Should Lucas be removed before he ruins SW completely?

[Stormbringer]

The other complaint I keep hearing is about GL's dialog. Guess what? He's always had a problem with that! Back during the filming of ANH, Harrison Ford stopped as they were filming a scene to remonstrate with Lucas about that very subject. He wouldn't speak a particular line the way it was written, telling Lucas: "You can write this shit George, but you sure as hell can't say it!"

Lucas' weakness has always been dialog. He's primarily a visual storyteller.

But a lot of what he's trying to do in the prequels requires good dialogue. A love story can't be conveyed by a sweet crane shot, you need a good dialogue. Lucas needs to recognize his own faults and bring in and listen to people that are good at that stuff.

[Slartibartfast]

Most of you were expecting the same kind of magic you sensed from the OT, but you're too old and too critical an audience for that now; it's not gonna happen. Live with it.

The other complaint I keep hearing is about GL's dialog. Guess what? He's always had a problem with that! Back during the filming of ANH, Harrison Ford stopped as they were filming a scene to remonstrate with Lucas about that very subject. He wouldn't speak a particular line the way it was written, telling Lucas: "You can write this shit George, but you sure as hell can't say it!"

Lucas' weakness has always been dialog. He's primarily a visual storyteller.

That's exactly why he needs someone to step up and tell him his lines are shit. Instead we get an entire cast of actors and yes-men, the only thing they can think of is "I was in a Star Wars movie! That was a hoot!"

[Ghost Rider]

Most of you were expecting the same kind of magic you sensed from the OT, but you're too old and too critical an audience for that now; it's not gonna happen. Live with it.

The other complaint I keep hearing is about GL's dialog. Guess what? He's always had a problem with that! Back during the filming of ANH, Harrison Ford stopped as they were filming a scene to remonstrate with Lucas about that very subject. He wouldn't speak a particular line the way it was written, telling Lucas: "You can write this shit George, but you sure as hell can't say it!"

Lucas' weakness has always been dialog. He's primarily a visual storyteller.

No I can still go back and watch the OT and still love the line "I know." Or many of Vader's line...hell I've introduced girlfriends who never saw Star Wars and don't think its as kiddiefied as the PT is.

Lucas' weakness is that he's now on his high horse believeing only HIS hands can mold it right...and unfortunatly the dialogue and the pacing are bad. They feel forced and contrived and some of the stuff he takes out to 'speed' things up are just BS excuses half the times(Don't need to see in Episode 1 Anakin going apeshit over one line said by another but we must Jar-Jar make an ass out of himself some more )

[Perinquus]

Most of you were expecting the same kind of magic you sensed from the OT, but you're too old and too critical an audience for that now; it's not gonna happen. Live with it.

The other complaint I keep hearing is about GL's dialog. Guess what? He's always had a problem with that! Back during the filming of ANH, Harrison Ford stopped as they were filming a scene to remonstrate with Lucas about that very subject. He wouldn't speak a particular line the way it was written, telling Lucas: "You can write this shit George, but you sure as hell can't say it!"

Lucas' weakness has always been dialog. He's primarily a visual storyteller.

No I can still go back and watch the OT and still love the line "I know." Or many of Vader's line...hell I've introduced girlfriends who never saw Star Wars and don't think its as kiddiefied as the PT is.

Lucas' weakness is that he's now on his high horse believeing only HIS hands can mold it right...and unfortunatly the dialogue and the pacing are bad. They feel forced and contrived and some of the stuff he takes out to 'speed' things up are just BS excuses half the times(Don't need to see in Episode 1 Anakin going apeshit over one line said by another but we must Jar-Jar make an ass out of himself some more )

Yes you can go back to TESB and get a different feel entirely for the dialog - because it was directed by Irvin Kershner. That's exactly why that story came out the way it did (Kershner is much better than Lucas at dialog and character development). I'm sorry but ANH had a lot of the same problems TPM and AOTC had, you were just much much younger when you saw it for the first time, and you didn't notice them. You overlook them these days (even though they're there) because of that fond memory of how blown away you were by the movie. Fond memory colors your recollection.

