StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Stark wrote:nTrek may not be the same universe as TOS/TNG/VOY/etc.

I was thinking this could be evidence of that. Transwarp failed gloriously in the OT and TNG made a big deal about interstellar transport being impossible. its not a "clean" reboot if Spock from the OT is crucial to the reboot, but iff thats a diffferent Spock then you know... fuck the OT. Spock didn't seem like what we would expect. He didn't try to put things back, he had knowledge we've never heard of and his ship is not typical of what we saw in OT.

The comic book writers wrote the book AFTER Abrahms was mostly done with the movie script in fact they visitied the set so they could make sure their comic was on track. So it doesn't technically follow that the movie was intended to follow the comic. The comic could jsut be a retelling of the events that led to the movie, as they happened in the OT and not in Movie old spock's home timeline.

Darth Wong wrote:Actually, Nero knew himself that it was a foolish thing to do. In the movie, when he hears that a human and a Vulcan are aboard his ship, he assumes that the Vulcan is Spock Prime and growls that he should have killed him when he had the chance. Dropping him within walking distance of a Federation outpost is pretty stupid even for a guy who's hell-bent on revenge.

I don't think he thought it was Spock Prime. The Enterprise was in orbit around Vulcan when he destroyed it and it was that Spock in his mind that destroyed the mining rig. Also, since when is 14 (give or take) kilometers "walking distance" on a frozen continent when the person has nothing but the clothes on his back? All that is predicated on the fact that Spock is aware of a Federation outpost being there from 100 plus years in his past in a universe that may or may not be his own. I'm not sure why people are even assuming he knows it is there. He obviously wasn't making a mad dash to get there as he was just chilling (pun intended) in his cave.

Unless he got the base location from Kirk during the mind-meld, he sure did know it was there. And it's obviously walking distance... because they walked there.

Stark wrote:Unless he got the base location from Kirk during the mind-meld, he sure did know it was there. And it's obviously walking distance... because they walked there.

Well obviously they walked there. I meant in the time it took Nero to beam him there and destroy Vulcan. Unless Spock just also happens to be a world class glacier/snow sprinter. And if he got the location from Kirk, which makes a little sense, well that would have been a little too late to save Vulcan wouldn't it.

Havok wrote:

Stark wrote:Unless he got the base location from Kirk during the mind-meld, he sure did know it was there. And it's obviously walking distance... because they walked there.

Well obviously they walked there. I meant in the time it took Nero to beam him there and destroy Vulcan. Unless Spock just also happens to be a world class glacier/snow sprinter. And if he got the location from Kirk, which makes a little sense, well that would have been a little too late to save Vulcan wouldn't it.

If he got the location from Kirk, you would think he wouldn't have felt the need to tell Kirk that there's a Federation outpost nearby. Moreover, I didn't get the impression that Kirk had any idea where he was in relation to the outpost, having probably lost his bearings while fleeing for his life.

Starfleet fire control systems appear to have a very interesting design feature: they can hit torpedo-sized objects, but only when they're fired at third parties, not themselves

It's a little hard to tell what's going on in the Kelvin battle but my impression was that it only lasted so long because it was shooting down missiles till it ran out of power.

As for Enterprise, it was hit with ONE missile over Vulcan and made no attempt to shoot it down, counting on their shields to do the trick.

So it may be another of Pike's deficiencies, not of Starfleet point-defense.

Anguirus wrote: So it may be another of Pike's deficiencies, not of Starfleet point-defense.

Let me get this straight. He did a fucking Dissertation on the Kelvin incident where the Narada's torpedoes blew through the Kelvin's shields like they weren't even there, and he wouldn't even try to shoot them down?

That stretches SOD for me. Someone that incompetent wouldn't make Janitor aboard the fleet's flagship, let alone captain.

Darksider wrote:

Anguirus wrote: So it may be another of Pike's deficiencies, not of Starfleet point-defense.

Let me get this straight. He did a fucking Dissertation on the Kelvin incident where the Narada's torpedoes blew through the Kelvin's shields like they weren't even there, and he wouldn't even try to shoot them down?

