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Admiral Piett wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I know you're arguing for Lucas, but we all know it's retarded. It's better to extend authority through the previously mostly indepedent planets by recruiting stormies. The risk of proliferating the cloning technology to the Rebellion and previously, the Seperatists would make it not worth it. The stormies don't have to be a crack uberforce, they're really just the internal security of a huge police state, so why waste time making them so damn expensive?

The SW galaxy is in a state of technological plateau.Cloning technology is probably in the possibilities every industrialized world,although this does not mean that they would be as much as good at cloning as the Kaminoans.
For the rebel clones are not an option for a variety of reasons.And the separatists have droids which,if designed decently,are the ultimate soldiers.

Typhonis 1 wrote:My point is is that said source of Jangos DNA would eventually run out I mean even if they had 20 million cells that means they may only get 20 million clones of him what then?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:What? How does that have anything to do with the fact that when it comes to sentient troopers, recruits are far cheaper then clones. You're looking at ten years per clone, where a recruit can be trained in a few years for far less expenditure.

Sokar wrote:First off I personally don't care at all if GL's ideas screw over the EU, I've found most of the books to be utter crap. after "Darksaber" I swore to never read another one. So for me they have nothing to do with anything. Second , this is HIS world, he can alter it at will , you, me or any other fan boy has NO say in it nor does he really care if he steps on some SW junkies toes by changing things to suit his current vision.

Sokar wrote:There are several instances in the material produced for the original books and the West End RPG(don't even start with the errors in scale and weaponry argument, these are GAMES , not exercises in mindless fandom devotion) that state that the Stormtroopers just sort of "appear" they have no logistics train , training centers or recruitment centers, Places like the Coruscant Military Academy and Caraidia are all Imperial Army training centers.

Sokar wrote:This is an improtant distinction, Stormtroopers are the Elite shock troops of the Empire, they exist in small numbers and are used for very specific purposes.

Sokar wrote:The Imperial Army on the other hand forms the bulk of the Imperial might , recruited or consripted from across the Empire and trained in a few months, just like current armies. Stormtroopers are NOT the entierty of the Imperial ground forces. With this in mind the idea of them all being clones works , and even Kamino as the sole source of the clones works.

Sokar wrote:With the size of the Empire and the need for continual replacement of losses , Kamino could have turned their entire planetary economy over to the production of cloned, highquality Stormtroopers for Palpatine and the Empire and probably become insanely wealthy at the same time. (During the Clone War there is mention in the Zhan books that clones produced to quickly suffered from insanity and emotional instability, this is what likely led to the outlawing of large scale cloning after the end of the War)

Sokar wrote:Remember though that Palpy is the winner of said war , so suitably he gets to make the rules. The law banning cloning keeps anyone else from trying the same idea. Kamino had already been expunged form the Jedi and no doubt Republic archives, and the only ones who knew of its precise location and existence , the Jedi, are dead by the time of ANH and the Rebellion.

Sokar wrote:
And no one would manage to figure out where all these troops were coming from? No one's that stupid, save perhaps Star Trek crew members. The Rebellion could find the Death Star but couldn't find out where the stormies were coming from? That's absurd.

Sokar wrote:As for arguments for the recruiting of Stormtroopers post ROTJ, with the death of the Emperor at Endor , the Kaminoans lost their contact with the Imperial gov't, and probably shut down the production lines as they saw the rapid decline of the Empire and its replacement with the New Republlic, who would no doubt take a dim view of their interaction with the Emperor. Wealthy beyond measure from decades of Republic and Imperial payments, and protected by the cloak of invisibility granted by erasure, probably retreated into the crowds of strange worlds beyond the Outer Rim. With the tap closed , Imperial Warlords began Stormtrooper recruitment campaigns , expanded the academies to include ST's and fought each other and the Republic.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Fuck. With those words Lucas killed the greatest of the EU books, The Thawn trilogy. Stupidest move he's ever made.

Durran Korr wrote:Nevermind the fact that nowhere in the EU or even the OT does anyone acknowledge that Stormtroopers are clones. You'd think someone would notice this and point it out at some point.

Dammit GL, SW continuity is becoming almost as messed up as Biblical continuity.

Stravo wrote: UNLESS the emperor kept the fact that the Stormies were clones a secret and there was only ONE facility making them. Perhaps it was always Kamino throughout the IMperial era but after the fall of the MEpire, either kamino was captured by the rebels and as such the cloning stopped, or without more payments from the emperor, the Kaminoins simply stopped making the clones. Remember they only care about the size of your pocket book AND it was a relatively unknown system. Only the Jedi knew about it and they are all gone.

I believe that in the trilogy it also states that the secret to the Stormtroopers was lost with the Emperor. I offer up the explanation that Palpy was dealing with Kamino the whole time, he dies, no more payments, no more clones. Does NOT contradict the trilogy because Thrawn did not know about Kamino.

Durran Korr wrote:Oh, I just remembered; IIRC, the clones we saw in the Thrawn Trilogy could be churned out almost instantaneously, whereas the clones we see in EpII take ten years to grow. Perhaps there is some greater significance attached to the fact that Thrawn found a facility that could instantly produce clones, rather than a ten-year facility.

The Dark wrote:Plus, it was possible to detect that they were clones because they had a different "feel" in the Force. If all stormies are clones, then they would also be sensed in such a way, yet that never happens in any of the literature.

Darth Wong wrote:There is nothing about it in the scripts or the novel, the fact that they don't take their helmets off doesn't prove anything (they can't take them off without losing communications), and cloning is a ridiculously expensive and time-consuming way to build an army. You can basic-train a recruit in a few months, but it takes TEN YEARS to prepare a single clonetrooper.

Stravo wrote:Yeah but you get a completely loyal soldier that you can order to do anything and he won't betray you, be bribed, or rebel. Every emperor needs a loyal royal guard to help him secure power, even bannana republic dictators understand that. So Palpy creates an army that is immune to bribes and seduction and will back him up no matter what. Also, perhaps the clones make it easier for him to manipulate their performance ala Zahn's theory.

Vympel wrote:We also need to know what a 'unit' is. 1,000,000 men in 10 years is ludicruously slow.

If we take 'unit' to mean- squad, platoon, company, battalion/regiment, division ... then it makes more sense.

Captain Lennox wrote:Actually, we see Kanos, Jax, and Kanos' partner I believe and it seems Kanos and his partner are actually normal humans, formely being Stormtroopers. Great job overriding all the EU George.

Crazy_Vasey wrote:This invalidates a BIG chunk of the EU I'd guess, pretty much everything that featured stormtroopers out of uniform up till now just got screwed. That would be all of Zahn's novels (well the first trilogy is most definately fucked and the duology has parts that may be buggered as well), the Wraith novels (they featured stormtroopers who weren't clones as I recall although I guess only those parts of the novels would be messed up not all of them), Crimson Empire (pretty much screwed by AOTC everyway possible when you think about it) and probably more I can't remember.

SirNitram wrote:People see so many contradictions where they don't exist.

The Thrawn Trilogies cloning system is completely different from the one seen in Ep II.

One produces a full clone in ten years. One produces it in a year(In a week, with Ysalamri).

One must be rigorously trained. The other simply has brain patterns etched into their mind instantly.

One is docile, prone to taking orders and not questioning them(If you can't see how this is a major weakness in a Rebellion..). The other is a full person.

And then you must think about the fact that...

A) With Jango gone, they will need new 'stock'. A simple small recruiting campaign will provide plenty of varied material, allowing for people with varied looks(Like Kanos).

B) The Empire has lost serious ground by the time Thrawn appears. Has anyone thought of the possibility they might have lost their main facilities?

Admiral Piett wrote:This is true,although it is entirely possible that clones may be preferable to clones for some reasons.They may be expesive but expendable.

Admiral Piett wrote:Maybe the citizens of the empire are not in line to join military corps with high attrition rates,such as the stormtroopers.

Admiral Piett wrote:Still in my opinion droids (if not designed by the trade federation idiots) are better.Clones are a poor compromise between droids and recruits.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: IIRC, in the Thrawn Trilogy they do say that cloning was banned.

Kanos, Davin Felth, etc showed creative and independent streaks. One held on to duty and formulated a strategy for avenging his Master beyond the orders of anyone, and Felth actually saw a design flaw in the AT-AT and eventually killed his superior officer whom he believed was corrupt.

I don't deny that its possible to stetch things to make sense, but I can't see how clones like those we saw in AoTC can fill these other roles.

The Royal Guards were selected from stormies who showed skill and an aptitude for the Force. Shouldn't the cloners know which clones had Force-potential and which did not? (Reference: Dark Side Sourcebook)

That's a stetch (its hard to imagine that somehow cloning was that highly restricted), but ultimately possible (perhaps the cloning planets in your view could've been in the Deep Core, shielded from the Civil War and in loyal Imperial hands?).

Typhonis 1 wrote:here are some points to remeber after AOTC
1 Jango Fett is dead and a new source of DNA needed to be found

2 Identical clones are very vulnerable to geneengineered viruses

3 by Thrawns Era Stromtroopers were rare meaning that the cloning of them was not occuring or that the supply just couldnt keep up with the demand

4by NJO the Empire may need to recruit Troopers like all other oldiers

Here you have an explanation for Lucass and the EUs vision of the clones

Yes in the OT the Troopers were clones but not of just one person

Stormbringer wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:What about Kyp Durron's brother?

It's possible they recruit (or conscript) in small numbers with the intention of finding new and more varied soldiers. They could then modify them for suceeding generations of clones. That could be how they can use just Carida as a military academy.

SirNitram wrote:

neoolong wrote:

Typhonis 1 wrote:My point is is that said source of Jangos DNA would eventually run out I mean even if they had 20 million cells that means they may only get 20 million clones of him what then?

It depends on the cloning process. Is that how cloning is done by the Kaminoans?

Given that they kept Jango around, it would seem so.

neoolong wrote:Why would they need a new source if Jango is dead? Surely they must have had some stored DNA in storage somewhere. Considering that Jango wasn't confined to Kamino there was a chance, given that he is a bounty hunter, that he would die somewhere. The Kaminoans probably thought of a contingency in case this happened. Or else they are incredibly stupid.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:What? How does that have anything to do with the fact that when it comes to sentient troopers, recruits are far cheaper then clones. You're looking at ten years per clone, where a recruit can be trained in a few years for far less expenditure.

IMHO. He changes his mind too damn much. Since the in-universe movie canon tells me that the OT stormtroopers have different voices and different heights, then they're not clones since this isn't contradicted by official data. Lucas' opinion is subject to change and is quite stupid. Furthermore he didn't insert it into the movie, so I'll convienently forget it.

Admiral Piett wrote:That depends on what type of technology is used.They could for example analyze the structure of Jango's DNA and then replicate the DNA for every clone from "raw" materials.They surely have the technology to do that,without having to "copy from a copy".The reasons for keeping Jango around may be DNA unrelated.They are not human after all and they may want to keep an human around for asking him informations.Surely they can find all the information they want on human psychology,training etc on the books but if you were at their place would not you prefer to keep an human around,just in case the need may arise?

Ender wrote:

neoolong wrote:Why would they need a new source if Jango is dead? Surely they must have had some stored DNA in storage somewhere. Considering that Jango wasn't confined to Kamino there was a chance, given that he is a bounty hunter, that he would die somewhere. The Kaminoans probably thought of a contingency in case this happened. Or else they are incredibly stupid.

But the novel says they needed him there to constantly reharves DNA because ti wore out eventually. If they did loose him, they had Boba's unaltered DNA. But with Boba gone, you need a new source.

Those were Spaarti clones, not Kaminoan clones. Apparently the Confederacy may attempt to produce Spaarti clones in future EU source according to certain SW Dark Horse comics sources.

Isard would've figured it out or already known about it. Something that big isn't kept only to Palpatine. It would've taken quite sometime to retool and establish the military machine so conscription could suddenly replace millions or billions of now no longer being produced troops. I'm sorry but there's just no way that things would be so well hidden.

Captain Lennox wrote:Oh, well today I was talking too an EU writer I know online, and whose book you may see on shelves in the future. Anyways, he was saying that Palpatine had used Clones until about a few years too before AHN because he lacked a recruitment base when they began too die off, and when recruitment was stepped up. It is my opinion that recruitment was 100% in known Campaigns, and any Clones would be used in 'Black' Campaigns like Thrawn's.

The stormies were the Imperial Army last time I checked. Do you have a source that distinguishes between Imperial Army foot soldiers and stormies? Nearly 10,000 per SD doesn't seem small to me.

Ender wrote:Chemical weapons are banend in war, but we still have them. Landmines are getting banned, but we still have them. Nuclear testing was banned, but North Korea still did it. Further, you have whole populations of clones, like Dorsk 81's species. Cloning may be banned by the NR era or before, but there is nothing precluding the Empire's use of it. After all, they banned the ownership of turbolasers, but ISDs were armed. The ban could have just applied to everyone else.

Ender wrote:Most of those "tales of" have so many errors they border on apocrycal and can be ignored if not rationalized. After all, they give us time travel where killing things in the future elimitnates a beast in the past, and gives IG88 five fingers even though the movies show his hands to be clips.

Excellent examples of two more-or-less apocryphal stories. You do realize I'm not speaking of the Infinities "Star War Tales," right? And the referred to short story in "Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina" supports that at least some of the stormies were clones. But if you'd like to can that story, I'd be more then happy to oblige you as it helps my argument.