I know this because back in 1977 I heard my mother make complaints about the movie that sounded remarkably like what a lot of you are saying about the prequel movies today. I remember her rolling her eyes when I (all of eight years old at the time) asked to go see it for the third time. She said: "Twice is more than enough Darren. The movie's okay, but there's not much to the plot, or the chracters either." Of course, I just looked at her like she was speaking Japanese or something. But you know what, she was actually right.

I can practically hear you all screaming:

HERESY!!!

Don't misunderstand me. I still love the movie. I still watch it with pleasure. But I'm a sci-fi fan, and my mother wasn't. She was giving the usual adult, non sci-fi fan's reaction - before Star Wars became recognized a cultural phenomenon. But she is right. The plot is thin, and the character's aren't well defined. They became well defined, of course, but that's because of TESB, which, under Irvin Kershner's direction became a very character driven story. But if you look back to ANH, and try to look at it purely on it's own, not remembering it in the context of the other two films as well, you will notice that it is not a character driven movie.

But I will grant you that the onscreen chemistry bewteen Luke, Han and Leia was, even at that early stage, something special. And that's what makes the film work as well as it does. It's kind of like the great triumvirate of Kirk, Spock and McCoy from the original Star Trek, which is also something Roddenberry couldn't reproduce either (and which he wouldn't have produced even the first time if his original captain - Jeffrey Hunter - had retained the role for the series). You people are judging Lucas too harshly for not working that bit of magic again, but it's a very elusive bit of magic, not easily recaptured. Very few filmakers can do that twice, and many can't do it even once.

Stop whining about what you don't like, and try to enjoy what you've got.

[Illuminatus Primus]

While I have argued in favour of the EU from the perspective of allowing Lucasfilm to decide what is and isn't valid, this should not be confused with fandom. I don't actually like a lot of the EU; it almost invariably downsizes Star Wars into bite-sized McStarWars pieces to make the writer's job easier (the Executor nearly "bankrupted" the Empire????), and if you think Boba's story prominence was a brain bug, take a good long look at the bullshit they routinely pull in the EU. The idea of flash-imprinting memories from one person onto another has no basis in canon (why the hell do they need to use torture droids to interrogate people if they can download their fucking memories?), and the EU is responsible for such idiocy as Zahn's "Unknown Regions", IG-88E taking over DS2, and that whole fucking biotech YV "singularity" bullshit.

And all that was APPROVED BY LUCASFILM, and by extension LUCAS HIMSELF.

You cannot do double flip flops like that, deciding what is official one
moment and then overruling it with canon the next. I like my stories
with a somewhat tight plot, and Lucas is currently proceeding to rip
the entire Star Wars Universe to shreds with his "I-Am-God" syndrome.

When you put your fucking SEAL of approval on the damn books, don't
turn around 10 years later, and say "oops, this isn't how we imagined it"
and invalidate it.

To argue that these hacks should be writing the prequels is heresy. GL may be clumsy, but I'd rather not have prequels at all than leave them in the hands of the EU authors.

You blaspheme Timothy Zahn? DEATH TO THE HERETIC!

Aye Shep. I can provide extensive quotes, but Lucas reads a syonpsis and short draft for every single Star Wars novel. He personally participated in the Sith War comics series and early Marvel and the NJO launch was a much-discussed issue at LFL and Del Rey no doubt, and Lucas is said to personally have okayed Chewie's death. He knows what's going on, by and large, so it isn't the evil editors passing stuff by in GL's name. It is George Lucas himself. Just the synopsis for Darksabre was fucked, and he approved it, and that shows you all you need to know right there.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The other complaint I keep hearing is about GL's dialog. Guess what? He's always had a problem with that! Back during the filming of ANH, Harrison Ford stopped as they were filming a scene to remonstrate with Lucas about that very subject. He wouldn't speak a particular line the way it was written, telling Lucas: "You can write this shit George, but you sure as hell can't say it!"

Lucas' weakness has always been dialog. He's primarily a visual storyteller.

But a lot of what he's trying to do in the prequels requires good dialogue. A love story can't be conveyed by a sweet crane shot, you need a good dialogue. Lucas needs to recognize his own faults and bring in and listen to people that are good at that stuff.

This is why ESB was and always will be the best SW movie. It wasn't Lucas' sole wankjob. It was SW because Lucas molded the concept and gave birth to ESB and nurtured its creation and completion, but others fine tuned it and waxed it down. With the others....you can tell the latter wasn't done.

[Perinquus]

The other complaint I keep hearing is about GL's dialog. Guess what? He's always had a problem with that! Back during the filming of ANH, Harrison Ford stopped as they were filming a scene to remonstrate with Lucas about that very subject. He wouldn't speak a particular line the way it was written, telling Lucas: "You can write this shit George, but you sure as hell can't say it!"

Lucas' weakness has always been dialog. He's primarily a visual storyteller.

But a lot of what he's trying to do in the prequels requires good dialogue. A love story can't be conveyed by a sweet crane shot, you need a good dialogue. Lucas needs to recognize his own faults and bring in and listen to people that are good at that stuff.

This is why ESB was and always will be the best SW movie. It wasn't Lucas' sole wankjob. It was SW because Lucas molded the concept and gave birth to ESB and nurtured its creation and completion, but others fine tuned it and waxed it down. With the others....you can tell the latter wasn't done.

Before you sneeringly refer to things as his "wankjobs", and dismiss Lucas as some kind of incompetent, I suggest you remember that it was all his idea in the first place, and imperfectly realized or not, if it weren't for him, none of it would exist at all.

Mike has said it very well already: there is a difference between criticism and bashing.

[CmdrWilkens]

Ultimately I think the problem resides in a conflict in Lucas's own mind. He wants to both make this grand 6 part saga depicting the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker and the overall concept when distilled down into symbolism and character is really powerful. The problem is that, I think, he doesn't believe anyone else really has this same vision of the Rise and Fall of Anakin Skywalker so he wants to do things his way because only his way will lead to the full circle being complete.

The other probelm is that, while Lucas is an excellent Producer and Editor he is less skilled at directing. I'm sure that actors love to work with him, as much has been said often enough, but the best work of SW was when he was still inexperienced and willing to experiment (ANH) and when he let an excellent director helm the project (ESB and Kirshner). I honestly think that revising the produciton crew would help Ep III immensly. Here's how I would do it, since it is the last SW.

1) Get rid of Rick, sure he's a nice guy but Lucas can do his job and do it better and with more focus.
2) Call up your old buddy Steven Spielberg and tell him you need his help in getting this last movie across because its so critical.
3) Conjur up the ghost of Leigh Brackett because it was her work on ESB that made the script click, there's a reason she got a Hugo posthumously.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

But let's not worship people like Zahn just because we're not wholly satisfied with the prequels. Most people are exaggerating the prequels' flaws (there's a difference between criticism and bashing), and while I like his writing style, let's face it; Zahn has no grasp whatsoever of the epic scale of the SW universe. If Zahn wrote AOTC, the separatists would have 30 star systems in one corner of a pie-shaped quadrant of the galaxy, and the Battle of Geonosis would have had a few hundred troops and 4 ships involved, but with really clever tactics. And we would be ranting and raving about how he's destroying SW from a different angle.

OK then, explain Endor in the context of a million million world empire, and
the necessary fleets needed to keep control of that Empire.

30 Star Destroyers and One Command Ship is a freaking DROP IN THE BUCKET. It is 0.0012% of the total 25,000 Star Destroyer Figure, and
a SPECK next to the Empire's total shipping strength. The Empire
could have spared more ships for Endor, a LOT more without
being noticed.

Lucas is just as guilty of downrating SW to manageable lengths as
Zahn is.

In the first place, he couldn't bring in much more of his forces and still lure the Rebels in. The Rebs were supposed to believe they had a chance of winning. In the second place, the plan would have worked if the ground team hadn't gotten lucky, pure and simple.

The Emperor did not bring in more of his forces because he figured he didn't need them.

And just to put my own two cents in: I have to agree with Mike. My God there is a lot of whining in this thread! It's like a lot of you had your balloon popped, and now you're sulking at mean old George Lucas for doing it. I think the prequels are pretty good over all. They've got some problems, but both of them are better than ROTJ in my opinion - that movie was like two completely separate hour-long stories pasted together, and I didn't like the Ewoks a bit.

Most of you were expecting the same kind of magic you sensed from the OT, but you're too old and too critical an audience for that now; it's not gonna happen. Live with it.

