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Pitty we never got to see that.

Was that ever featured in an episode?

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Was that ever featured in an episode?

Nope. The E-Bay sales of it claimed it was made for Trek but never used. For all we know it could even be from the TOS movie era. Actualy thats very likely. Colonel West was in ST6. Thats definately not navy.

Praxis wrote:Maybe because we couldn't FIND the target?
Federation sensors could likely pinpoint Bin Laden's location, then nuke him, if it were in modern day Earth.

Don't be absurd. Federation sensors are nearly as pitiful as their transporters.

Just scan for life forms in mountains...all hidden bases show up...fire phasers!

Wow. What a great plan for winning the peace. Vaporize every poor little mountaineering expedition that was raising money for cancer patients along with the terrorists.

The reality is, modern day armies can't AFFORD the kind of money they'd need to fire one missle at every cluster of soldier in the enemy army. That'd take millions of missles. Trillions of dollars.

Are you seriously suggesting that bin Laden has millions of clusters of soldiers?

Moreover, a missile is unnecessary for anti-personnel work. A bomber or a strike aircraft could easily kill hordes of AK-wielding terrorists.

With phasers, on the other hand, the ship can just start melting enemy lines indiscriminantly. They can't hide, just run.

The Federation still needs a ground force, but not neccessarily an army.

Yeah. For whatever reason, their "fifteen divisions" worked pretty well against a Cardassian order.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Praxis wrote:Maybe because we couldn't FIND the target?
Federation sensors could likely pinpoint Bin Laden's location, then nuke him, if it were in modern day Earth.

Don't be absurd. Federation sensors are nearly as pitiful as their transporters.

They're at least good enough to pick up life-forms from orbit...

Just scan for life forms in mountains...all hidden bases show up...fire phasers!

Wow. What a great plan for winning the peace. Vaporize every poor little mountaineering expedition that was raising money for cancer patients along with the terrorists.

What mountaineering expedition would go in a war zone?
And isn't it worth the risk, to win the war?

The reality is, modern day armies can't AFFORD the kind of money they'd need to fire one missle at every cluster of soldier in the enemy army. That'd take millions of missles. Trillions of dollars.

Are you seriously suggesting that bin Laden has millions of clusters of soldiers?

No, but a normal army does.
Bin Laden keeps his hidden, so the modern-day US can't find them to hit them.

Moreover, a missile is unnecessary for anti-personnel work. A bomber or a strike aircraft could easily kill hordes of AK-wielding terrorists.

And orbital phaser bombardment can't...why?

Master of Ossus wrote:

Just scan for life forms in mountains...all hidden bases show up...fire phasers!

Wow. What a great plan for winning the peace. Vaporize every poor little mountaineering expedition that was raising money for cancer patients along with the terrorists.

Not to mention every mountain goat, ect. What a waste of amunition. Besides the Federation scanning through rock is not perfect either. You have no idea how hard determining what life forms in the moauntains are terrorists and what are harmless, or even worse a shepherd with her sheep, ect. Air power is nice but what if that enemy is using sensor jamming dampening, ect? Do you nuke the entire mountan to find it?

However, Federation sensors DO distinguish between Klingon, Borg, Cardassian, and Human crew when scanning ships or planets. So you could easily tell who is who.

Praxis wrote:However, Federation sensors DO distinguish between Klingon, Borg, Cardassian, and Human crew when scanning ships or planets. So you could easily tell who is who.

They can tell age (within a range, infant, middle aged etc) and gender from orbit, but they could only tell the species of a fellow 2 KM underground.

Oh puh-lease, not Trekkie sensor-wanking. It's also canon that these sensors are effortlessly fooled. Or did an entire Rom/Card battlefleet thinking a fucking deserted planet held billions of living beings escape your attention?

For the umpteenth time, it is imbecile thinking to assume that the enemy does not employ countermeasures against your technology.

Some times its easier to fool your enemy when you show them what they are expecting to see. Garak appeared to figure out what was wrong on the planet fairly quickly and his statement seemed to indicate a possible sensor detection. The reason the fleet didn't register the problem in the first place is they quite simply didn't think it was a possibility.

Anyway thats just one way to look at things. Sensors aren't fooled that easily or else these sensor tricks would be used very frequently. While we have seen sensors fooled or loose capability before, its not so common that it appears to be useful in most combat situations.

Yeah, but you don't need to perfectly fool them to defeat Praxis's little plan. All you need to do is throw up enough jamming so that they can't pinpoint where you are accurately enough for a phaser strike. And his whole plan goes to shit anyway if the insurgents take cover among the population in the cities, or disperse into the countryside, instead of gathering in camps out in the middle of nowhere.

