B5 planetkillers

[Crossover_Maniac]

Link for the above excerpt, because I had never seen it before either...

Is this what you were looking for: http://lists.cs.columbia.edu/pipermail/ ... 02086.html.

Sorry

[His Divine Shadow]

I don't doubt the VPK can destroy planets, as in fragmenting them, it did that to Arkadia 7, but no other planets that I am aware of.

Logically, that would imply that the generating the energy required to overcome an earth like planets gravitational binding energy is too great a strain for the cybernetic organism to do repeatedly, alteast without rest.

Or it cannot and instead used the rest of the fleet, or had other VPK's, Marcus did say ships with an S IIRC.

Either theory is likely, and B5Wars statement is ludicrous, but it's apparently canon, so meh.

[Master of Ossus]

Part of my problem with the whole thing of the VPK actually shattering worlds is that it appears to be inconsistent with the rest of the series, as it would demand that the VPK was orders of magnitude more powerful than the SPK. This does not appear to be possible, as if anything the Shadows appear to be more powerful than the Vorlons.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Part of my problem with the whole thing of the VPK actually shattering worlds is that it appears to be inconsistent with the rest of the series, as it would demand that the VPK was orders of magnitude more powerful than the SPK. This does not appear to be possible, as if anything the Shadows appear to be more powerful than the Vorlons.

It actually shows how wasteful the Vorlons are. Think about it. A planet is 99.99% inert mass with no military value. Why destroy the entire planet when you can burrow bombs from underground and turn the surface of the planet inside out by thousands of underground explosions forcing trillions of tons of molten rock to the surface.

[His Divine Shadow]

Part of my problem with the whole thing of the VPK actually shattering worlds is that it appears to be inconsistent with the rest of the series, as it would demand that the VPK was orders of magnitude more powerful than the SPK. This does not appear to be possible, as if anything the Shadows appear to be more powerful than the Vorlons.

I know, wich is why the statement from B5Wars makes no sense, I really wonder if JMs knew what he was signing onto there.

Even my upper limit calcs of ten thousand 1000GT missiles for the SPK yields only 4e25joules compared to the minimum of 2e32j for the VPK, if does actually shatter worlds.
That would make the VPK 5.000.000 times stronger than the SPK.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Part of my problem with the whole thing of the VPK actually shattering worlds is that it appears to be inconsistent with the rest of the series, as it would demand that the VPK was orders of magnitude more powerful than the SPK. This does not appear to be possible, as if anything the Shadows appear to be more powerful than the Vorlons.

I know, wich is why the statement from B5Wars makes no sense, I really wonder if JMs knew what he was signing onto there.

Even my upper limit calcs of ten thousand 1000GT missiles for the SPK yields only 4e25joules compared to the minimum of 2e32j for the VPK, if does actually shatter worlds.
That would make the VPK 5.000.000 times stronger than the SPK.

Then the VPK is 5,000,000 times stronger than the SPK.

[Master of Ossus]

NTM the fact that the VPK appears to destroy worlds in only a few seconds, while the SPK required hours to bomb a planet, and possibly longer. This would make the VPK more effective in every way to the SPK.

Incidentally, we're not really sure how wasteful the VPK is. Remember that Shadow ships burrow deep underground, and that the Vorlon were trying to destroy all Shadow influence. I don't really have a problem with that particular aspect of the weapon.

[His Divine Shadow]

AGAIN NO EDITING! WORTHLESS; THIS SUCKS!

that problem will have to be fixed in the future, anyhow, to continue on the VPK, it did shatter one planet, or the fleet did, wich had several VPK's.

But I guess in lieu of B5Wars one VPK did it, but we still know that they didn't do it again, I suspect very much that doing such a thing is very costly for the poor VPk wich is a living creature/cyborg.

[Crossover_Maniac]

NTM the fact that the VPK appears to destroy worlds in only a few seconds, while the SPK required hours to bomb a planet, and possibly longer. This would make the VPK more effective in every way to the SPK.