The other complaint I keep hearing is about GL's dialog. Guess what? He's always had a problem with that! Back during the filming of ANH, Harrison Ford stopped as they were filming a scene to remonstrate with Lucas about that very subject. He wouldn't speak a particular line the way it was written, telling Lucas: "You can write this shit George, but you sure as hell can't say it!"

Lucas' weakness has always been dialog. He's primarily a visual storyteller.

I'll agree there too. I'll also add that GL IIRC said that he made the movies in the order it is b/c, the Prequels while having a good story to tell, didn't have a story as strong as the OT. I love all thing SW (except some EU). I'm actually glad GL took some of the risks he did in the Prequels. I only wish that some lines were tweaked, and that GL caould get a director better suited with dealing with actors. He had the talent, but he didn't channel it as well as it could have, but the performances in general for the prequels weren't bad. I've seen bad acting and to say the PT has bad acting is a little much. Wasted talent would probably be better suited for the PT.

Oh and the Other Directors of the OT, I would say they were co-directors. GL had a lot of say in what went on during the filming of Empire and Jedi.

[Perinquus]

Ultimately I think the problem resides in a conflict in Lucas's own mind. He wants to both make this grand 6 part saga depicting the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker and the overall concept when distilled down into symbolism and character is really powerful. The problem is that, I think, he doesn't believe anyone else really has this same vision of the Rise and Fall of Anakin Skywalker so he wants to do things his way because only his way will lead to the full circle being complete.

The other probelm is that, while Lucas is an excellent Producer and Editor he is less skilled at directing. I'm sure that actors love to work with him, as much has been said often enough, but the best work of SW was when he was still inexperienced and willing to experiment (ANH) and when he let an excellent director helm the project (ESB and Kirshner). I honestly think that revising the produciton crew would help Ep III immensly. Here's how I would do it, since it is the last SW.

1) Get rid of Rick, sure he's a nice guy but Lucas can do his job and do it better and with more focus.

I'm not so sure that would be a good idea. Remember, even on TESB Lucas had help. Gary Kurtz (who I believe is also dead) was executive producer, and helped Lucas out a great deal.

2) Call up your old buddy Steven Spielberg and tell him you need his help in getting this last movie across because its so critical.

I'm not so sure Spielberg's the right guy for that anymore, if he ever was. Did you see A.I. ? Ugh! Even his more successful recent films like Saving Private Ryan haven't been really strong on characters (though it certainly helped having top drawer talent like Tom Hanks to play the lead), and character depth is what the films could use more than anything. And the problem with Spielberg is he spent too many years listening to critics who were saying his films lacked depth, and they were just thrill rides, so these days he's trying to be taken as a serious director. Star Wars should not try to be Schindler's List.

3) Conjur up the ghost of Leigh Brackett because it was her work on ESB that made the script click, there's a reason she got a Hugo posthumously.

Brackett's dead. He'll just have to muddle along without her.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Uh, Brackett didn't really do much for the ESB script (or much that survived the latter revisions). Lucas really only credited her because she died and she was a good friend of his.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Before you sneeringly refer to things as his "wankjobs", and dismiss Lucas as some kind of incompetent, I suggest you remember that it was all his idea in the first place, and imperfectly realized or not, if it weren't for him, none of it would exist at all.

Mike has said it very well already: there is a difference between criticism and bashing.

I love Lucas' work and his creation, however a majority of his brain-bugs could accurately be described by slang term "wankjob."

Mr. Lucas is an excellent conceptualization writer and the master at molding worlds and visions and has also shown extreme competence in painting the visual worlds to set the stage, however, he has not shown optimal performance in the fields of strong plot movement, characterization, and most importantly dialogue. He's shown great abilities in use of literary elements throughout his saga. His primary weaknesses lie in the aforementioned fields and additionally in the field of consistency. One who listens to George Lucas' early interview and does token research DOES realize there were originally to be 3 trilogies at least, and that the whole saga was primarily centered around the "Adventures of Luke Skywalker," the subtitle to be found in the original A New Hope novelization. His inconsistency with approved Expanded Universe materials and inconsistency with several elements from the Original Trilogy have harmed his overall work's coherence.

