand Admiral Thrawn" to quote General Fel.

In fact, all we ever know these territories is as the Empire of the Hand; your assumption they were ever aligned with Palpatine and unlike even the most petty warlord, got special leave to remain out there, commanded by such cream as a former defector to the Rebellion and aliens, is unfounded.

You have no data to support your conclusion. I have the fact they admit that they use similarities between themselves and the Empire for the psychological value only, that they're dedicated to Thrawn, not the Empire or Palpatine, and that they call themselves by another name, marking them as a distinct state.

And there's the fact that Palpatine had Thrawn eliminated, which runs counter to the fact he was in cahoots with Thrawn's plots.

FTeik wrote:It seems to make a huge difference to you, since you seem to go berserk everytime someone argues for or about Parck´s loyality, when there are so many other examples of persons, who did the same or were a lot worse.

Who cares about them? The point at hand is that you are not debating rationally, and bring up a bunch of idiots and assholes who also rebelled; well that's fine--they returned when Palpatine revealed himself; Parck and the EoH did not; and he killed Thrawn.

What do you expect me to gather from that?

FTeik wrote:Parck and his guys couldn´t be imperials at the time of HoT. What was before, we don´t know.

The Hand of Thrawn was constructed prior to Thrawn return to the Known Regions; the Empire of the Hand was operating with officers who had defected to the Rebellion and did not return to Imperial service like everyone else down to the most petty warlord did, and their founder was eliminated by the Emperor.

You do the math.

FTeik wrote:To stay with the Han Solo-example from RotJ: "There are many commandships." Now does this mean, that the empire really has a lot of Executor-like Commandships or was Han simply trying to calm down Luke Skywalker?

You're the one introducing psychoanalysis into this. An epistemological concept called credulence says we take statements at face value without a good reason to do otherwise; you're inventing random possibilities to remove the meaning of statements without a compelling reason to do so.

FTeik wrote:Well, i didn´t feel it like spanking and when you´re irritated, that is not my problem.

Funny the Mods felt no problem attaching pejorative titles to the links to the endless threads, hm?

FTeik wrote:And concerning this Thrawn-argument, at the time of HoT Parck and his fellows CAN`T be traitors to the empire, since the empire is dead according to you and you have NO proof, that they were traitors and didn´t follow their orders at the time of DE. Perhaps you are irritated because of that.

Now now, I don't think our relationship has progressed enough for me to lay down on the couch and tell you how my father beat me, so I think we can put down the psychoanalysis, aye chap?

FTeik wrote:Why? Why is the capture (the capture, not the killing) of one half-trained Jedi more important, than the ability to coordinate your forces over large parts of the galaxy? The empire had already sucessfully destroyed almost every other Jedi around.

1. The Empire is predicated on the rule of the Sith; there can be only two. The Empire exists as an extension of and to serve the goals of the Sith; it has no intrinsic purpose outside of that.

2. As the Son of Skywalker, Luke represents the best candidate to fulfill the job as part of the Sith "theocracy of two" (as a Grand Moff put it), and also the best hope for continuing the perpetual reign of the Galactic Emperor.

FTeik wrote:Right (sarcasm).

Gee golly! What would I do without FTeik's helping hand?

FTeik wrote:That´s why Palpatine sent Mara Jade to Tattooine to assassinate Skywalker.

That was to test him; the entire conflict at Endor was contrived to turn Luke to the Dark Side of the Force. It was the sole reason the Galactic Emperor came out of hiding; it was the sole reason his body died there.

FTeik wrote:Or why didn´t he replace Vader with one of those darksider-goons from Byss?

Because they were all shit.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:1. The Empire is predicated on the rule of the Sith; there can be only two. The Empire exists as an extension of and to serve the goals of the Sith; it has no intrinsic purpose outside of that.

2. As the Son of Skywalker, Luke represents the best candidate to fulfill the job as part of the Sith "theocracy of two" (as a Grand Moff put it), and also the best hope for continuing the perpetual reign of the Galactic Emperor.

