The Kernel wrote:A potential war zone with no US around to keep the peace isn't the sort of stability most of these companies want.
I was unaware of our current presence in said potential war zone.
While not 100% indorsing the Kernel's view, are you trying to say that a complete US 180 on Isarel won't have some major influence on how Israel is viewed and treated in the wider world?
I think you need to familiarise yourself how many times the US has used its veto in the UN stopping resolutions passing against Israel. From memory 35 of the 70 odd vetos were used to shield Israel.
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Please, UN resolutions are worthless. I've got pieces of UN resolutions in my freakin' stool.
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Joe wrote:Please, UN resolutions are worthless. I've got pieces of UN resolutions in my freakin' stool.
Yes that's why UN resolutions stopped the WMD armarment in Iraq ... because they are 'useless' ...
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
Joe wrote:Please, UN resolutions are worthless. I've got pieces of UN resolutions in my freakin' stool.
Yes that's why UN resolutions stopped the WMD armarment in Iraq ... because they are 'useless' ...
I actually agree with Joe, here. UN Resolutions have not been historically followed, in large part because the structure of the UN is so fucked up. Countries like Israel, that have what I would declare "significant" protection from a permanent member of the Security Council, are essentially allowed to ignore the UN with the knowledge that their protector will veto any measures against them, while the General Assembly has practically no actual say in the manner since any one of five countries can immediately throw out anything they attempt to do.
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Joe wrote:Please, UN resolutions are worthless. I've got pieces of UN resolutions in my freakin' stool.
Yes that's why UN resolutions stopped the WMD armarment in Iraq ... because they are 'useless' ...
I actually agree with Joe, here. UN Resolutions have not been historically followed, in large part because the structure of the UN is so fucked up. Countries like Israel, that have what I would declare "significant" protection from a permanent member of the Security Council, are essentially allowed to ignore the UN with the knowledge that their protector will veto any measures against them, while the General Assembly has practically no actual say in the manner since any one of five countries can immediately throw out anything they attempt to do.
Ahh Ossus, the debate was about if America withdrew its support of Israel, so Israel would be one of the 'lesser' countries in the General Assembly without a permenant Security Council big brother to watch out for them.
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
Crown wrote: Ahh Ossus, the debate was about if America withdrew its support of Israel, so Israel would be one of the 'lesser' countries in the General Assembly without a permenant Security Council big brother to watch out for them.
Right, I agree. However, I also agreed with Joe as to the particular sub-discussion regarding the effectiveness of UN Resolutions. They have not been shown to be effective, in the past.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
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"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
Crown wrote: Ahh Ossus, the debate was about if America withdrew its support of Israel, so Israel would be one of the 'lesser' countries in the General Assembly without a permenant Security Council big brother to watch out for them.
Right, I agree. However, I also agreed with Joe as to the particular sub-discussion regarding the effectiveness of UN Resolutions. They have not been shown to be effective, in the past.
But we are discussing the political an monetary fallout should Israel ever be subjected to the harsh reality of not having the US as its patron. Are you saying that it wouldn't matter?
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
Joe wrote:
I was unaware of our current presence in said potential war zone.
I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly. In any case, the US could exert enough influence so that foreign companies would be leaving wholesale, and trade sanctions against Israeli exports would completely destroy their economy.
I'm not suggesting any of this is feasible you understand, but I was replying to a comment that implied that Israel is immune to outside pressures which it certainly is not.
Crown wrote: Ahh Ossus, the debate was about if America withdrew its support of Israel, so Israel would be one of the 'lesser' countries in the General Assembly without a permenant Security Council big brother to watch out for them.
Right, I agree. However, I also agreed with Joe as to the particular sub-discussion regarding the effectiveness of UN Resolutions. They have not been shown to be effective, in the past.
How many of these failed resolutions have had US support?
If Israel actually had an enemy that was competent to destroy them, sure they would need U.S. support. But alas, their enemies are Arabs.
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I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
Crown wrote:But we are discussing the political an monetary fallout should Israel ever be subjected to the harsh reality of not having the US as its patron. Are you saying that it wouldn't matter?
No, of course not. However, I think that if the US were to withdraw its support for Israel within the UN (ie. all those resolutions passed, instead of being vetoed), while for some strange reason continuing its other forms of support for Israel, then there would be only minor differences with regards to the current situation. I don't think that the UN resolutions would have accomplished much, even if they had gone through. While I agree that a withdrawal of monetary, military, and political support from the US would damage Israel and probably force fairly rapid changes within the region, I don't think that the US's support for Israel within the UN is a particularly note-worthy or important aspect of that support, in large part because the UN is so toothless.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly. In any case, the US could exert enough influence so that foreign companies would be leaving wholesale, and trade sanctions against Israeli exports would completely destroy their economy.
Why would the U.S. want to do such a thing? We don't have anything in particular to gain by screwing over Israel in addition to withdrawing our support of them. We certainly don't have the same security goals as her enemies, probably never will.
BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman
I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
Crown wrote: Ahh Ossus, the debate was about if America withdrew its support of Israel, so Israel would be one of the 'lesser' countries in the General Assembly without a permenant Security Council big brother to watch out for them.
Right, I agree. However, I also agreed with Joe as to the particular sub-discussion regarding the effectiveness of UN Resolutions. They have not been shown to be effective, in the past.
How many of these failed resolutions have had US support?
All of them. The US has always been a permanent member of the Security Council, and the passage of a resolution from the UN therefore means that the US didn't feel strongly enough about it to veto it. This indicates at least NOMINAL support for the resolutions. In many cases, the US has actually helped to draft and spearhead resolutions which passed through both the General Assembly and the Security Council, which obviously indicates deeper involvement.
Last edited by Master of Ossus on 2004-03-23 01:17am, edited 1 time in total.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
I think the entire idea of having U.S. support withdrawn is a good one. Withdrawl it completely, no carrots, no concessions, nothing. That's what the Arabs want in some way. I don't know of another way to so completely screw people over than giving them exactly what they want.
The only question is whether or not the Europeans would then in turn support Israel at some point, after all, it's a play on influence. The contrarian view on this is actually a pretty good one, let the Arabs and the Israelis slaughter each other. The bottom line is why should anyone care if the primary parties involved don't really give a rats ass. The only difference in all of this is oil, if this was in middle of nowhere Africa, let's face it, most people wouldn't care less.
Holy fuck, THREE MISSILES for one guy in a wheelchair? Haven't they heard of sniper rifles over there?
"Brian, if I parked a supertanker in Central Park, painted it neon orange, and set it on fire, it would be less obvious than your stupidity." --RedImperator
What exactly would you call them then? They are in Israeli occupied territory which makes them defacto citizens.
International law also makes it incumbent on the occupying power to bear responsbility for the well-being of the people in the territory it is occupying. Either way, the ball is in Israel's court.
I have a picture of a smoking wheelchair and a turban being all that is left, seems like a monty python sketch. The only way that could have made it better would be to chase him down with a 30 ton steam roller and flatten him. That would have been classic
Lord Poe wrote:Holy fuck, THREE MISSILES for one guy in a wheelchair? Haven't they heard of sniper rifles over there?
Heh heh ... good question.
Maybe i'm missing something, but how will Israel get snipers into position into a hostile city without the Shiek hearing about it and getting under cover?
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Ace Pace wrote:
Maybe i'm missing something, but how will Israel get snipers into position into a hostile city without the Shiek hearing about it and getting under cover?
I have a picture of a smoking wheelchair and a turban being all that is left, seems like a monty python sketch. The only way that could have made it better would be to chase him down with a 30 ton steam roller and flatten him. That would have been classic
I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.