Incidentally, we're not really sure how wasteful the VPK is. Remember that Shadow ships burrow deep underground, and that the Vorlon were trying to destroy all Shadow influence. I don't really have a problem with that particular aspect of the weapon.

I watched the episodes when the SPK struck, it took only about a minute from the time the missiles were launched to the surface of the planet was being destroyed. Is the few hours the time it take for the Death Cloud to spread around the planet?

[Master of Ossus]

I don't think that B5Wars can be accepted above canon, because this appears to make no sense. Problem is, though, that the Vorlons are not that much more powerful than the Shadows. They appear to be weaker. It makes no sense, in lieu of continuity and balance, if the Vorlons are orders of magnitude more powerful than the Shadows.

Incidentally, why are atmospheric ships needed for survivors if the world was totally destroyed?

[His Divine Shadow]

Is the few hours the time it take for the Death Cloud to spread around the planet?

No, it can do that in minutes, that figure was stated after the missiles had penetrated and exploded.

[Crossover_Maniac]

I don't think that B5Wars can be accepted above canon, because this appears to make no sense. Problem is, though, that the Vorlons are not that much more powerful than the Shadows. They appear to be weaker. It makes no sense, in lieu of continuity and balance, if the Vorlons are orders of magnitude more powerful than the Shadows.

Incidentally, why are atmospheric ships needed for survivors if the world was totally destroyed?

The shuttles were needed to evacuate the safe havens, not the worlds attacked by VPK. The Vorlons were targeting the safe havens and Ivanova's broadcast was to inform citizens of the new list of refugee stations.

[His Divine Shadow]

The shuttles were needed to evacuate the safe havens, not the worlds attacked by VPK. The Vorlons were targeting the safe havens and Ivanova's broadcast was to inform citizens of the new list of refugee stations.

No.
Ivanova said "Survivors report massive damage on a planetary scale" and then she said "We're in special need of atmosphere capable shuttles, to evacuate survivors from the ground"

[Crossover_Maniac]

The shuttles were needed to evacuate the safe havens, not the worlds attacked by VPK. The Vorlons were targeting the safe havens and Ivanova's broadcast was to inform citizens of the new list of refugee stations.

No.
Ivanova said "Survivors report massive damage on a planetary scale" and then she said "We're in special need of atmosphere capable shuttles, to evacuate survivors from the ground"

From the official Star Wars website

Many residents of Alderaan who were offplanet when their homeworld was destroyed were quick to join the Rebellion, though a few became fanatical supporters of the Empire, blaming Alderaan's involvement with the Rebellion for its destruction. Alderaanian survivors operated the massive ion cannon on Hoth's Echo Base. Survivors who wished to continue a peaceful existence, and not be involved in combat, were transported to New Alderaan, an Alliance safe world.

and

All that remains of Alderaan today is an asteroid field known as the Graveyard. Many Alderaanian survivors return to the area, to pay respects to their deceased loved ones and revisit cherished memories of their dead world.

I think this speaks for itself concerning the definition of 'survivor'.

[Crossover_Maniac]

The shuttles were needed to evacuate the safe havens, not the worlds attacked by VPK. The Vorlons were targeting the safe havens and Ivanova's broadcast was to inform citizens of the new list of refugee stations.

No.
Ivanova said "Survivors report massive damage on a planetary scale" and then she said "We're in special need of atmosphere capable shuttles, to evacuate survivors from the ground"

That quote was taken from a broadcast Ivanova made telling refugee stations they were the next target of the Vorlons and to inform refugees of new refugee stations. You're reading that particular sentence out of the context with the rest of the broadcast.

[His Divine Shadow]

HELLO?
They wanted to evacuate survivors OFF the ground off the planet that was hit, the same ground from wich the survivors reported massive planetary damage.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Let's see:

1). Arkada 7 is 'no longer there'. IOW: no trace.

2). The Shadows destroyed Zha'Ha Dum in "Epiphanies"

3). The official B5Wars site said VPK can destroy planets smaller than a brown dwarf

4). JMS said VPK could destroy planets, himself.

