Modern tank vs Mobile Suit, serious calcs included.

[Howedar]

It has been stated that Mechs do not use RHA. This is correct. They use, if I remember correctly, "Super Tinsile Steel." The key word is "steel" here, people. Not a composite armor system. These mechs use steel. Thus, for a given thickness, said mech armor is AT BEST comparable to a T-90's armor.

[Vympel]

It has been stated that Mechs do not use RHA. This is correct. They use, if I remember correctly, "Super Tinsile Steel." The key word is "steel" here, people. Not a composite armor system. These mechs use steel. Thus, for a given thickness, said mech armor is AT BEST comparable to a T-90's armor.

Far inferior in fact, if we use the definition of 'super tensile' so kindly provided earlier. Its soft as shite.

[MKSheppard]

It has been stated that Mechs do not use RHA. This is correct. They use, if I remember correctly, "Super Tinsile Steel." The key word is "steel" here, people. Not a composite armor system. These mechs use steel. Thus, for a given thickness, said mech armor is AT BEST comparable to a T-90's armor.

No. AT BEST, it's worse, since modern tanks use a composite armor system
of ceramic inserts, RHA liner walls, and Depleted Uranium Mesh to defeat
pretty much anything thrown at it....when you add in the Kontakt ERA,
it becomes insane....

[Vejut]

I seem to recall this coming up before--using indirect fire, they can. (see half-dozen times T-90 ranges have been quoted on the three threads this arguement has spread over...)

Second, as pointed out by Vympel, can yours?

Third, at long range, the turret doesn't have to move much, even if the target is running flat out perpendicular...about 4 degrees every 5 seconds, at most (assuming target is moving at 240km/h, on the hoverjets this model of mecha doesn't have, IIRC...)

MKsheppard, for all his vitrol, also has a point with that aircraft example: These guns (even to take out WWII tanks) put out SHITLOADS of recoil. Can your mech even stay pointing in the right direction after shooting?

[Vympel]

It has been stated that Mechs do not use RHA. This is correct. They use, if I remember correctly, "Super Tinsile Steel." The key word is "steel" here, people. Not a composite armor system. These mechs use steel. Thus, for a given thickness, said mech armor is AT BEST comparable to a T-90's armor.

No. AT BEST, it's worse, since modern tanks use a composite armor system
of ceramic inserts, RHA liner walls, and Depleted Uranium Mesh to defeat
pretty much anything thrown at it....when you add in the Kontakt ERA,
it becomes insane....

In terms of heavy armor you and I seem to be on the same wavelength shep

[MKSheppard]

In terms of heavy armor you and I seem to be on the same wavelength shep

Let's not even get into the ballistic shapes of the T-90 and the Gundam/Zakus,
respectively, then it becomes positively EVIL.

[Howedar]

It has been stated that Mechs do not use RHA. This is correct. They use, if I remember correctly, "Super Tinsile Steel." The key word is "steel" here, people. Not a composite armor system. These mechs use steel. Thus, for a given thickness, said mech armor is AT BEST comparable to a T-90's armor.

No. AT BEST, it's worse, since modern tanks use a composite armor system
of ceramic inserts, RHA liner walls, and Depleted Uranium Mesh to defeat
pretty much anything thrown at it....when you add in the Kontakt ERA,
it becomes insane....

I'm giving the Mechies every advantage. That just makes it all the more satisfying when we crush them under our treads.

[Sea Skimmer]

In terms of heavy armor you and I seem to be on the same wavelength shep

Let's not even get into the ballistic shapes of the T-90 and the Gundam/Zakus,
respectively, then it becomes positively EVIL.

Or the fact that they employ something called "Camouflage" and the crews are trained in the art of "Concealment"

[Darth Wong]

Ah. That explains the lovely footprints in the ground whenever the thing starts running. Still, because the unit lifts it's feet up to run, sinking somewhat into the ground does not substantially limit the unit's speed (seen), and so is irrelevant.

If the thing leaves footprints in solid ground, it will sink in mud. And a bipedal locomotion system requires that it apply MORE force in order to push out, which will only dig it in deeper.

So? From a tactical standpoint, if it can either move or shoot but not both, this is a problem.

Then human infantry is tactically limited?

Of course it is. Are you suggesting that infantry has the range and accuracy of tanks? Infantry has its uses, armour has its uses. They are complementary.

Of course not - if we didn't, then your argument about toppling would make sense.

