How would you reform America's education system?

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-05-31 07:09pm

Make the students disciplined, hard working and prompt. That's the bottom line of what I'd do.

As for how to do that, well, that's a complicated matter on it's own, but just doing some things the old system was doing would be a benefit.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-05-31 07:41pm

I would issue government legislation that automatically failed and then held back the bottom two or three percent of every school, every year. There's no reason to continue advancing students who are not performing up to grade-level so they can slow down the rest of their schools.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-05-31 07:46pm

Master of Ossus wrote:I would issue government legislation that automatically failed and then held back the bottom two or three percent of every school, every year. There's no reason to continue advancing students who are not performing up to grade-level so they can slow down the rest of their schools.

What if the students are all around the A-B level?

It'd probably be better if you failed the students that were actually doing the failing, such as getting only D's and F's.

Other than that, I agree with you.

Another thing I would do is bring bak corporal punishment to schools. Nowadays, if a teacher tells a student to do something, the student will either laugh or pull a knife out. The only way to prevent some students from stomping on you is to stomp on them first. Other students usually get the idea.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-05-31 07:58pm

Castor Troy wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:I would issue government legislation that automatically failed and then held back the bottom two or three percent of every school, every year. There's no reason to continue advancing students who are not performing up to grade-level so they can slow down the rest of their schools.
What if the students are all around the A-B level?

Then the school obviously isn't pushing hard enough. It is realistically not possible for a reasonably-sized school to be made up entirely of good, or even respectable, students. Even if there were such a mythical school, some of them would inherently be worse than others, and this measure would intensify competition between students while also increasing the sense of privilege in those that were allowed to move on.

It'd probably be better if you failed the students that were actually doing the failing, such as getting only D's and F's.

The problem with that is that it gives the teachers the easy way out by passing everybody (which is, more or less, what they do now). When you actually force them to make the hard choices (ie. One of your students must be held back--which one is the worst one?), then they'll have a much more meaningful choice to make while simultaneously being absolved of much of the responsibility (and, hopefully, the anxiety) associated with holding a student back.

Another thing I would do is bring bak corporal punishment to schools. Nowadays, if a teacher tells a student to do something, the student will either laugh or pull a knife out. The only way to prevent some students from stomping on you is to stomp on them first. Other students usually get the idea.

Well, I don't like corporal punishment in schools since it has a tendency to be abused, and can potentially create situations in which students are literally afraid to come to school because of their teachers. I do agree with your general idea, though, that punishments should be more stringent for misbehavior in school.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-31 08:22pm

Nowadays, HIGHSCHOOL students are the ones who have a bad teacher-student relationship. There's no need to bring back whippings to elementary school. Teens, with their mood swings, their depressions, their rashness, are a more difficult quandary. By now, it is too late to bring back physical punishments; the public mind has already ingrained the belief that whipping is not the answer: furthermore, I don't believe it is. The problem is that students can't relate to their teachers; this brings us back to the problem of teacher's unions, the inability to fire anyone who's shitty, etc.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-05-31 08:54pm

No, the problem is that teachers never learn to respect their teachers at all. This could be at least aided by the early use of corperal punishment, or perhaps some goddamned better parenting.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-31 09:01pm

Zero132132 wrote:No, the problem is that teachers never learn to respect their teachers at all. This could be at least aided by the early use of corperal punishment, or perhaps some goddamned better parenting.

So, we have a bunch of self-hating teachers running around, do we? Can't have that, can we?

JK.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-31 09:03pm

Corporal punishment in school is fucking stupid and the people who think that it will solve the education system's problems are also fucking stupid. Ever go through Wal-Mart? Ever notice that the worst, brattiest kids in the store are also the ones whose parents slap them around in public?

Some kids are being raised wrong. No amount of beatings in school will solve that problem, and school-administered beatings would create huge problems of their own, not least of which is the fact that if some teacher hits my kid, I will get my brother and a few friends, wait for him in the parking lot, and bury his fucking head in the grille of my car. He'll have to come back later to pick up his fucking teeth from the asphalt.

You want to solve the problem of kids who are violent and defiant in school? The solution is simple: eject them from school. Expel the worthless fuckers since they will never amount to anything anyway. There's your solution.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2005-05-31 09:19pm

End Compulsory Attendence at the high-school level. Anyone who has been to an American high school in the last few decades knows that there are going to be losers who don't care about their education and don't want to be there. It's not a matter of the teachers being poor, or the education system in general sucking; it's a function of the fact that there are simply bad kids who can't think in the long-term and don't care about education. Sometimes this results from bad parenting, but whatever the reason, it's bullshit that these kids should have to be forced to attend school and waste resources that could be used on kids who actually give a damn about their future. Let the little smartass pricks and cunts with their fucking idiotic plans ignore the advice of everyone who knows better. Let them flip burgers for a living and live with the consequences of their actions; maybe they'll come around and go out for a GED someday. Until then, keep them the fuck out of schools so that the teachers don't have to waste time yelling at them every day for being such worthless fuck-offs (there were times my senior year where this would take up ten or more minutes of class, unbelievable).

This is sort of a pet peeve of mine; I was in all honors/AP classes but Math, so I had lots of experience with these types of kids.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-31 10:27pm

That sounds slightly retarded to me. Kids don't know any fucking better; attendance at school will plunge, and many kids who would've otherwise done reasonably well will be like, "What the fuck? My friends are out getting stoned, and I'm in here?!?"

Peer pressure is another thing to take into account. Think about it: there's no punishment for skipping classes, so students'll just walk off and get laid with their gf. I can see teen-pregnancies soaring, as parents have abso-fucking-lutely no clue where their kids are. "Yeah, I'm going to school Mom."

