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Robert Treder wrote:As far as the Fellowhip goes, I feel that it is imperative that we control the Ring. We cannot be certain that the Fellowship will succeed on their own, and I'm not going to go on faith.
We are the best guardians of the Ring in all of Middle Earth. We can attempt to destroy it without assaulting Mt. Doom, by using thermite or other destructive laboratory methods. If that fails (which is possible, however unlikely), we can encase it in a steel block. As far as the steel block goes, we have two options: a) put it in a 200 lb block with handles that is portable to a team of two, so we can take it where we wish, but still have it secure or b) put in a 1 ton block, so it stays in our base no matter what.
In a steel block, the Nazghul won't be able to see it because nobody will be wearing it. In the unlikely event that Sauron's forces do capture it, they will be hard-pressed to remove the Ring. Even our forces, if corrupted, will take long enough with trying to remove the Ring that they would be apprehended by those of us still in their right minds.

On top of this, securing the Ring will not be difficult. We can send a team to the Shire within the first few years, where they will not face resistance in taking the Ring from either Bilbo or Frodo (depending on when we go). If the Hobbits resist, we will have no trouble dispatching them.

Despite any political problems this may cause with the locals, I feel it is paramount. It is unwise to leave the Ring with the Fellowship; the Fellowship is smaller and much less powerful than we are. We cannot simply assume that Frodo is more virtuous than we or some stupid shit like that. The Ring is potentially a dangerous weapon, and we must keep it under close guard, if we cannot destroy it outright.

Taking the Ring by force is a very bad idea because it estranges us of one of our most valuble ally's Gandalf. Gandalf personally knows the rulers of all the major nations and even helped put some of them in power, he knows how the lay of the land over most of the West of Middle earth, he has formidable magic powers, can fight for days on end, survive a fall down a 'bottomless' pit, and if you do manage to kill him he comes back stronger, this is not a guy you want working against us and that is exactly what you will get if you take the Ring by force.

Whether we take it by force or not, we must take it. It is foolish to let the locals have it. If Gandalf doesn't like that, he is welcome to test our defenses. I am unaware of any weapon of his that rivals our .50 cals and mortars.

take it within a yr of arriving, leave a note for gandalf.

Robert Treder wrote:Whether we take it by force or not, we must take it. It is foolish to let the locals have it. If Gandalf doesn't like that, he is welcome to test our defenses. I am unaware of any weapon of his that rivals our .50 cals and mortars.

He doesn't have actually win in an attack against you, if you piss him off every army in the world is now against you. Do you think your can win having everyone on the planet as your enemies?

Enforcer Talen wrote:take it within a yr of arriving, leave a note for gandalf.

That would never work, Frodo or Bilbo would never agree to it and you would have to take it by force angring Gandalf. No the best course of action is to do as I suggested and simply be at the birthday party and talk them into going with us then.

-snickers- that's absurd. hey, gandalf, give us this one ring which ensnares the weilder and dominates the world. no, let's just break in while frodo is asleep, and stroll off with the ring. he doesnt look at it.

Enforcer Talen wrote:-snickers- that's absurd. hey, gandalf, give us this one ring which ensnares the weilder and dominates the world. no, let's just break in while frodo is asleep, and stroll off with the ring. he doesnt look at it.

Oh yeah, that's going to work, so you break into Bag End, now what? Do you know where he keeps the Ring? How about where he sleeps and wether or not he's a light sleeper, What if he keeps the ring under his pillow? There are about a billion things that could go wrong and one of them probably will. No the best bet is to ask Frodo and Gandalf to come with us.

Ren wrote:

Enforcer Talen wrote:-snickers- that's absurd. hey, gandalf, give us this one ring which ensnares the weilder and dominates the world. no, let's just break in while frodo is asleep, and stroll off with the ring. he doesnt look at it.

Oh yeah, that's going to work, so you break into Bag End, now what? Do you know where he keeps the Ring? How about where he sleeps and wether or not he's a light sleeper, What if he keeps the ring under his pillow? There are about a billion things that could go wrong and one of them probably will. No the best bet is to ask Frodo and Gandalf to come with us.

We have a chemistry lab, creating a compound to keep him asleep would be quite easy. And in the book Frodo kept the ring on a chain in his pocket. That's not going to be very hard to find.

knock him out. -shrugs-

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Ren wrote:

Enforcer Talen wrote:-snickers- that's absurd. hey, gandalf, give us this one ring which ensnares the weilder and dominates the world. no, let's just break in while frodo is asleep, and stroll off with the ring. he doesnt look at it.

Oh yeah, that's going to work, so you break into Bag End, now what? Do you know where he keeps the Ring? How about where he sleeps and wether or not he's a light sleeper, What if he keeps the ring under his pillow? There are about a billion things that could go wrong and one of them probably will. No the best bet is to ask Frodo and Gandalf to come with us.

We have a chemistry lab, creating a compound to keep him asleep would be quite easy. And in the book Frodo kept the ring on a chain in his pocket. That's not going to be very hard to find.

