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Posted: 2004-11-05 12:16pm
by Kazuaki Shimazaki
Graeme Dice wrote:Yes. That's correct.
Very well. At least that would be consistent. You believe principles are more important than lives. Attempting to "maintain control over them", by the way, is just the negative phrasing of the "order-keeping" effort.
You've also still not provided any reasoning why your made up trillions number is fewer casualties than how many would have died when the VOng showed up under the Empire.
365 trillion is AFAIK the official death count. I don't have the book, but it is supposed to be in The Unifying Force (the last book of the NJO series, which would tally such things). Which is quite reasonable considering how far the Vong was allowed to enter - Core Worlds and all. It might even be an underestimate.

See the TIMETALES record. I really doubt it'd lie on this kind of number.

While of course, no one can be 100.0000% sure of what would happen to the war if the Empire was running strong, it is just about impossible to have run the war effort less competently than the NR.

I'd try and put my logic in a few paragraphs:
1) The Vong have a few cute tricks, but do not have a massive general tech superiority. So strategically, the war is generally about Fleet Strengths and Resource Mobilization.
2) The Empire has more ships patrolling one Sector than the NR and IR together could assemble in three books (in which the Vong captured everything in a beeline to Ithor.
3) There is a huge strategic fleet at Byss (Dark Empire), and of course the numerous superweapons. The NR's idea of a strategic Fleet is an understrength Sector Group (I think CTD, but here's a website for your appetite).
4) The Empire can mobilize enough to station a Sector Group in just about all the Sectors, build Death Stars in months ... etc. The NR are struggling just to get a few more Star Destroyers (SbS and Bilbringi). Three Star Destroyers are actually still critical to the war effort (P.151 SbS), and Bilbringi is forced to build mostly small warships (P.105).
5) The Empire is less vulnerable to people with weak stomachs. The farce with the hostage ships is just shameful.
6) In short, the Empire has superior fleets and mobilizations, and thus would be in an insanely superior position to stop the Vong. But then, this isn't very hard. Any half competent government coulda done it.
7) In fact, everyone knows it. Han Solo knows it, which is why in Destiny's Way, he made a joke about the Emperor's love for superweapons (and the misfortune that seems to unfairly befall on them), apparently to try and cover up the fact even such a superweapon would have been something decisive. And the Vong know it, which is why they've been probing the GFFA ever since before the end of the Old Republic, and hung back all the way to the New Republic. That despite the fact they were clearly running out of time - their worldships were literally reaching the end of their service lives. This is perfectly logical. They are, at base, a small time power that can all fit onto a single planet. If they don't find that weakest point, they'd just be exterminated to the last Vong.

Posted: 2004-11-05 04:05pm
by consequences
You missed one:

Nom Anor, the premier YV infiltration agent, who had been active from Crimson Empire 2 in destabilising the galaxy, was utterly convinced that the Galactic Empire would have dispatched the YV with little effort. Which comes under the heading of informed in-universe opinion from someone who had in-depth knowledge of both sides.

Posted: 2004-11-05 07:39pm
by Lord Pounder
consequences wrote:You missed one:

Nom Anor, the premier YV infiltration agent, who had been active from Crimson Empire 2 in destabilising the galaxy, was utterly convinced that the Galactic Empire would have dispatched the YV with little effort. Which comes under the heading of informed in-universe opinion from someone who had in-depth knowledge of both sides.
But he also comes from a race who assume superiority to any other race. I doubt Nom Anor had a chance to see the Imperial War Machine up close an personal.

Posted: 2004-11-05 08:47pm
by Lord of the Farce
Graeme Dice wrote:You've also still not provided any reasoning why your made up trillions number is fewer casualties than how many would have died when the VOng showed up under the Empire.
You say "made up", eh?
The Unifying Force, pg 485 wrote:The death toll for the entire war was almost incalculable, though the figure most often quoted was 365 trillion.
This part (chapter Forty-Three) was written to focus on GFFA Admiral Traest Kre'fey.

Posted: 2004-11-05 11:20pm
by Graeme Dice
Lord of the Farce wrote:You say "made up", eh?
Yes, until you've provided the source it is just made up. Of course, it still doesn't say anything about how many deaths the Emperor would have caused.

Posted: 2004-11-05 11:24pm
by Lord of the Farce
Graeme Dice wrote:
Lord of the Farce wrote:You say "made up", eh?
Yes, until you've provided the source it is just made up. Of course, it still doesn't say anything about how many deaths the Emperor would have caused.
ARE YOU FUCKING BLIND?!
[u]The Unifying Force[/u], pg 485 wrote:The death toll for the entire war was almost incalculable, though the figure most often quoted was 365 trillion.

Posted: 2004-11-07 07:12pm
by consequences
Lord Pounder wrote:
consequences wrote:You missed one:

Nom Anor, the premier YV infiltration agent, who had been active from Crimson Empire 2 in destabilising the galaxy, was utterly convinced that the Galactic Empire would have dispatched the YV with little effort. Which comes under the heading of informed in-universe opinion from someone who had in-depth knowledge of both sides.
But he also comes from a race who assume superiority to any other race. I doubt Nom Anor had a chance to see the Imperial War Machine up close an personal.

Nom Anor was very much a realist. And even if he wasn't, when a member of the superior race thinks that they have no shot, that's a pretty clear indicator. Besides, he was heavily involved int he Empire's ruling council back in Crimson Empire II.

Posted: 2004-11-10 03:28pm
by Graeme Dice
Lord of the Farce wrote:ARE YOU FUCKING BLIND?!
What's your problem. Until you provided that quote, the 365 trillion figure had no more evidentiary support than a random number between 0 and infinity.

Posted: 2004-11-10 08:22pm
by Lord of the Farce
Graeme Dice wrote:
Lord of the Farce wrote:ARE YOU FUCKING BLIND?!
What's your problem. Until you provided that quote, the 365 trillion figure had no more evidentiary support than a random number between 0 and infinity.
How about you search through this very board's archive, after we've already pointed out towards a source which specify the 365 trillion number? Like this thread from back in November 05, 2003. :lol: