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Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:k, while you people are arguing over who gets to sell stuff to Cialan, the Japanistanis have managed to hire the remnants of the Revolutionary Front to do their dirty work, seeing as their previous RUF flunkies got blown up on Flyspeck Island.

All I ask is that Troy and his buddies not go out like punks. Otherwise, Coyote and the Frequesquean players are free to do as they wish with them.

Flyspeck Island wasn't RUF... they're still around, somewhere.

Beowulf wrote:

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:k, while you people are arguing over who gets to sell stuff to Cialan, the Japanistanis have managed to hire the remnants of the Revolutionary Front to do their dirty work, seeing as their previous RUF flunkies got blown up on Flyspeck Island.

All I ask is that Troy and his buddies not go out like punks. Otherwise, Coyote and the Frequesquean players are free to do as they wish with them.

Flyspeck Island wasn't RUF... they're still around, somewhere.

A possible collaboration between Jackson Blackpelt and Troy Vortisch (maybe completely voluntary, maybe forced by their Japanistani overseers) isn't out of the question, then. Just opens up even more options for spreading chaos in the Goddamn Fucking Continent, which is good.

PeZook wrote:What's the point of arguing who loses more money on the deal? Is Bluewolf interested in that?

The point I was making to Shroom, Blue, and 'Fin is that I have such a significant surplus that I can basically afford to offer the ships for less than nothing relative to their ability to drop prices (a funciton of my larger economy and availability of hulls). Think of it as an OOC Contract Clause offering to beat any offered competitor's price by 10%. Not that I'm literally offering that but I believe I did post $250mil as an asking price with further reductions possible.

CmdrWilkens wrote:The point I was making to Shroom, Blue, and 'Fin is that I have such a significant surplus that I can basically afford to offer the ships for less than nothing relative to their ability to drop prices (a funciton of my larger economy and availability of hulls). Think of it as an OOC Contract Clause offering to beat any offered competitor's price by 10%. Not that I'm literally offering that but I believe I did post $250mil as an asking price with further reductions possible.

And then there's me, who is pretty much in the same boat (har har) so far as Ticos and Burkes go.

Really, if you want those, you should go MESS. We want to get rid of the things and we can make very attractive offers. Because otherwise they're just scrap.

With CATO, there is a possibility that Cialan, if it becomes a CATO observer, could be included in the ABM and early warning protective umbrella over the OC, giving it access to data feeds from the massive OTH radars we have in UCSR, Byzantium, Shroomania and Pezookia.

Yes, dealing with CATO wouldn't give them cheaper destroyers (especially cheaper Burkes) - but being fair, Cialan probably needs more coastal missile boats than it needs these huge destroyers.

CATO can't offer Cialan a cheap "Grand Fleet", but we can offer something more tangible and necessary than a Grand Fleet.

Stas Bush wrote:With CATO, there is a possibility that Cialan, if it becomes a CATO observer, could be included in the ABM and early warning protective umbrella over the OC, giving it access to data feeds from the massive OTH radars we have in UCSR, Byzantium, Shroomania and Pezookia.

Yes, dealing with CATO wouldn't give them cheaper destroyers (especially cheaper Burkes) - but being fair, Cialan probably needs more coastal missile boats than it needs these huge destroyers.

CATO can't offer Cialan a cheap "Grand Fleet", but we can offer something more tangible and necessary than a Grand Fleet.

Yes and you might note that nothing in the sales pitch indicated a mvoe towards joining the MESS...we don't use arms sales as a way to pressure folks to join our alliance unlike, apparently, some folks

We aren't pressuring Cialan to join, we are inviting.

And yes your pitch doesn't include even mild invitations because let's be frank, you're sellling your obsolete stock. I don't understand how old Burke or Tico hulls could be a reason for membership anywhere. Meanwhile, feeds from OTH radars are a very, very valuable assets which of course you wouldn't be sharing with strangers.

You know the general problems that small states experience with naval guard and air guard? Like, stopping intruders, illegal coastal fishing and such. With our OTH radars, Cialan would have lots of data if someone would do that.

We're complementing the offer by selling heavy 5th generation planes regardless of whether Cialan chooses to enter observership in the CATO or not. Can the MESS sell heavy 5th generation fighter complements to Cialan? I bet you'd have serious clearance problems for that deal.