The only argument against this is one or two pieces of dialogue that's taken out of context. Weigh against the evidence presented, it's rediculous to continue this argument.

[Darth Wong]

Let's see:
1). Arkada 7 is 'no longer there'. IOW: no trace.

No trace of the colony remains. You are assuming that this also means "no trace of the physical mass of the entire planet which contained that colony". This assumption of yours is fantasy; nothing more.

2). The Shadows destroyed Zha'Ha Dum in "Epiphanies"

Two points:

• Zha'ha'dum was their homeworld for millions of years. That's quite a bit of time to prepare it for their eventual departure. It does not imply the ability to do this to any other world.
• Zha'ha'dum was not a normal planet. It is obviously moon-sized or smaller with no molten mantle, given the enormous fissures which are gouged deep into the planet. Gravity would close such a large fissure in a normal planet-sized object.

3). The official B5Wars site said VPK can destroy planets smaller than a brown dwarf

You're resorting to the use of gaming sites as evidence, and you don't realize that you come off as desperate?

4). JMS said VPK could destroy planets, himself.

He also said that we can destroy planets today, using nuclear weapons. He obviously means "destroy" only in the sense that Hiroshima was "destroyed", even though the ground under the city was completely untouched and there were large numbers of survivors.

The only argument against this is one or two pieces of dialogue that's taken out of context.

Pot calling the kettle black. We aren't adding things to the dialogue, such as your mysterious conversion from "Arkada 7 is not there any more" to "The physical mass of the planet upon which the Arkada 7 colony was located is not there any more." We are only noting that Ivanova called for survivors from a planet attacked by the VPK, and you have been inventing all manner of ridiculous excuses to weasel out of having to explain this evidence or incorporate it into your pre-ordained conclusions.

Weigh against the evidence presented, it's rediculous to continue this argument.

Yes, you're being ridiculous.

[Master of Ossus]

The shuttles were needed to evacuate the safe havens, not the worlds attacked by VPK. The Vorlons were targeting the safe havens and Ivanova's broadcast was to inform citizens of the new list of refugee stations.

No.
Ivanova said "Survivors report massive damage on a planetary scale" and then she said "We're in special need of atmosphere capable shuttles, to evacuate survivors from the ground"

From the official Star Wars website

Many residents of Alderaan who were offplanet when their homeworld was destroyed were quick to join the Rebellion, though a few became fanatical supporters of the Empire, blaming Alderaan's involvement with the Rebellion for its destruction. Alderaanian survivors operated the massive ion cannon on Hoth's Echo Base. Survivors who wished to continue a peaceful existence, and not be involved in combat, were transported to New Alderaan, an Alliance safe world.

and

All that remains of Alderaan today is an asteroid field known as the Graveyard. Many Alderaanian survivors return to the area, to pay respects to their deceased loved ones and revisit cherished memories of their dead world.

I think this speaks for itself concerning the definition of 'survivor'.

If the B5 survivors were already off-world, why did they need to be evacuated? Why would they need atmosphere capable ships of doing so?

[Master of Ossus]

NTM the fact that the VPK appears to destroy worlds in only a few seconds, while the SPK required hours to bomb a planet, and possibly longer. This would make the VPK more effective in every way to the SPK.

Incidentally, we're not really sure how wasteful the VPK is. Remember that Shadow ships burrow deep underground, and that the Vorlon were trying to destroy all Shadow influence. I don't really have a problem with that particular aspect of the weapon.

I watched the episodes when the SPK struck, it took only about a minute from the time the missiles were launched to the surface of the planet was being destroyed. Is the few hours the time it take for the Death Cloud to spread around the planet?

Yes, and that planet was not destroyed by the attack (in the shattered planet meaning of the word). There was no massive damage done to it. It could not have been obliterated DS style. The amount of firepower shown during that clip is woefully insignificant to obliterate a planet in the traditional meaning of the word, it was only enough to destroy the surface of the world, and not even to obliterate that.