If it's in his pocket then you have no chance of getting it without calling down the wrath of Gandalf on your head. Because even if you knock him out probably the first thing he will do is check for the Ring and find it gone, and then the jig is up. It's just not a good idea to steal the Ring!

Ren wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Ren wrote: Oh yeah, that's going to work, so you break into Bag End, now what? Do you know where he keeps the Ring? How about where he sleeps and wether or not he's a light sleeper, What if he keeps the ring under his pillow? There are about a billion things that could go wrong and one of them probably will. No the best bet is to ask Frodo and Gandalf to come with us.

We have a chemistry lab, creating a compound to keep him asleep would be quite easy. And in the book Frodo kept the ring on a chain in his pocket. That's not going to be very hard to find.

If it's in his pocket then you have no chance of getting it without calling down the wrath of Gandalf on your head. Because even if you knock him out probably the first thing he will do is check for the Ring and find it gone, and then the jig is up. It's just not a good idea to steal the Ring!

So what? Neither knows who took it nor where we are taking it. And Since Gandalf only showed up every couple years after Frodo took the ring, we'd have it encased in steel long before he found out.

Ren wrote:

Enforcer Talen wrote:-snickers- that's absurd. hey, gandalf, give us this one ring which ensnares the weilder and dominates the world. no, let's just break in while frodo is asleep, and stroll off with the ring. he doesnt look at it.

Oh yeah, that's going to work, so you break into Bag End, now what? Do you know where he keeps the Ring? How about where he sleeps and wether or not he's a light sleeper, What if he keeps the ring under his pillow? There are about a billion things that could go wrong and one of them probably will. No the best bet is to ask Frodo and Gandalf to come with us.

I think you're seriously overestimating the resistive will of Hobbits. Gandalf will be out and about wandering around Middle Earth by the time we actually manage to establish ourselves and properly train everyone to be soldiers. What are we supposed to do? Waste valuable resources running around looking for him so we can get his permission to take the Ring?

We can't ask Frodo to come with us by peace; he'd never agree to it without Gandalf's say-so. The only solution is to break in under cover of nightfall, take the Ring and run off. Frodo could never possibly resist, and he knows nothing about the outside world, much less us. He couldn't tell Gandalf who took it.

With the Ring in our possession, Sauron will literally have no fucking clue where to search for the Ring. He still thinks it's in the Shire. When the Nine come knocking, they'll be soarly disappointed.

We could also break in, leave a note addressed to Gandalf, telling him where the Ring is, that it's safe and that he should ride to our base as soon as he can. Of course, that would give the Nine a piece of evidence telling them exactly where the Ring is when they come barging into the Shire, so I'd recommend against it. The best course of action is to simply snatch up the Ring sometime after Bilbo's birthday party.

That way, we take possession of it early on and have more than 10 years to decide what to do with it, experiment with it and try and destroy it with our own means. If those means fail, we try and think of a good way to get it into Mount Doom. In the meantime, we encase it in a 2-ton steel block and let it sit in our base, under our protection. If we can't think of a surefire way to deliver it to Mount Doom, we send embassies to Rivendel, inform Elrond of the situation and go from there.

Assuming that we can destroy the Ring with our technology (not unlikely), this scenario is the simplest way of doing things. The only military operation would be breaking into the Shire to steal the Ring, and that is an extremely low-risk operation. We could conceivably win the whole thing with zero casualties. If that means making Gandalf grumpy, so be it. Our lives come first.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Ren wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote: We have a chemistry lab, creating a compound to keep him asleep would be quite easy. And in the book Frodo kept the ring on a chain in his pocket. That's not going to be very hard to find.

If it's in his pocket then you have no chance of getting it without calling down the wrath of Gandalf on your head. Because even if you knock him out probably the first thing he will do is check for the Ring and find it gone, and then the jig is up. It's just not a good idea to steal the Ring!

So what? Neither knows who took it nor where we are taking it. And Since Gandalf only showed up every couple years after Frodo took the ring, we'd have it encased in steel long before he found out.

How tall are you? If you are over 4 feet you will stick out like a sore thumb in Hobbiton espically during this early time period, If you are going through Bree then they will probably reconize you to. Any good at hiding your tracks? Strider is one of the best trackers on the planet. The Shire is constantly being watched by the Rangers. Why risk it all just for the thrill of stealing something? You can probably convince them to help you and Gandalf would make a powerful ally.

Oh, and I forgot to mention this. Say we send a commando unit to the Shire, dressed in black. When Gandalf eventually does show back up, he'd give a vague description of who took the Ring to Gandalf, and that description would sound a good deal like the Nine to him. If we're lucky, Gandalf would assume that the Enemy has the Ring but be confounded as to why Sauron hasn't done anything yet. No doubt he'd be running around telling everyone that Sauron has his jewelry back and trying to form an army to march on Mordor. With everyone's attention diverted over there, we could just sit back and relax for a while.