Stas Bush wrote:We aren't pressuring Cialan to join, we are inviting.

And yes your pitch doesn't include even mild invitations because let's be frank, you're sellling your obsolete stock. I don't understand how old Burke or Tico hulls could be a reason for membership anywhere. Meanwhile, feeds from OTH radars are a very, very valuable assets which of course you wouldn't be sharing with strangers.

You know the general problems that small states experience with naval guard and air guard? Like, stopping intruders, illegal coastal fishing and such. With our OTH radars, Cialan would have lots of data if someone would do that.

We're complementing the offer by selling heavy 5th generation planes regardless of whether Cialan chooses to enter observership in the CATO or not. Can the MESS sell heavy 5th generation fighter complements to Cialan? I bet you'd have serious clearance problems for that deal.

Upgrade the Ticos and Burkes to carry SM-3 and they aren't that obsolete. Hell, the OD is going to be keeping a mostly-AEGIS(albeit with upgrades) fleet past 2030.

I like to say that I am not going to be joining CATO so that myth is not there at all. While I formulating a weapons purchase deal, that too can be altered and changed.

Stas Bush wrote:We're complementing the offer by selling heavy 5th generation planes regardless of whether Cialan chooses to enter observership in the CATO or not. Can the MESS sell heavy 5th generation fighter complements to Cialan? I bet you'd have serious clearance problems for that deal.

Probably but at the same time the more you offer technology around the more likely it si that someone you don't want (i.e. ME) would get their hands on it. There is a REASON why you don't give all you stuff away because once its out of your hands its truly out of your hands. In fact I would rather expect given the rampantly capitalist society that is the NFT that somebody has bought and paid for every scrap of data on CATO munitions that they have. I would expect any foreign military sales agreement to give the major alliances complete details of the material sold.

Lonestar already dealt with the fact that these ships, since they are SM-3 capable, are STILL very capable vessels and likely will be for the next 15-20 years unless they were to be in small groups facing off against a cruise missile threat which overwhelms their processing power...in other words the sort of situation which no smaller nation is likely to find themselves in. At the same time a long endurance Destroyer is vastly more capable against small boats, pirates, folks evading maritime claims, and in showing the flag. In other words a half generation old Destroyer is MUCH more cost effective than any small patrol boat. The Destroyer has greater station keeping, better range, better sensors, better survivability, AND since he would be getting it used similair cost.

CmdrWilkens wrote:In fact I would rather expect given the rampantly capitalist society that is the NFT that somebody has bought and paid for every scrap of data on CATO munitions that they have.

There's two things I'd like to say on this particular subject:

1) First and foremost 'the NFT' is not the same as San Dorado. We have three members now, two of which do not nearly glorify capitalism to the extent San Dorado does. So this does not necessarily fly.

2) Even within San Dorado there's always been an upper crust if you like that's been practically incorruptible. Even though the lower layers of San Dorado were corrupt as hell agencies like the PSS and the MIC, as well as the upper echelons of the CBI, were extremely difficult to penetrate exactly because of the rampant corruption in the rest of society. These were people hired and paid extremely well because they couldn't be bought. Anti-corruption monitoring at the higher levels of San Dorado society is extremely efficient, and has been so for decades.

I'm getting a bit tired of the whole 'we'll just buy our data off the NFT' schtick. That's not how it works. If you could just buy anyone in a position of power we'd never have gotten beyond Darfur levels of civilization. The fact that the NFT is obviously a working society which manages to attract other nations to it, can independently launch people into space, and is among the best performing nations of Frequesue should clue you into the fact that corruption over here does not work that way.

You know, whatever, nuts to the ships. I find it very amusing that Sidney Hank's recovery from alcoholism involves screaming at hallucinations of the Huang Di.

The Huang Di.

What an awesome guy!

So, our tracking ship along with the carrier arrives, tracks OD Hawks 18 km from the coastline, passes the data to the NFT.

Hello international laws of the sea, Lonestar. You should remove your drones further out - and best of all, out at all.

Uh, Stas? The Contiguous Zone != to territorial sea. Unless you have reasonable suspicion that the Dominion Hawks will conduct "infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea", you have no case. And since it's hard to see how an aircraft can do any of those without intruding on the actual airspace of the NFT, you have no case. Interception is permissible, if the Dominion Hawks were attempting to land in NFT territory, for example.