[MKSheppard]

Don't misunderstand me. I still love the movie. I still watch it with pleasure. But I'm a sci-fi fan, and my mother wasn't. She was giving the usual adult, non sci-fi fan's reaction - before Star Wars became recognized a cultural phenomenon. But she is right. The plot is thin, and the character's aren't well defined. They became well defined, of course, but that's because of TESB, which, under Irvin Kershner's direction became a very character driven story. But if you look back to ANH, and try to look at it purely on it's own, not remembering it in the context of the other two films as well, you will notice that it is not a character driven movie.

Actually, you had the following: The Blockade Runner/ISD fight, the
Rebel Troops vs Stormtrooper Boarding sequence, the Jawa attack
scene, the tusken raider scene, a guy losing his arm in the bar...

The list goes on and on, ANH was a *fun* movie to watch. With TPM,
it was a boring drag, and the final space battle scene,
along with the gungan/droid army battle wasn't worth it. It was like
being cheated out of two hours of your life.

People didn't go to the first Star Wars movie purely because of the richness
of the plot. They went because they wanted to be *entertained*, and
they got entertained with a lot of action. With TPM, it was like someone
had walked up to the SW movies with a liposuction machine and surgically
removed any trace of *fun*.

AOTC really remedied a lot of this, because it was much more of a thrill
ride, what with the beginning KABOOM, the Zam Wessel Chase and
assassination, the Jango Fett fight on Kamino, and the asteroid
field battle. It was a pretty good movie if you can mentally delete the
awful romance subplot, but Lucas started to really fuck with the Star
Wars universe with this oneIt was a pretty good movie if you can mentally delete the
awful romance subplot, but Lucas started to really fuck with the Star
Wars universe with this one by making the separatists somehow design
the fucking Death Star....not Bevel Lemelisk.

His recent decision to tell the story of the Clone Wars through EU literature
is making me even more worried that he will once again create a gaping
plot hole and continuity hole in the SW Universe by letting anyone who
can breathe and string together a few sentences in a grammartically correct
manner write official material for SW, and then when he makes Episode III,
he will do whatever he wants, obliterating much of what we were told of the
Clone Wars in between Episode II and III.

Face the facts, people, Lucas wants MONEY, MONEY. The lucasfilm
marketing machine is getting ridiculous here with it's explosion of books
aimed towards kiddie readers that are OFFICIAL, along with their willingness
to let ANYONE write in the SW universe, no matter how awful they are.

I'll say this: If you want Star Wars the way it should be: Stick to our fanfiction.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Note: Bevel Lemilisk was described by LFL sources as on Geonosis during AOTC, he's simply off-screen. He was hired by the Geonosians to assist in the rough designing of the Death Star.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Don't be SO pessimistic Shep. They still have a degree of quality control. Most of the main authors I've seen are quite impressive, Zahn, Stover, and a few others impress me.

[Stravo]

I'll say this: If you want Star Wars the way it should be: Stick to our fanfiction.

YEAH. I second that motion...you know I hear that Stravo guy's gotta pretty good one going right now.

[Ghost Rider]

Shame...Stravo...shame

Still ah well like I said it is his creation to destroy or create...though it would be nice to see more help persay since the direction at times in TPM and AOTC were lacking, but eh...not saying I can do better...just voicing my own complaint.

[Ingersoll]

Note: Bevel Lemilisk was described by LFL sources as on Geonosis during AOTC, he's simply off-screen. He was hired by the Geonosians to assist in the rough designing of the Death Star.

Another mental hoop to jump through? How many escape clauses do they think we can swallow?

[MKSheppard]

Another mental hoop to jump through? How many escape clauses do they think we can swallow?

Yep.

[Kuja]

Note: Bevel Lemilisk was described by LFL sources as on Geonosis during AOTC, he's simply off-screen. He was hired by the Geonosians to assist in the rough designing of the Death Star.

That oughta be the other way around (Geonosians help with rough design)

[CmdrWilkens]

1) Get rid of Rick, sure he's a nice guy but Lucas can do his job and do it better and with more focus.

I'm not so sure that would be a good idea. Remember, even on TESB Lucas had help. Gary Kurtz (who I believe is also dead) was executive producer, and helped Lucas out a great deal.

IIRC Lucas retained the position of Executive Producer for himself while Kurtz was the producer so maybe you could just demote Rick though I don't know how well that would sit.

2) Call up your old buddy Steven Spielberg and tell him you need his help in getting this last movie across because its so critical.

