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Okay two replies since a nice weekend getting shot up with Anthrax has made me feel all hyper-marine and I just need to throw my $.02 in on a couple things here without quoting.

1) SE.A.L.s vs SAS is an apples to oranges comparison, they are equiped for different sorts of missions and each unit is so thuroughly capable in the limied number of fields that SecOps Forces are needed in that lines will be entirely biased by subjectivism. The only thing I would say is that in and around water the Seal will probably be better but even that edge is so miniscule as to not matter.

2) The Incident in Mogadishu (two things)
a) They were perfectly correct to go after the downed choppers and for more reasons than just getting the pilots back.
b) They completely fucked up the execution of geting there.

Let me expand on that. Those Black Hawks, despite being downed contained in them all sorts of nice advanced electronics and classified materials that add into their already hefty price tag. There is a reason why, as we saw in the movie, the vehicle got bombed after it was secured...to make sure nothing was left of value. The pilots themselves while not expendable were nonetheless not the most valuable thing in those vehicles from a strategic viewpoint (things like com and decrypt gear is expensive as hell to have get out of your hands).

Now as to execution therein lies the problem. The Rangers, for all their dedication and training, forgot some basic axioms and had a large number of casualties as a result.most of that as a result of failure of imagination at higher headquarters. anyway the key thing they forgot was:

HOLD THE HIGH GROUND.

A city block is like a canyon, the street is the valley and the rooftops are the heights...the rangers did not control the heights and thus limited thier fields of fire, their ability to observe. furthermore they gained no cover and lost concealment (as they could be observed from above relatively easily). A move, on the gorund, to the crash site SHOULD have required clearing houses and buildings on the way over, whcih obviously is too slow. Given that one simpy has to wonder why it never occured to headquarters not to bring the troops back and mount them back into the Helo's to insert to the crash zone as total time to target would not have been noticeably greater AND it would have made the initial missions more sucessful. Furthermore the two Delta snipers who went in on the second chopper could have been dropped with the first, helping to sustain that site until add-on forces arrived.

Anyway the men there did the best they could under the circumstances and men died because they couldn't think of a better way of doing it, they'll have to live with that for the rest of their lives and that's enough editorializing by me.

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:

MKSheppard wrote: Who would want to use M-60s anyway? They aren't that common on the
world market....so that's another dead giveaway.....

An AK clone....that narrows it down to 50 bazillion people.....

And besides M60s are a bitch to carry. USe a PKM instead.

The FN Minimi (SAW to the Americans) as it's available all over the world.

Rob Wilson wrote: The FN Minimi (SAW to the Americans) as it's available all over the world.

the FN Minimi, yeah, but not the M-249 SAW, as it has US specific
markings on it.

(americans LOVE to fuck with foreign weapons.....we had Beretta
Redesign their winning 9mm pistol, the 92 into the 92F before
we'd accept it into Service)

Rob Wilson wrote:

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:

MKSheppard wrote: Who would want to use M-60s anyway? They aren't that common on the
world market....so that's another dead giveaway.....

An AK clone....that narrows it down to 50 bazillion people.....

And besides M60s are a bitch to carry. USe a PKM instead.

The FN Minimi (SAW to the Americans) as it's available all over the world.

I would have said that, but I didn't know it wasn't exclusive to the Belgians and US.

CmdrWilkens wrote:Okay two replies since a nice weekend getting shot up with Anthrax has made me feel all hyper-marine and I just need to throw my $.02 in on a couple things here without quoting.

Let me expand on that. Those Black Hawks, despite being downed contained in them all sorts of nice advanced electronics and classified materials that add into their already hefty price tag. There is a reason why, as we saw in the movie, the vehicle got bombed after it was secured...to make sure nothing was left of value. The pilots themselves while not expendable were nonetheless not the most valuable thing in those vehicles from a strategic viewpoint (things like com and decrypt gear is expensive as hell to have get out of your hands).

Still could have destroyed the choppers from the air if they couldn't rescue the men or get there physically. But like I said I simply don't know enough about the situation to make an informed statement. All I know is remembered bits of the news and the film (which is unlikely to be that accurate.). If your guys there die, then unlucky, they get paid to take risks.

MKSheppard wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote: The FN Minimi (SAW to the Americans) as it's available all over the world.

the FN Minimi, yeah, but not the M-249 SAW, as it has US specific
markings on it.

(americans LOVE to fuck with foreign weapons.....we had Beretta
Redesign their winning 9mm pistol, the 92 into the 92F before
we'd accept it into Service)

However with the -249 we really didn't do anything to it and trying to claim that the -249 and the Minimi are different is like trying to claim there is a difference between a Dodge Caravan and a Plymoth Voyager...they're the same vehicle with different names.

CmdrWilkens wrote:2) The Incident in Mogadishu (two things)
a) They were perfectly correct to go after the downed choppers and for more reasons than just getting the pilots back.
b) They completely fucked up the execution of geting there.

Isn't that the same thing I was saying? Instead of diverting their mission, they should have mounted a rescue operation after getting back to base? By all means, try to get them back (and destroy the equipment; good point), but be rational about it and don't lose more men than you save (especially if they're already dead; the "never leave a man behind" credo makes no sense whatsoever for corpses).

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:
The FN Minimi (SAW to the Americans) as it's available all over the world.

I would have said that, but I didn't know it wasn't exclusive to the Belgians and US.

FN make an exclusive weapon? Hell that's like an Exclusive Whore.

They sell everywhere they can, and licence where they cannot sell.