OK, what's the offset between a mech's centre of gravity and the vector passing down the axis of its gun when it fires in most cases? What's the largest this offset has ever been?

His point is that the high-velocity shells would not nessecarily shatter on impact, thus making them viable even if they are low mass.

And if they are low-mass, then how does this support his larger argument, which is that these weapons are as powerful as tank guns?

A T90 has WW2-era armour? Fascinating. Which military handbook did you get this from? Or did you pull it from your ass?

Wong, quit constructing strawmen about what is an obvious analogy to the relative strengths of the two armors.

Really! So now he's claiming that the strength of Gundam armour is some sort of super-advanced material which makes Chobham armour look weak, and is so much stronger that it can achieve equal strength despite being wafer-thin? Then we get right back to the question of what the fuck this material is supposed to be, and why we should take this utterly baseless claim at face value, particularly when, as noted by others, Gundam armour visibly undergoes brittle failure in combat, thus indicating poor impact toughness.

[MKSheppard]

Or the fact that they employ something called "Camouflage" and the crews are trained in the art of "Concealment"

Or the fact that their concept of a fair fight is to blow away the enemy at
long ranges, not rush in and fight hand to hand.....and that Russian tankers
wouldn't be so stupid as to sacrifice themselves or their tank for some stupid
medevial-style chivalric notion over a woman.

[data_link]

I seem to recall this coming up before--using indirect fire, they can. (see half-dozen times T-90 ranges have been quoted on the three threads this arguement has spread over...)

Whoopdedo. And the gundams can hit that far using direct fire. See 08th MS Team, ep. 8

Second, as pointed out by Vympel, can yours?

Yes. See above.

Third, at long range, the turret doesn't have to move much, even if the target is running flat out perpendicular...about 4 degrees every 5 seconds, at most (assuming target is moving at 240km/h, on the hoverjets this model of mecha doesn't have, IIRC...)

Wonderful. But it can only target at that range using indirect fire, which isn't very useful against a target that isn't nice enough to stay still. And that's not even factoring in the time it takes to line up the shot. Any competent gundam pilot will move immediately after firing - meaning that your shell only hits where the gundam was five seconds ago.

MKsheppard, for all his vitrol, also has a point with that aircraft example: These guns (even to take out WWII tanks) put out SHITLOADS of recoil. Can your mech even stay pointing in the right direction after shooting?

More than that, it's recoil does not affect it substantially.

MKsheppard, for all his vitrol, also has a point with that aircraft example: These guns (even to take out WWII tanks) put out SHITLOADS of recoil. Can your mech even stay pointing in the right direction after shooting?[/quote]

[MKSheppard]

Or the fact that they employ something called "Camouflage" and the crews are trained in the art of "Concealment"

Hell, the mecha heads assume that the tank crews are complete morons
and will forget about something called a "reverse gear" in their tanks.

[MKSheppard]

More than that, it's recoil does not affect it substantially.

Did you miss my post about where I said that the plane was
not that useful and was removed from service? Only 25 of those
were made, because the recoil was so bad it FUCKING BENT
the propellor blades and fucked over the airframe....

[MKSheppard]

Did you miss my post about where I said that the plane was
not that useful and was removed from service? Only 25 of those
were made, because the recoil was so bad it FUCKING BENT
the propellor blades and fucked over the airframe....

Oops, misread that post....dammit Datalink, make sure your fucking
quotes are closed and work....

*switches over to the blue message board style*

[data_link]

More than that, it's recoil does not affect it substantially.

Did you miss my post about where I said that the plane was
not that useful and was removed from service? Only 25 of those
were made, because the recoil was so bad it FUCKING BENT
the propellor blades and fucked over the airframe....

Yes. Your beloved plane cannot withstand the recoil of its own guns, the Gundams can. You seem to subscribe to the fallacy of saying "it cannot possibly do the things it did, so it obviously did not do them." May I remind you that this was how darkstar "proved" that the Death Star did not blow up Alderran.

[MKSheppard]

Yes. Your beloved plane cannot withstand the recoil of its own guns, the Gundams can.

They were firing a full bore PAK 75mm anti tank gun, with no modifications
save for converting it to semi automatic fire. Not exactly quite applicable
to your famous 120mm grenade launchers.

[Vejut]

Whoopdedo. And the gundams can hit that far using direct fire. See 08th MS Team, ep. 8

just refuting the point that they can't fire that far...

Yes. See above.