[Master of Ossus]

Also note how, when confronted with the actual connotations of the quote, Crossover Maniac fell back without admitting defeat and started spewing off how survivors of Alderaan were considered survivors, without explaining how those survivors could have been reporting massive damage (the thrust of the quote).

Remember that the VPK travels with a small fleet of Vorlon cruisers and fighters, and that the Vorlon fleet was attempting to eliminate everyone who was affected by the Shadows. The fleet should have moved to intercept fleeing refugees, particularly if they were a problem, as is implied elsewhere. Also, in B5 it is possible to engage other ships once they have entered hyperspace, so the Vorlon fleet should have attacked the refugee ships if they were fleeing from the planet just before it was destroyed.

[Darth Wong]

Also note how, when confronted with the actual connotations of the quote, Crossover Maniac fell back without admitting defeat and started spewing off how survivors of Alderaan were considered survivors, without explaining how those survivors could have been reporting massive damage (the thrust of the quote).

First sign of an overwhelmed debater: resorting to semantic bullshit. The word "survivors" has both possible meanings in the context of an attack. However, the need for emergency airlift evac and the eyewitness reporting of attack damage does not.

Remember that the VPK travels with a small fleet of Vorlon cruisers and fighters, and that the Vorlon fleet was attempting to eliminate everyone who was affected by the Shadows. The fleet should have moved to intercept fleeing refugees, particularly if they were a problem, as is implied elsewhere. Also, in B5 it is possible to engage other ships once they have entered hyperspace, so the Vorlon fleet should have attacked the refugee ships if they were fleeing from the planet just before it was destroyed.

Besides, a fleet of refugee ships would hardly need emergency airlift evac. We're just looking at a pack of fanatical B5ers trying to inflate the power of their favourite universe to "compete" with another (and ignoring obvious questions raised by their preferred solution, such as "is a VPK a million times more powerful than an SPK?")

[Isil`Zha]

NTM the fact that the VPK appears to destroy worlds in only a few seconds, while the SPK required hours to bomb a planet, and possibly longer. This would make the VPK more effective in every way to the SPK.

Incidentally, we're not really sure how wasteful the VPK is. Remember that Shadow ships burrow deep underground, and that the Vorlon were trying to destroy all Shadow influence. I don't really have a problem with that particular aspect of the weapon.

I watched the episodes when the SPK struck, it took only about a minute from the time the missiles were launched to the surface of the planet was being destroyed. Is the few hours the time it take for the Death Cloud to spread around the planet?

Yes, and that planet was not destroyed by the attack (in the shattered planet meaning of the word). There was no massive damage done to it. It could not have been obliterated DS style. The amount of firepower shown during that clip is woefully insignificant to obliterate a planet in the traditional meaning of the word, it was only enough to destroy the surface of the world, and not even to obliterate that.

So you could tell how much firepower those missles had even though they were detonating in the middle of the planet? Each of those missles had a minimum of 2 GT each from the dialogue, and a high-end of about 1000 GT each, and then mutliply that thousands of times for each missile... not enough firepower, eh?

[Darth Wong]

So you could tell how much firepower those missles had even though they were detonating in the middle of the planet?

They weren't detonating in the middle of the planet. The electromagnetic pulse strength in orbit is proof of that (not to mention the GT-range yield, which would have little effect on the surface if detonated around the core). They were obviously detonating deep in the crust, near the molten mantle which Ericcson erroneously described as the "molten core".

Each of those missles had a minimum of 2 GT each from the dialogue, and a high-end of about 1000 GT each, and then mutliply that thousands of times for each missile... not enough firepower, eh?

You seem to say that sarcastically, which means you obviously have not studied the subject of gravitational potential energy. Without sarcasm, a few thousand or even a few million gigatons are hopelessly inadequate to physically destroy a world, as opposed to merely wrecking its surface.

[Isil`Zha]

Whoops, been out of debating a while, I remember now, they said that they were detonating *near* the core....

and I had not studied that no, so I conceed the point.... well, especially since I was only skimming through the post I replied to the first time, but anyway, I already know the planet wasn't blown apart, so it's really a moot point.