Darth Wong wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote:2) The Incident in Mogadishu (two things)
a) They were perfectly correct to go after the downed choppers and for more reasons than just getting the pilots back.
b) They completely fucked up the execution of geting there.

Isn't that the same thing I was saying? Instead of diverting their mission, they should have mounted a rescue operation after getting back to base? By all means, try to get them back (and destroy the equipment; good point), but be rational about it and don't lose more men than you save.

Close to what you said yes They COULD have gone in of foot and done so successfully BUT they didn't.

Ah.

I stand corrected.

CmdrWilkens wrote: However with the -249 we really didn't do anything to it and trying to claim that the -249 and the Minimi are different is like trying to claim there is a difference between a Dodge Caravan and a Plymoth Voyager...they're the same vehicle with different names.

We didn't change anything with the Minimi?

My god, what is the world coming to when we don't have to Americanize
stuff?

Well, they changed the name, at least.

And is it me or does Beretta M92F sound better than US Army M9?

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote: I would have said that, but I didn't know it wasn't exclusive to the Belgians and US.

If it were exclsive that would be the best reason to use it (if your not American or Belgian). For instance, give German soldiers CETME's and then leave one behind and suddenly everyone is pointing the finger at Spain. Give your guys M-16's and everyone looks at America as the culprit. Give them SA-80's and have them beat the shit out of you for giving them useless lumps of shit

Rob Wilson wrote:

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote: I would have said that, but I didn't know it wasn't exclusive to the Belgians and US.

If it were exclsive that would be the best reason to use it (if your not American or Belgian). For instance, give German soldiers CETME's and then leave one behind and suddenly everyone is pointing the finger at Spain. Give your guys M-16's and everyone looks at America as the culprit. Give them SA-80's and have them beat the shit out of you for giving them useless lumps of shit

Well with the -16s we made them the 2nd most popular export firearm after the AK-47 so you'd have to get your hands on an A2 version to frame the US

CmdrWilkens wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote: I would have said that, but I didn't know it wasn't exclusive to the Belgians and US.

If it were exclsive that would be the best reason to use it (if your not American or Belgian). For instance, give German soldiers CETME's and then leave one behind and suddenly everyone is pointing the finger at Spain. Give your guys M-16's and everyone looks at America as the culprit. Give them SA-80's and have them beat the shit out of you for giving them useless lumps of shit

Well with the -16s we made them the 2nd most popular export firearm after the AK-47 so you'd have to get your hands on an A2 version to frame the US

And framing the UK is even harder, who in their right mind is going to buy/steal an SA-80?

Rob Wilson wrote:

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote: I would have said that, but I didn't know it wasn't exclusive to the Belgians and US.

If it were exclsive that would be the best reason to use it (if your not American or Belgian). For instance, give German soldiers CETME's and then leave one behind and suddenly everyone is pointing the finger at Spain. Give your guys M-16's and everyone looks at America as the culprit. Give them SA-80's and have them beat the shit out of you for giving them useless lumps of shit

SA-80's worthless for beating, thing would shatter on the first blow.

Sea Skimmer wrote:
SA-80's worthless for beating, thing would shatter on the first blow.

Put the Bayonet on the end and use them as darts. Besides the first blow shatters the plastic furniture which embeds itself into the guy your beating and the stamped steel body keeps bending and tearing providing useful cutting edges. Once your finished you insert the crumpled lumps of steel up his rectum and that way he never tries to give them to you again. Alternatively grab the nearest Pick-helve and smash his skull down through his pelvis.

I actually think it would be something of a tie. The SAS would be better in urban warfare, but it would be an even contest in open ground and jungle (although I'mtempted ot say the SEALs might have an edge in the jungle, with what we learned in 'Nam).

The SAS invented Spec-Ops, but I guess I'll just pander to cheap-ass patriotism and say SEALs overall. Nothing personal, England...

Whats the best assault rifile in use?

In terms of reliability, and firepower, cost?

Would the M16/203 be best interms of suppression fire?

And also, Wilson, what sniper rifile does the British Army use? Isn't it the L92?

Ted wrote:

Whats the best assault rifile in use?

R4/Galil

In terms of reliability, and firepower, cost?

R4/Galil

Would the M16/203 be best interms of suppression fire?

R4/Galil with 203, or same with rifle grenades

And also, Wilson, what sniper rifile does the British Army use? Isn't it the L92?

L96A1 made by Accuracy International, before that was the L42a1 by Parker Hale.

Those that play CounterStrike will know the L96A1 as the AWM sniper rifle (for whatever strange reason on the Coders behalf)

No obvious winner in this one, under any circumstances. Basically, it would come down to the personal initiatve of the field commanders, and whoever got the drop on the other side. Whoever gets the first whack would likely be doing it through an ambush, and thus would likely be the winner.

Whats the R4/Galil?

Ted wrote:Whats the R4/Galil?

Galil =Israelized version of the AK

R4 = South Africanized version of AK

Ted wrote:Whats the R4/Galil?

Galil is an Isreali Assualt rifle that uase the same working parts/mechanism as the AK family but in a better produced more accurate body (AK's all about volume of fire not accuracy). So you have the robustness of the AK and the accuracy of a G3/M-16/etc.

R4 is the South African licenced build of the Galil.

I should probably PM this to Shep, but since it's kinda related I'll ask it here. Shep, have you ever had a change to try any Sako/Valmet assault rifles? I've heard that Sakos are quite popular in the United States... (the original Galils were based on Valmet M/62s)