All in all, it is unfair to make the generalization that all kids who find school boring would do badly anyways. I didn't find school too fun, but I still want that punishment for skipping there, to make sure that (in a fit of rashness) I don't start getting into the habit of playing hooky.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-05-31 10:43pm

Darth Wong - I'm not saying that we should be using corporal punishment at every single instance of discipline, which is what turns up these brats at Wal Mart. I'm saying that if it's necessary, then yes, we should be using corporal punishment.

It won't solve all of our problems, though, it's just one of many that might help us.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-31 11:11pm

Please define what you would consider an instance of justified whipping. I.E. whaddya gotta do to get ass-slapped by *insert sexy teacher here*.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-05-31 11:14pm

Well certainly not whipping. That's just taking it a little too far.

I'm just saying that they should try using the paddle in grade schools, only if it's necessary.

In the high school, they should be able to do something, at least, like make them do push-ups.

Again, I'm not saying that we should be beating them at every chance, but if the students are undisciplined and are out of control, then the teachers should have the ability to shape them up.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-05-31 11:28pm

Crap... I guess that was a bad mistake to make in my earlier post. Of course, you fine folk know that I meant that it was a case of dipshit students having no respect for teachers.

Darth Wong, I have to say, you may be a smart guy, but your ideas on this are a bit fucked. Most kids won't give a fuck about high school if they aren't being forced to go. School attendence would go FAR down, and more and more dipshit kids would think it perfectly fine to drop out. It would also have a significant impact on the work force, as tons of new young ass holes would be looking for jobs that require no education. Besides, there are always those people who spend a good deal of time fucking up before they decide to be something. These people wouldn't probably ever get to trying to amount to anything if they could just forget education...

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-31 11:47pm

Castor Troy wrote:Well certainly not whipping. That's just taking it a little too far.

I'm just saying that they should try using the paddle in grade schools, only if it's necessary.

In the high school, they should be able to do something, at least, like make them do push-ups.

Again, I'm not saying that we should be beating them at every chance, but if the students are undisciplined and are out of control, then the teachers should have the ability to shape them up.

Push-ups? Paddles? Hellooo...we're looking for a student-teacher relationship that's GOOD. Do you have any idea how comical it would be to ask a senior to do pushups (especially if he benches around 250). Paddles would be degrading, causing students not to fear teachers, but to hate them. Not a good idea.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-31 11:49pm

Castor Troy wrote:Well certainly not whipping. That's just taking it a little too far.

I'm just saying that they should try using the paddle in grade schools, only if it's necessary.

If you're a teacher and you hit my kid, I will either hit you or have you charged for assault.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-31 11:53pm

*notices teacher is 6' 3", 250 lbs* "Let's go with option two."

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-06-01 12:01am

All right, so scratch corporal punishment. Any options for disciplining students if they need it?

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2005-06-01 12:19am

Castor Troy wrote:Make the students disciplined, hard working and prompt. That's the bottom line of what I'd do.

And after lunch do I get to violate the 2nd Law? Just as something easy to do, y'know.

Children aren't stupid. They can memorize top40 playlists, give a full account of the intimate lives of their idols and run a mostly functional social justice system in their peergroups. Why, because the culture dictates they must be good at this.

Contempory culture does not value learning. It values ego.

Another thing I would do is bring bak corporal punishment to schools. Nowadays, if a teacher tells a student to do something, the student will either laugh or pull a knife out. The only way to prevent some students from stomping on you is to stomp on them first. Other students usually get the idea.

We in the 21st century prefer more subtle methods that don't teach kids that violence is the preferred method. Interestingly enough, game theory works quite well.

Melchior · Post by **Melchior** » 2005-06-01 05:19am

Zero132132 wrote:No, the problem is that teachers never learn to respect their teachers at all. This could be at least aided by the early use of corperal punishment, or perhaps some goddamned better parenting.

The problem could be that many teachers deserve no respect. And this "lack of respect" could be at most a minor problem, compared to, for example, a law that forces schools to teach creationism.
Also, as others said, corporal punishment in schools is pure idiocy.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-06-01 05:46am

I think some harder pushing could be used in the elementary levels. I don't see any reason why 3rd and 4th graders can't be doing algebra, the scientific method and basic human history instead of reviewing addition, doing reports on penguins and who Benedict Arnold was.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2005-06-01 07:30am

HemlockGrey wrote:I think some harder pushing could be used in the elementary levels. I don't see any reason why 3rd and 4th graders can't be doing algebra, the scientific method and basic human history instead of reviewing addition, doing reports on penguins and who Benedict Arnold was.

Not sure of that, most 3-4th graders I know won't be able to grasp many concepts in algebra.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2005-06-01 07:35am

Ace Pace wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:I think some harder pushing could be used in the elementary levels. I don't see any reason why 3rd and 4th graders can't be doing algebra, the scientific method and basic human history instead of reviewing addition, doing reports on penguins and who Benedict Arnold was.
Not sure of that, most 3-4th graders I know won't be able to grasp many concepts in algebra.

Thats because most of them havent been taught. The stuff is utterly fucking trivial.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-06-01 08:40am

It's true. I think I could've gone far beyond the curriculum, and so could many others, when I was in elementary school. It all goes back to those lagging few that hold everyone else back. There were few advanced classes so early in my schooling, so everyone was held back. We need remedial classes early on, to separate the dumbhshits from everyone else.

Melchior · Post by **Melchior** » 2005-06-01 08:48am

wolveraptor wrote:It's true. I think I could've gone far beyond the curriculum, and so could many others, when I was in elementary school. It all goes back to those lagging few that hold everyone else back.

You can advance faster in some fields of maths, but in others (mainly geometry), it is simply impossible to go ahead: you lack the brain development required.