Attempting to exclude vessels and aircraft from the contiguous zone constitutes an extension of the territorial sea claim, and Tian Xia will not stand for it. We maintain the freedom of overflight granted by the high seas.

Well thats pretty much most of the arms deal sorted out in the end. It may change if need be but it should stay basically the same.

Beowulf wrote:Uh, Stas? The Contiguous Zone != to territorial sea

The contiguous zone is of course not equal to territorial waters, but interception and action against unwarranted aircraft and illegal crossings in that zone is well permitted by UNCLOS. As for reasonable suspicion that the Dominion Hawks will conduct "infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea", I'm sure the NFT will find a legal clause that would support the fact that Dominion Hawks are breaking some sort of law or regulation.

Beowulf wrote:And since it's hard to see how an aircraft can do any of those without intruding on the actual airspace of the NFT, you have no case.

It can. It's damn obvious the Hawks are taking pictures of stuff. It only takes a law to claim that they have been doing something illegal, and voila. Look:
Within the extended contiguous zone, the Coast Guard may now board and search a foreign vessel suspected of smuggling drugs, carrying illegal immigrants, polluting the ocean, or tampering with sunken ships or other underwater artifacts, without first obtaining permission from the country where the vessel is registered. Previously, such action could be taken only within 12 miles of the coast.
Basically, the most important part is "polluting the ocean". Dominion Hawks are polluting the air? Voila. No permission from the OD to excise them is even needed.

So you can count your god damn blessings and consider it a gesture of good will, because you can be damn sure there can be a legal case against the drones.

Also, ICAO says that "interception of civil aircraft should only be taken as a last resort", but it speaks nothing of the OD drones. They don't have any special provisions in the ICAO reserved for them, so if it's determined they are polluting (which is up to the nation below of course), hwoops.

In that case, of course they are polluting without permission . And I suspect that pesky Tian Xia boat off my coast might just be polluting too...

Trade wars brewing I see...

I hope Beowulf isn't so surprised. In all times during international disputes, especially concerning spy planes or spy ships, the nations tried to use the EEZ or contiguous zones (depending on how far the unwanted intruder is from the coast) to block unwanted access. We are only trying to do it in a logical fashion, without much fuss.

Were we more direct, we could just assault it with some sort of high-altitude interceptor you know, or just jam it and cause it to violate our airspace after which promptly down it.

China and the USSR downed quite a number of recon craft, and not all of them were downed in their airspace (although some were) - the latest incident included China downing a plane 60-80 km off-coast.

Basically, you're spying and we're trying to make it harder for ya. Cheers.

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:k, while you people are arguing over who gets to sell stuff to Cialan, the Japanistanis have managed to hire the remnants of the Revolutionary Front to do their dirty work, seeing as their previous RUF flunkies got blown up on Flyspeck Island.

All I ask is that Troy and his buddies not go out like punks. Otherwise, Coyote and the Frequesquean players are free to do as they wish with them.

Well I've thrown my own complications into the mix. The politcs of it make things far more complicated for me than simply "kill the offenders with an air strike." And for the RUF leaders to be on the run for so long I'm quite sure that they'd have plenty of nasty tricks up their sleeves.

SiegeTank wrote:In that case, of course they are polluting without permission . And I suspect that pesky Tian Xia boat off my coast might just be polluting too...

Dominion Hawks emission levels no doubt are well below the government minimal for the NFT. I'm sure PeZook would be more than willing to corroborate the information.

Lonestar wrote: Dominion Hawks emission levels no doubt are well below the government minimal for the NFT. I'm sure PeZook would be more than willing to corroborate the information.

Are they flying within authorized aircraft corridors, though? And what about electronic pollution? Using any radio bands restricted to the NFT military?

Lonestar wrote:Dominion Hawks emission levels no doubt are well below the government minimal for the NFT. I'm sure PeZook would be more than willing to corroborate the information.

Oh no, no I'm afraid you're really not in compliance with NFT regulations concerning high-altitude electromagnetic emissions .

PeZook wrote:
Are they flying within authorized aircraft corridors, though? And what about electronic pollution?

Satellite uplinks for electronic pollution(UHF transmitter is only used it satellite communications goes away), and who the hell flies at 80,000 feet anyway?

Also, I just PMed Stas, so no one do anything with regards to the Dominion Hawks, yet.