Alyeska wrote:Anyway thats just one way to look at things. Sensors aren't fooled that easily or else these sensor tricks would be used very frequently. While we have seen sensors fooled or loose capability before, its not so common that it appears to be useful in most combat situations.

How about "Peak Performance", an episide that was testing combat scenarios, when Worf fooled the E-D's sensors?

What about "The Hunted", where Roga Danar foiled the E-D's sensors by parking in polar orbit of a planet?

Lord Poe wrote:How about "Peak Performance", an episide that was testing combat scenarios, when Worf fooled the E-D's sensors?

Worf did a little more then fool the sensors. He hacked into the ship using his security clearance.

What about "The Hunted", where Roga Danar foiled the E-D's sensors by parking in polar orbit of a planet?

What irritates me about this isn't that they fooled the sensors. Its that they could actualy scan to detect it BUT THATS NOT STANDARD for the computer to set the sensors. Thats not bad sensors, just idiot programing of the computer systems. Same result, different cause.

RedImperator wrote:Yeah, but you don't need to perfectly fool them to defeat Praxis's little plan. All you need to do is throw up enough jamming so that they can't pinpoint where you are accurately enough for a phaser strike. And his whole plan goes to shit anyway if the insurgents take cover among the population in the cities, or disperse into the countryside, instead of gathering in camps out in the middle of nowhere.

His plans are usable in Total War where you do not care about the civilian population of the enemy and when his resources are not your ultimate goal. Though unless you are an extremely controlling of your own populaton, such tactics will quickly backfire in the public.

Alyeska wrote:Worf did a little more then fool the sensors. He hacked into the ship using his security clearance.

What irritates me about this isn't that they fooled the sensors. Its that they could actualy scan to detect it BUT THATS NOT STANDARD for the computer to set the sensors. Thats not bad sensors, just idiot programing of the computer systems. Same result, different cause.

Again, both these scenarios speak to what Mike brought up; a competent enemy will know how to counter your tech, like Worf and Danar.

A competent enemy isn't going to have the security access codes like Worf.

Dare I ask, exactly what does Prozac propose to do after he stuns every defender on a planet?

Darth Wong wrote:Oh puh-lease, not Trekkie sensor-wanking. It's also canon that these sensors are effortlessly fooled. Or did an entire Rom/Card battlefleet thinking a fucking deserted planet held billions of living beings escape your attention?

For the umpteenth time, it is imbecile thinking to assume that the enemy does not employ countermeasures against your technology.

Oh of course, I know Trek sensors aren't invulnerable. In fact, they're usually pathetic. They can be easily fooled. But against a planet that is NOT filled with sensor jammers, and no 'exotic ores', they're not too bad at picking up stuff.

Sure, the sensors are easily fooled, but if they're not being fooled by something, they're pretty good at picking up life forms and their locations.

Though you're probably right about how easily they can be jammed (I've seen enough ST to know that, certainly), it still doesn't prevent bombardment. Cause enough chaos, start beaming security forces all over the planet in key positions...

Of course, anyone with a planetary shield, or even a powerful energy field that a ship can pass through but transporters can't, plus a handy jammer, can prevent this. However, planetary shields don't seem to be used in Trek

Alyeska wrote:A competent enemy isn't going to have the security access codes like Worf.

He had access codes to the Ferengi warship's computer system? Do tell.

Alpha-quadrant computer security is a joke. This has been well-established before.

Praxis wrote:Oh of course, I know Trek sensors aren't invulnerable. In fact, they're usually pathetic. They can be easily fooled. But against a planet that is NOT filled with sensor jammers, and no 'exotic ores', they're not too bad at picking up stuff.

In other words, the tactics being promoted here only work when A) the terrain is suitable and B) the enemy is technologically inferior. One does not win wars by relying on tactics that require such conditions, pal.

Sure, the sensors are easily fooled, but if they're not being fooled by something, they're pretty good at picking up life forms and their locations.

Translation: if the enemy does nothing about our tactics, we can win.

Though you're probably right about how easily they can be jammed (I've seen enough ST to know that, certainly), it still doesn't prevent bombardment. Cause enough chaos, start beaming security forces all over the planet in key positions...

Ah yes, the "bombardment will make it a cakewalk" theory. Hate to break it to you, but that's been tried before, and with less than stellar results.

Of course, anyone with a planetary shield, or even a powerful energy field that a ship can pass through but transporters can't, plus a handy jammer, can prevent this. However, planetary shields don't seem to be used in Trek

You need to purchase some history books. Tarawa didn't have shields either. It was massively bombarded. The defenders still shredded thousands of soldiers attempting to storm the beach.