That stretches SOD for me. Someone that incompetent wouldn't make Janitor aboard the fleet's flagship, let alone captain.

I thought he said that he "did his dissertation on the Kelvin", meaning that he was aboard it for his dissertation studies.

More on that, the Kelvin was caught with its pants down, but still managed to fire off a few phaser blasts at the incoming missiles before the front of the ship got shredded. The phasers it was using to cover the fleeing shuttles were on the side of the ship and back, which didn't get smashed by the Narada. I don't see why it would make a difference; after all, the ultimate destination of the projectile isn't that important if you can target and track it. You'd think targeting something moving straight at you would be easier, since in terms of movement in an arc, such a projectile really isn't moving very much. Hitting something moving laterally to you and thus sweeping out a bigger arc would be a much harder shot.

Incidentally, in defense of the ridiculous fight scene, every character from Sulu to the Scary Romulan dudes actually did go for their guns first. Its just that in the standard cliche, those guns were immediately knocked away leading to fistcuffs. However, this is a StarTrek movie with TOS characters, you EXPECT that to happen. Besides, Sulu may have had a collapsible sabre on him, but at least it wasn't a katana or some thing even more over the top. I'm still not convinced after watching the movie twice that the sabre form of fencing didn't pick up an acrobatic style in the future as a natural extension of those speed demon fucker fencers that you encounter in fencing meets.

Stark wrote:Certainly - which is reflected in his evident pleasure at killing Kirk with his own hands later - but it's poor judgement regardless. 'Overconfidence' mght have been the wrong word.

I'd call it Standard Villany 101. However, given the way that Nero was nutso, I think that destroying such a potent symbol of the Federation (well, his version of the Federation, since it hadn't yet become that symbol) would have been something he wanted to do properly, rather than pump it full of missiles straight off. Maybe not the most prudent move, but somewhat justified by his ship being seemingly invincible to anything the Federation had.

Havok wrote:Well obviously they walked there. I meant in the time it took Nero to beam him there and destroy Vulcan. Unless Spock just also happens to be a world class glacier/snow sprinter. And if he got the location from Kirk, which makes a little sense, well that would have been a little too late to save Vulcan wouldn't it.

Well yeah, but it's not dumb from a 'Spock will save the day' perspective, rather a 'Spock will escape and inform my enemies as to my plans and capablities and make my life harder' perspective.

Anguirus, that characterisiation of the Kelvin battle seems pretty dubious. They take one hit and are fucked, a few more and they start abandoning ship... and then take about a dozen more. Then it rams the Narada. The point defence never took out an entire wave of projectiles, and Kelvin was took the equivalent of many, many crippling initial hits later. They must have hit already-broken hit locations.

And Gil, 'properly' apparently means 'in a needlessly complex personal fashion'. While it fits with Nero's lunacy, it doesn't make him a very interesting or intelligent adversary. Saying his ship is 'seemingly invincible' when they were totally crippled and captured after a battle with a far older ship seems strange.

Darth Wong wrote:

Havok wrote:

Stark wrote:Unless he got the base location from Kirk during the mind-meld, he sure did know it was there. And it's obviously walking distance... because they walked there.

Well obviously they walked there. I meant in the time it took Nero to beam him there and destroy Vulcan. Unless Spock just also happens to be a world class glacier/snow sprinter. And if he got the location from Kirk, which makes a little sense, well that would have been a little too late to save Vulcan wouldn't it.

If he got the location from Kirk, you would think he wouldn't have felt the need to tell Kirk that there's a Federation outpost nearby. Moreover, I didn't get the impression that Kirk had any idea where he was in relation to the outpost, having probably lost his bearings while fleeing for his life.

Well why did he tell Kirk something he already knew then? The computer in the escape pod told him there was a Fed outpost 14km from his position and IIRC in which direction it was. (Or he got that info from his tri-corder, or whatever he was making his log into) This lends some weight to my thought that the mind meld was purely a one way information dump. Also, Kirk was walking towards the outpost when he started running for his life and he didn't change direction in that run. I would hope that he has enough survival training that he would be able to pick his trail back up again.