If you'd like to show how the Dark Side Sourcebook is contradicted by other official information or the movies, then I'll happily concede the point. Otherwise it stands.

Ender wrote:It is the best answer. If you only have a few major facilities, they would be prime targets by the warlords and NR to eliminate a steady supply of ground troops. It would also fit with why the SD-9s, SD-10s, Tank Droids, and Vyper Droids are being produced for the army later.

Felth and Durron's brother, Kanos, etc were all happening during the OT.

Ender wrote:This has been one of my theories for a while. Plus them all being clonmes makes some logistical sense. You have billions if not trillions of those guys; it is far cheaper to mass produce one set of armor (or only a few dozen) then it is to make a custom suit for every one

Or conscript people that fit your logistical requirements. They have a galaxy's worth of people to conscript and you think that's a problem? You think that outwieghs the material cost of raising and educating stormtroopers from infancy to adulthood in ten years? And that age acceleration likely remains and limits the affective life of the clone?

Ender wrote:It's possible they recruit (or conscript) in small numbers with the intention of finding new and more varied soldiers. They could then modify them for suceeding generations of clones. That could be how they can use just Carida as a military academy.

Bzzt. Wrong. The Last Command has planets asking Thrawn if their population will be subject to conscription like before the Empire's fall. This was apparently widespread enough to warrant the asking of the question immediately after surrendering of their planet.

Ender wrote:Or he could have been force sensitive and was being trained to Imperial Royal Guard levels before Palpatines fall. This would fit with most everything.

Guard training took place on Yinchoor. ALL of the Royal Guards except Kanos were dead by the end of the Crimson Empire series says the Essential Chronology.

Ender wrote:1) you can get it down to about a year of training. This is good for the level involved.

You're assuming they used unstable Spaarti tech. This was discarded on an undevelopped world w/ Palpy's other trinkets. Kaminoan tech seems more likely and would require 10 years per clone.

Ender wrote:2) the SS and whatnot were far from absolutly loyal. There were traitors in there, adn people who wanted to carve out their own chunk of Germany

Are you really going to be having any kind of mass mutinies in any kind of stormtrooper in any kind of society/military/government such as the Empire? Come on.

Ender wrote:3) You don't have drugs that don't have side effects, psycotropic drugs especaiily. Messing with the mind via drugs is dicey.

I'm sure they've figured something out by the time they invented hyperdrive. And they still don't need 100% docile-to-orders troopers. Brainwashing and programming would get the job done just fine. I hate this idea Palpy was so paranoid he'd need to spend all this more money to create a marginally more loyal kind of trooper.

Captain Lennox wrote:Oh, well today I was talking too an EU writer I know online, and whose book you may see on shelves in the future. Anyways, he was saying that Palpatine had used Clones until about a few years too before AHN because he lacked a recruitment base when they began too die off, and when recruitment was stepped up. It is my opinion that recruitment was 100% in known Campaigns, and any Clones would be used in 'Black' Campaigns like Thrawn's.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

And conscripts aren't? Maybe you should read up on quite a few historical examples. If anything, clones are LESS replaceable, because of the already mentioned reasons for why they are MORE expensive.

I meant in the sense that you do not have to write some letters to their parents back at home in case the recruits in question get killed.Recruits can be replaced easily but political reasons may make this a less desiderable option.

Ever hear of conscription (Ref: The Last Command)? And why would the stormies have high attrition rates? Why wouldn't the Imperial-controlled media disinform the populace to encourage recruitment? They were better then any other ground force in the galaxy, the Rebellion was small and avoided protracted ground battles, conquering puny backward groups is not a costly battle, and the only significant wars being fought were by the forces under Grand Admiral Thrawn in the Unknown Regions, and those campiagns were totally "black" so no one would really know anyway.

Likely.Although I am not sure about conscription.Conscripts are not probably a good option for the empire.

Ender wrote:No, the stormies are the equivlents of marines, not the Army. The army is a seperate entity.

Spaarti could be a brand of cloning tube you know. However the bit about my "Confeds use them" theory poipping up in the comics intrigues me. Got a link?

Ender wrote:But if they were destroyed of under a warlords control Isard couldn't do a thing. remember, she didn't have an Interdictor, I'd imagine a whole cloning complex would be even more difficult

Stravo wrote:Would you then be satisfied when he does as he intends and redubs all the Stormies' voices with Jango's? Will that FINALLY put this debate to rest? Seriously, I don't see what the uproar is about. I like the clone idea, it fits with his whole overall theme of the machination of man and how evil technology can be when used in the wrong way.