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote:A competent enemy isn't going to have the security access codes like Worf.

He had access codes to the Ferengi warship's computer system? Do tell.

Alpha-quadrant computer security is a joke. This has been well-established before.

I was under the impression that Ferengi sensors just suck. What I thought happened was that Riker and Co. warped away a second before the torpedo detonated and the Ferengi senors picked up that very same ship but all they could tell was that it was a Federation starship.

Praxis wrote:Not necessarily mass stun, but in 'A Matter of Time' we see the Enterprise is capable of making pinpoint strikes and some rather large craters on the planets surface.

Easily enough to melt a bunker, or transport inhibitor, or group of enemies, from orbit.

So whats your point.?I'm not talking about destroying structures or formations of enemies and I've concided that stunning some people from orbit might be possible. The point I was trying to make is that I'dont think its logical to assume that Fed starships can stun (for example) everyone on a continent, regardless of what cover might be avalible. This seems to be what Prozac is basing his plan on, that and being able to transport millions of individuals at a time despite the fact we never see this done (as Mike pointed out).

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote:A competent enemy isn't going to have the security access codes like Worf.

He had access codes to the Ferengi warship's computer system? Do tell.

Alpha-quadrant computer security is a joke. This has been well-established before.

I was under the impression that Ferengi sensors just suck. What I thought happened was that Riker and Co. warped away a second before the torpedo detonated and the Ferengi senors picked up that very same ship but all they could tell was that it was a Federation starship.

I'm talking about the imaginary reinforcements that they detected approaching their position, thus forcing them to flee.

Howedar wrote:Dare I ask, exactly what does Prozac propose to do after he stuns every defender on a planet?

its all here......

Prozac the Robert wrote:
Step 1, stun everything, transport civilians somewhere where they aren't going to get blown up.
Step 2, blow up anything that inhibits transporters, repeat step 1.
Step 3, then send men down. In the area your troops are in, use stun beams as required. Keep stunning everywhere else to prevent enemy from concentrating forces.

Let us run a thought experiment on Prozac's brilliant strategy. Here's the scenario: the capital city of Betazed has been captured by enemy forces. The civilian population of the city is approximately 15 million, and there are approximately 100,000 enemy troops in the city who have garrisoned the various buildings and prepared their defenses.

Prozac's ship shows up. His opening gambit is wide-beam stun. Naturally, he assumes that a wide-beam stun must have unlimited width, while providing no evidence of such capability. Let us go with this braindead assumption and assume that they can stun the entire city. Net result: millions of Betazed civilians are stunned into unconsciousness in the streets, while millions more see the event from inside buildings. Mass panic ensues. Enemy losses during this operation are minimal since they kept out of sight, expecting orbital bombardment. Since stun beams cause low-level neurological damage and the beam afflicts both young and old, sick and healthy, expect thousands or tens of thousands of civilian casualties from this operation.

Now for Prozac's step 2: beam out all the civilians into some remote wilderness area. Based on the figures from "Descent Part 2", this will take approximately 6 months, during which most of the civilians will no doubt starve to death unless the ship has the facilities to beam down foodstuffs for millions of displaced civilians.

Time for Prozac's step 3: bombard anything that can inhibit transporters. Naturally, the defenders put all such equipment inside buildings. Net result of this operation: most of Betazed's capital city is destroyed. Most of the buildings are blown apart with orbital bombardment, and the city is in ruins. Those defenders who found natural ores or dense-metal structures or deposits to protect themselves are still immune to transport.

And now for Prozac's step 4: beam men down now that the transport inhibitors have been destroyed. Of course, what they don't realize is that not all transport countermeasures are always-on inhibitors. The first wave is caught by a tractor beam (see "Attached") and redirected into the vacuum of space. First wave suffers 100% casualties.

Step 4 redux: they destroy the site from which the tractor beam originated and repeat the operation. A different site does the same thing. Second wave suffers 100% casualties. Given the dense presence of technology on the planet's surface, it is impossible to locate and destroy everything which might be a transporter, and defenders have naturally gravitated to regions which are difficult to penetrate with sensors.

Step 5: change of plan. They go down in "hoppers" to avoid lethal transport countermeasures. Due to their total lack of a conventional ground army (which Prozac deems unnecessary) they suffer horrible casualties. For every defender they kill, they lose many men of their own. But they eventually prevail.

Net result of Prozac's genius scheme: most of the capital city destroyed, most of its population dead, massive casualties among their landing forces.