I think this is why the Empire failed, too. Palpatine, as "foreseeing" as he was, ended up being too shortsighted to realize that the Sith organizational structure doesn't work on a Galactic level against military forces. I mean, shit, if the clonetroopers are the primary architects of the destruction of the Jedi, and there are even more stormtroopers by the time ANH/ESB/ROJ roll around, the threat posed by a single Jedi is so small as to be irrelevant. Palpatine's misplaced desire to adhere to the dictates of the Sith "code," however, placed undue importance on Skywalker, and as a result he got ass-raped.

Sorry to go OT here, but this is really what stood out to me when reading your post, and I was kind of curious to hear your (and others') reaction(s) and thoughts.

Palpatine designed the Empire to self-destruct without his leadership.

Indeed; the obsession with the Skywalkers is what destroyed Palpatine.

He had to possess the Chosen One, and then, he had to control his more powerful Son.

This came back and bitchslapped him when he returned too.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Palpatine designed the Empire to self-destruct without his leadership.

Alas, too true.

IP wrote:...bitchslapped him when returned too

Does this refer to Dark Empire? I've never had occasion to read either of the DE series, so I'm almost totally unfamiliar with what transpires within, beyond a cursory summary of general events.

It was a good thing, as everyone else turned it into a mockery of it's former Glory.

McC wrote:Does this refer to Dark Empire? I've never had occasion to read either of the DE series, so I'm almost totally unfamiliar with what transpires within, beyond a cursory summary of general events.

This is problematic; it is quite possibly the most important period of post-ROTJ EU.

Here is Publius' condensation of Operation SHADOW HAND; following the Imperial Coalition (the six warlords in cahoots with what was left of Thrawn's Empire) retaking Coruscant and several of the Core Worlds, and the subsequent infighting taking place between those factions before the Emperor formally revealed himself and re-incorporated all of those factions into the Empire which then launched assaults on Calamari and other worlds.

Publius wrote:Incidentally, I mentioned earlier the spectacular success of Operation Shadow Hand. Let me show you the proofs.

With the multiple shifts of power over the years, the front lines have shifted many times. Currently, the New Republic has a stable hold on many of the worlds in the Expansion Region, the Colonies Region and several other key regions of the galaxy. It also has control of many less vital regions (less vital in that they are not key to the overall strategy of maintaining control of the galaxy; many of these regions do make substantial contributions of raw materials, soldiers and other important supplies. Unable to hold onto Coruscant, the Rebel Alliance has made strategic withdrawals to their current command base in the Da Soocha system.

The Empire has regained the Core Worlds, and still holds the Deep Galactic Core, as well as many high industry regions beyond the Core Worlds. It seemed that the Imperial Coalition was dispersed -- while it held Coruscant, the former capital wasn't used as the prime base of operations.

The Empire supplies its fleets from power bases in the Mid-Rim and the reclaimed Inner Rim, where the industrial planets depend on wartime economies to survive. However, the most significant Imperial victory occurred when the Empire retook the Core Worlds, linking Imperial holdings all the way to Wild Space. Once control of these vital planets was ensured, the Empire began bulwarking them against further attack.

-- Dark Empire Sourcebook, p. 73

Notice that the Empire holds the Deep Core, the Core, the Inner Rim, the Mid-Rim, and parts of Wild Space. The New Republic held the Expansion Region, the Colonies, and (presumably) the Outer Rim.

Also, keep in mind the following:

Militarily, we [the New Republic] still hold the winning hand and mostly likely they [the Empire] realize this. Therefore, it is likely they will bide their time, sounding us out for weaknesses.

-- Brig. Colin Darkmere, Intelligence Operations Command, in a Top Secret Intelligence memo to the Provisional Council, Dark Empire Sourcebook, p. 114

Now, the DESB is set immediately after Dark Empire.

Again the Rebel triumph was to be short-lived. Palpatine had anticipated even this worst-case scenario and had hidden one of hte clones in a secret location on Byss, though it would take time for him to reach it. His loyal forces already had a plan to execute -- Operation Shadow Hand, designed to subjugate the galaxy in a series of unstoppable wave assaults. Palpatine's military executor, Sedriss, led the operation, assisted by seven of the Emperor's most skilled dark side adepts, a group he called his Dark Jedi.

Executor Sedriss consolidated the forces remaining in the newly subjugated Core and Colonies regions. First, he targeted the weapons factories on Balmorra. [...]