And if Spock did know about it as you say he said, he obviously wasn't put on the surface with time to get there before Nero destroyed Vulcan, otherwise he wouldn't have been sitting in the cave making fires. Or Nero possibly knew it was there and put him down on the planet at enough distance that he knew Spock couldn't make it on foot.

Stark wrote:And Gil, 'properly' apparently means 'in a needlessly complex personal fashion'. While it fits with Nero's lunacy, it doesn't make him a very interesting or intelligent adversary. Saying his ship is 'seemingly invincible' when they were totally crippled and captured after a battle with a far older ship seems strange.

That's not really true, since the far older ship didn't did the crippling. What crippled them was Spock ramming that giant blob of Funky Black Hole Stuff into them.

I'm not sure where the needlessly complex thing comes in with the Enterprise. He encounted it twice and the second time there was only a small gap between its appearance and the Spockmobile ramming into it. Given that he specifically ordered everything fired at the Spockmobile and that there was a giant Magic Block Hole of Death eating his ship, his launchers may have been empty at that point and the crew wasn't in a position to reload them.

The first time, well, he probably should have blown the Enterprise out of the sky after he got his hands on Pike directly, just for the sake of completeness. Of course, he was REALLY pissed at Spock and wanted all versions of him to witness the death of Vulcan, but then again, he IS a villain.

However, even if Nero's actions were a little suspect, Eric Bana did do a good job of at least making him interesting and more compelling than he otherwise might have been.

Stark wrote:

Havok wrote:Well obviously they walked there. I meant in the time it took Nero to beam him there and destroy Vulcan. Unless Spock just also happens to be a world class glacier/snow sprinter. And if he got the location from Kirk, which makes a little sense, well that would have been a little too late to save Vulcan wouldn't it.

Well yeah, but it's not dumb from a 'Spock will save the day' perspective, rather a 'Spock will escape and inform my enemies as to my plans and capablities and make my life harder' perspective.

Anguirus, that characterisiation of the Kelvin battle seems pretty dubious. They take one hit and are fucked, a few more and they start abandoning ship... and then take about a dozen more. Then it rams the Narada. The point defence never took out an entire wave of projectiles, and Kelvin was took the equivalent of many, many crippling initial hits later. They must have hit already-broken hit locations.

And Gil, 'properly' apparently means 'in a needlessly complex personal fashion'. While it fits with Nero's lunacy, it doesn't make him a very interesting or intelligent adversary. Saying his ship is 'seemingly invincible' when they were totally crippled and captured after a battle with a far older ship seems strange.

Having a ship be doomed-but-not-blown-up-yet is perfectly plausible IMHO; this is exactly what one would see with any warship of the last hundred years.

erik_t wrote:Having a ship be doomed-but-not-blown-up-yet is perfectly plausible IMHO; this is exactly what one would see with any warship of the last hundred years.

Keep in mind that the other ships in the flotilla jumped only a minute or so before the Enterprise, and Narada destroyed them all before the Enterprise arrived. It's a poorly kept secret that weapons effectiveness in action or sci-fi movies is often variable with plot, but this movie really rubs your nose in it.

I guess I'm just not seeing this massive inconsistency. Nero hit seven unshielded warships with missile-spam and fucked up their shit. He damaged Enterprise and Kelvin significantly with one shot each while they were shielded. Then he blasted Kelvin so severely that it was pretty much fucked, but couldn't totally destroy it before getting smashed.

There are bigger problems with the movie.

Gandalf wrote: I thought he said that he "did his dissertation on the Kelvin", meaning that he was aboard it for his dissertation studies.

Isn't a dissertation just a paper? Or do they have interns on starships now.

Anguirus wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing this massive inconsistency. Nero hit seven unshielded warships with missile-spam and fucked up their shit. He damaged Enterprise and Kelvin significantly with one shot each while they were shielded. Then he blasted Kelvin so severely that it was pretty much fucked, but couldn't totally destroy it before getting smashed.

There are bigger problems with the movie.

Actually that makes sense. nero could have been reloading when the Enterprise popped out and then Enterprise was shielded by the debris from the other ships. nero's not a soldier, maybe he didn't think to keep a couple extra missiles handy and just did his trademark "Fire everything! Wait.. not that... thats my lunch, give it back! Fire Everything else!"