You have any evidence of them being able to target/hit things at 10km? esp. things with a small frontal area? I don't recall seeing it.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 11:57 pm Post subject:
Vejut wrote:
I seem to recall this coming up before--using indirect fire, they can. (see half-dozen times T-90 ranges have been quoted on the three threads this arguement has spread over...)


Whoopdedo. And the gundams can hit that far using direct fire. See 08th MS Team, ep. 8

Vejut wrote:
Second, as pointed out by Vympel, can yours?


Yes. See above.

Vejut wrote:
Third, at long range, the turret doesn't have to move much, even if the target is running flat out perpendicular...about 4 degrees every 5 seconds, at most (assuming target is moving at 240km/h, on the hoverjets this model of mecha doesn't have, IIRC...)


Wonderful. But it can only target at that range using indirect fire, which isn't very useful against a target that isn't nice enough to stay still. And that's not even factoring in the time it takes to line up the shot. Any competent gundam pilot will move immediately after firing - meaning that your shell only hits where the gundam was five seconds ago.

Ever heard of something called leading your target? Most tanks don't stand still when shooting, never mind in between shots either.

More than that, it's recoil does not affect it substantially.

and broken props, airframe damage, and loss of speed isn't substantial? what IS?

[Vympel]

Data_link, I'd appreciate it if you respond to my posts. They are on page 5.

[Vejut]

We do know the recoil on the plane (and the plane ain't made of tinfoil...the idea was to give you an idea of how much bloody recoil we're talking about. If gundam guns fired as hard as you claimed, there would be even more.)

What we're trying to show is NOT: "it can't do the things it did", we're trying to show "it can't do the things you say it did". It fired a Machine Cannon is a given. (MG's are solid shot). How big, and how powerful a cannon is what we are trying to figure out.

[Howedar]

If it doesn't show a lot of recoil, it cannot be a powerful weapon. Thats just how it is. Whether or not the Mech can take said recoil without damage is irrelivent.

[data_link]

A human must be stationary if they want to hit anything. A modern tank can hit moving targets on the move with no problem.

True, but that does not prevent infantry (or Mobile Suits) from being useful tactically.

My other two points that you mentioned in that post were clarifications of Dendrobius's post, not supporting arguments.

Of course he won't. That way, we'll have something quantifiable, which is the last thing mecha fans want.

No, the last thing Mecha fans want is people like MKSheppard who say that because mecha aren't realistic militarily that any story that features them must be crap. As for quantifiable numbers - quite frankly I'll leave that to Dendrobius, since he's the one who insisted on making his claims. I'm only here to help clarify the misconceptions purported by MKSheppard and his ilk - not to prove or disprove the argument. This isn't my fight. OH, and Dendrobius - if you were just keeping this going in the hopes that more competent debaters would step in and support your argument, be aware that I am not doing this. You need to fight your own battles.

Oh and these mechas will be hitting dots that are about 2m tall at ten km while they're moving, and these shots will penetrate to boot.

In 08th MS Team, episode 8, we see them firing beam weapons at moving targets 10 km away (stated). Now granted, these were somewhat larger than your average tank, but considering that they literally melted right through the Zaku's arm in less than half a second, I'd say that they are powerful enough to do serious damage to a mere tank. BTW - Dendrobius was quite mistaken to use this instance to prove the velocity of the machine gun shells, since they were firing Beam weapons, not machine guns.

[MKSheppard]

In 08th MS Team, episode 8, we see them firing beam weapons at moving targets 10 km away (stated). Now granted, these were somewhat larger than your average tank.......

Somewhat.....LARGER? That's the understatement of the fucking CENTURY,
along with "Michael Jackson is Black"

[Sea Skimmer]

In 08th MS Team, episode 8, we see them firing beam weapons at moving targets 10 km away (stated). Now granted, these were somewhat larger than your average tank.......

Somewhat.....LARGER? That's the understatement of the fucking CENTURY,
along with "Michael Jackson is Black"

Fucking A. These mecha are so big plain old 155 tube artillery could get opening salvo hits without using guided round at twenty klicks.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Fucking A. These mecha are so big plain old 155 tube artillery could get opening salvo hits without using guided round at twenty klicks.

If the artillery could lead and track the mecha at that range...
However big the target is, there is still the matter of actually HITTING it if it is mobile. And the mecha are pretty mobile.

[Howedar]

HELLOOOOOO? IS THERE ANYONE HOME IN THAT EMPTY SKULL OF YOURS?

That is not an argument! Its funny hyperbole (but only barely)!