-- The Essential Chronology, p. 94

Notice that between the DESB and the beginning of DE2, the Empire has already seized the Colonies, which are between the Core Worlds and the Inner Rim, despite the fact that the New Republic's intelligence says it has superior forces. Obviously the Empire does not have total control of each region, as the Republic's territory is still contiguous, the fact remains that the Empire dominates the Deep Core, Core Worlds, Colonies, Inner Rim, Mid Rim, and parts of Wild Space -- the majority of the galaxy.

Realizing the seriousness of this new threat, New Republic commando and sabotage teams attacked the Galaxy Gun, but were unable to destroy it. The Emperor continued to launch his deadly projectiles, destroying unruly worlds and bringing hte resistance to its knees. Within a short time, Palpatine regained key territories in the Inner and Outer Rim. The future of the New Republic looked bleak.

-- The Essential Chronology, p. 95

The preceding information was set between DE2 and EE. By that time, the Empire has consolidated its hold on the Inner Rim (obviously the NR had maintained control of parts of it, because the attack on Calamari was intended to cut the NR in half, proving that it must have had some holdings remaining in the Inner Rim, connecting the Colonies to the Expansion Region), and is taking control of the Outer Rim.

Theoretically, that would leave the NR with only the Expansion Region, but consider the evidence. The NR was hiding in deep space in EE, not trying to defend any worlds. It is highly unlikely that the Empire would move to take the Outer Rim while leaving the Expansion Region in NR hands -- that would be stupid, as it would leave the Empire's holdings in the Mid Rim and Inner Rim exposed to attack from the Expansion Region (between the two). Remember, the Empire actually had less warmaking capacity than the NR.

The fact of the matter is, the Empire probably did seize the Expansion Region. Let's not forget, Bilbringi is right on the border of the Expansion Region. The Empire would still have fresh interests in that area.

So, let's consider the effectiveness of Operation Shadow Hand. Between DE and EE, the Empire had definitely seized control of the Colonies, and taken key territories in the Outer Rim and what remained in the NR's hands in the Inner Rim. It is probable that the Empire took the Expansion Region, and we know for a fact that territories were falling into line when the Emperor died. In other words, what wasn't already under Imperial control was surrendering. The NR was reduced to a stateless fleet, and all this by an Empire that had lacked the upper hand, according to the NR's own intelligence.

Wait a minute, IP. Palpatine had Thrawn eliminated? I thought it was Ruhk that killed Thrawn?

The Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:When his servant, Thrawn, made his claim, Palpatine could only watch in sadness. He had hoped Thrawn would know better. It was heartening to see how effectively Thrawn dealt with the cruel hand fate had dealt him. A lesser person would have despaired. But a lesser person would have never been chosen as a Grand Admiral by Palpatine in the first place.

Still, no contender could ever be allowed to become too powerful. It was no accident when Thrawn fell. Palpatine never knew if Thrawn guessed that he was being used to divert attention from his own return.

(emphases mine)

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

The Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:When his servant, Thrawn, made his claim, Palpatine could only watch in sadness. He had hoped Thrawn would know better. It was heartening to see how effectively Thrawn dealt with the cruel hand fate had dealt him. A lesser person would have despaired. But a lesser person would have never been chosen as a Grand Admiral by Palpatine in the first place.

Still, no contender could ever be allowed to become too powerful. It was no accident when Thrawn fell. Palpatine never knew if Thrawn guessed that he was being used to divert attention from his own return.

(emphases mine)

Oh, I see.. interesting stuff.. but strange.

Thrawn made his move when he thought Palpatine dead and was sufficiently prepared to move. The source says, "He had hoped Thrawn would know better." What does this mean? That Thrawn should have known the Emperor could transfer his soul?

Though it does show that Palpatine did like Thrawn and Thrawn performed amazingly well. He was sad that Thrawn was the one who would have to fall to make way for his return (but I guess that's what clones are for).

Is there more?

Thrawn had more than one Star Destroyer in the Unknown Regions. See TIE Fighter. Perhaps he was sent out there with one, but more were sent to him.

Doesn´t matter how much Thrawn got from Palpatine. At the time of HoT nothing of this seems to be there anymore.

FTeik wrote:Doesn´t matter how much Thrawn got from Palpatine. At the time of HoT nothing of this seems to be there anymore.

Because he took the Imperial hardware back with him when he returned.