Darth Wong wrote:

erik_t wrote:Having a ship be doomed-but-not-blown-up-yet is perfectly plausible IMHO; this is exactly what one would see with any warship of the last hundred years.

Keep in mind that the other ships in the flotilla jumped only a minute or so before the Enterprise, and Narada destroyed them all before the Enterprise arrived. It's a poorly kept secret that weapons effectiveness in action or sci-fi movies is often variable with plot, but this movie really rubs your nose in it.

Sigh. No argument here.

Themightytom wrote:"Fire everything! Wait.. not that... thats my lunch, give it back! Fire Everything else!"

Sigged.

Darth Wong wrote:

erik_t wrote:Having a ship be doomed-but-not-blown-up-yet is perfectly plausible IMHO; this is exactly what one would see with any warship of the last hundred years.

Keep in mind that the other ships in the flotilla jumped only a minute or so before the Enterprise, and Narada destroyed them all before the Enterprise arrived. It's a poorly kept secret that weapons effectiveness in action or sci-fi movies is often variable with plot, but this movie really rubs your nose in it.

I had the distinct impression that the fleet ahead of them wasn't prepped for battle -- hence Kirk having to convince Pike that they were walking into a trap and should ready themselves. (Not that it makes that much difference, since Narada didn't seem to have trouble blowing through good guys' shields. And I won't even start on the mishandled "lightning storm" business.)

Darth Wong wrote:Keep in mind that the other ships in the flotilla jumped only a minute or so before the Enterprise, and Narada destroyed them all before the Enterprise arrived. It's a poorly kept secret that weapons effectiveness in action or sci-fi movies is often variable with plot, but this movie really rubs your nose in it.

It's certainly possible that the fleet jumped into the Vulcan system and Nero fired every missile he had loaded at them and was reloading when the Enterprise got there. However, I concede it would have been better for the Enterprise to have shown up thirty minutes later than the fleet, rather than two minutes behind.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:Keep in mind that the other ships in the flotilla jumped only a minute or so before the Enterprise, and Narada destroyed them all before the Enterprise arrived. It's a poorly kept secret that weapons effectiveness in action or sci-fi movies is often variable with plot, but this movie really rubs your nose in it.

It's certainly possible that the fleet jumped into the Vulcan system and Nero fired every missile he had loaded at them and was reloading when the Enterprise got there. However, I concede it would have been better for the Enterprise to have shown up thirty minutes later than the fleet, rather than two minutes behind.

Gil,

You are eloquent, as always

From what I can remember, the [destroyed] fleet was by no means prepared for battle (as if comparatively "ancient" ships could ever be properly readied for combat against even a gigatnic mining vessel hailing from some 130 years hence).

Enterprise, however, was ready for combat when she warped into orbit of Vulcan.

As pathetic as 23rd century Starfleet ships' shields seem against Narada's weaponry, it remains entirely possible that raising those shields -- as Enterprise apparently did -- is all the difference between a quick and potentially-as-quick death.

I guess? It's all pretty speculative. Just looking back at the Kelvin battle makes it seem kind of suspect. I doubt there was much of the Kelvin's shielding left when it rammed the Narada but it didn't seem to get blown to pieces like the small fleet around Vulcan.

Also, did they every show the missiles impacting the shields in any way? Like with the bit of ship scraping the Enterprise in the debris field showed no shielding effect. I don't think we ever saw any with the Kelvin, just the missiles impacting and blowing chunks out of it.

After Nero captured the captain of the Kelvin was he at all interested in just messing with the Kelvin or simply destroying it?

Erik von Nein wrote:After Nero captured the captain of the Kelvin was he at all interested in just messing with the Kelvin or simply destroying it?

It's possible that the time travelling damaged the Narada's weapons, preventing them from being able to do too much damage.

Yeah, except there's no evidence for that. Did the time traveling do any other damage to anything? Spock's future ship was apparently intact without any obvious damage. How does the state of the Narada differ from the comic to the movie?

EDIT:

Also, how would they fix their weapons afterwards?