I'm not so sure Spielberg's the right guy for that anymore, if he ever was. Did you see A.I. ? Ugh! Even his more successful recent films like Saving Private Ryan haven't been really strong on characters (though it certainly helped having top drawer talent like Tom Hanks to play the lead), and character depth is what the films could use more than anything. And the problem with Spielberg is he spent too many years listening to critics who were saying his films lacked depth, and they were just thrill rides, so these days he's trying to be taken as a serious director. Star Wars should not try to be Schindler's List.

The point, more than just saying Spielberg will fix all is that Lucas has a very fine cadre of close directing friends who might be able to help him out here 9Francis Ford Coppola comes to mind as well). Mainly george needs to go out and shop another diector for EpIII.

3) Conjur up the ghost of Leigh Brackett because it was her work on ESB that made the script click, there's a reason she got a Hugo posthumously.

Brackett's dead. He'll just have to muddle along without her.

Thus the reason I told him to conjur up her ghost. I am also unsure is Katz or Huyck are still around but they helped out with some good dialouge work on ANH and if they aren't available then conjur their ghosts as well, maybe there'll be enough spirits to help make the dialouge and action better.

[Perinquus]

I'll say this: If you want Star Wars the way it should be: Stick to our fanfiction.

You've got to be kidding me!

When die hard rabid fans get hold of something they start to treat it like dogma. Never change. Never experiment. Never take chances. Never take it in new directions. Never vary from the sancrosanct, holy formula.

And it all sinks into (pale) imitation, then collapses under the weight of its dreary sameness.

[CmdrWilkens]

I'll say this: If you want Star Wars the way it should be: Stick to our fanfiction.

You've got to be kidding me!

When die hard rabid fans get hold of something they start to treat it like dogma. Never change. Never experiment. Never take chances. Never take it in new directions. Never vary from the sancrosanct, holy formula.

And it all sinks into (pale) imitation, then collapses under the weight of its dreary sameness.

You think the WWE saga and Star Crossed sag and collapse?

HERETIC

[Perinquus]

I'll say this: If you want Star Wars the way it should be: Stick to our fanfiction.

You've got to be kidding me!

When die hard rabid fans get hold of something they start to treat it like dogma. Never change. Never experiment. Never take chances. Never take it in new directions. Never vary from the sancrosanct, holy formula.

And it all sinks into (pale) imitation, then collapses under the weight of its dreary sameness.

You think the WWE saga and Star Crossed sag and collapse?

HERETIC

I wouldn't know, I haven't read them. They might be outstanding. But this idea that only the fans can write good SW anymore is just so silly it needs to be nipped in the bud right here. And whatever its merits, fan fiction has a well observed tendency to suffer from just the malady that I listed - repetition; unwillingness to deviate from the "holy truth", unwillingness to build on the story, rather than just add to it.

I for one am glad to see Lucas fleshing out his fictional universe - even if I don't like everything he does with it.

[Stravo]

You've got to be kidding me!

When die hard rabid fans get hold of something they start to treat it like dogma. Never change. Never experiment. Never take chances. Never take it in new directions. Never vary from the sancrosanct, holy formula.

And it all sinks into (pale) imitation, then collapses under the weight of its dreary sameness.

You think the WWE saga and Star Crossed sag and collapse?

HERETIC

I wouldn't know, I haven't read them. They might be outstanding. But this idea that only the fans can write good SW anymore is just so silly it needs to be nipped in the bud right here. And whatever its merits, fan fiction has a well observed tendency to suffer from just the malady that I listed - repetition; unwillingness to deviate from the "holy truth", unwillingness to build on the story, rather than just add to it.

I for one am glad to see Lucas fleshing out his fictional universe - even if I don't like everything he does with it.

I have to disagree...most BAD fanfic is precisely what you describe it to be. You want to see eye bleeding bad fanfic read this wonderful little story called "Portal"

I would give the good fics a chance. SOme writers take chances with characters and situations and some have an inherent understanding about the characters that populate the universe and then the TRUE challenge is making both universes true to themsleves AND enteratining the masses.

All I'm saying is that you should give some fanfic a chance. I would have said the same thing as you if all I had read was "Portal"

I could suggest a few to you but some people would claim I was whoring myself......


Read Star Crossed its magically delicious