Ren wrote:How tall are you? If you are over 4 feet you will stick out like a sore thumb in Hobbiton espically during this early time period, If you are going through Bree then they will probably reconize you to. Any good at hiding your tracks? Strider is one of the best trackers on the planet. The Shire is constantly being watched by the Rangers. Why risk it all just for the thrill of stealing something? You can probably convince them to help you and Gandalf would make a powerful ally.

You're missing the goddamn point. We break in during the night with camouflage that helps hide us as we sneak into Frodo's house and covertly take the Ring. Is that better?

rangers could track us, Im sure. but automatic weapon fire is a nasty thing, if necessary.

Im hopin they wont track us - I mean, what did we do? any record of us arriving, reason for us being there, knowledge of our theft? frodo looks at it once a year or less. no problem.

Durandal wrote:Oh, and I forgot to mention this. Say we send a commando unit to the Shire, dressed in black. When Gandalf eventually does show back up, he'd give a vague description of who took the Ring to Gandalf, and that description would sound a good deal like the Nine to him. If we're lucky, Gandalf would assume that the Enemy has the Ring but be confounded as to why Sauron hasn't done anything yet. No doubt he'd be running around telling everyone that Sauron has his jewelry back and trying to form an army to march on Mordor. With everyone's attention diverted over there, we could just sit back and relax for a while.

You forget that Gandalf is wearing one of the Three if Sauron really did have it Gandalf would know it, framing Sauron won't work. If you do this how are you planning to generate the fear effect that accompaines the Ringwraiths? And how are you going to find Bag-End in the first place? If you ask around he will know you aren't Ringwraiths unless you are really good actors. Why steal the ring at all? What possible advantage does that give you over asking for them to accompany you?

Ren wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Ren wrote: If it's in his pocket then you have no chance of getting it without calling down the wrath of Gandalf on your head. Because even if you knock him out probably the first thing he will do is check for the Ring and find it gone, and then the jig is up. It's just not a good idea to steal the Ring!

So what? Neither knows who took it nor where we are taking it. And Since Gandalf only showed up every couple years after Frodo took the ring, we'd have it encased in steel long before he found out.

How tall are you? If you are over 4 feet you will stick out like a sore thumb in Hobbiton espically during this early time period, If you are going through Bree then they will probably reconize you to. Any good at hiding your tracks? Strider is one of the best trackers on the planet. The Shire is constantly being watched by the Rangers. Why risk it all just for the thrill of stealing something? You can probably convince them to help you and Gandalf would make a powerful ally.

The fact that humans and elves often pass though the Shire seems to be lost on you, as is the fact that we'd be moving covertly and are more then able to handel any ranger or group of rangers.

Ren wrote:

Durandal wrote:Oh, and I forgot to mention this. Say we send a commando unit to the Shire, dressed in black. When Gandalf eventually does show back up, he'd give a vague description of who took the Ring to Gandalf, and that description would sound a good deal like the Nine to him. If we're lucky, Gandalf would assume that the Enemy has the Ring but be confounded as to why Sauron hasn't done anything yet. No doubt he'd be running around telling everyone that Sauron has his jewelry back and trying to form an army to march on Mordor. With everyone's attention diverted over there, we could just sit back and relax for a while.

You forget that Gandalf is wearing one of the Three if Sauron really did have it Gandalf would know it, framing Sauron won't work. If you do this how are you planning to generate the fear effect that accompaines the Ringwraiths? And how are you going to find Bag-End in the first place? If you ask around he will know you aren't Ringwraiths unless you are really good actors. Why steal the ring at all? What possible advantage does that give you over asking for them to accompany you?

frodo: men in black took it. they were scary.

gandalf: hmm. I wonder who it could be. certainly only the nine riders could do this - after all, no one comes from the future with automatic weapons.

we're going to find it with maps. I brought a bag of them. the ring is stolen cuz we might destroy it in the lab, or at least have better chances of getting it into the pit.

Ren wrote:

Durandal wrote:Oh, and I forgot to mention this. Say we send a commando unit to the Shire, dressed in black. When Gandalf eventually does show back up, he'd give a vague description of who took the Ring to Gandalf, and that description would sound a good deal like the Nine to him. If we're lucky, Gandalf would assume that the Enemy has the Ring but be confounded as to why Sauron hasn't done anything yet. No doubt he'd be running around telling everyone that Sauron has his jewelry back and trying to form an army to march on Mordor. With everyone's attention diverted over there, we could just sit back and relax for a while.

You forget that Gandalf is wearing one of the Three if Sauron really did have it Gandalf would know it, framing Sauron won't work. If you do this how are you planning to generate the fear effect that accompaines the Ringwraiths? And how are you going to find Bag-End in the first place? If you ask around he will know you aren't Ringwraiths unless you are really good actors. Why steal the ring at all? What possible advantage does that give you over asking for them to accompany you?

The fear efect of full automatic rifle fire on those who have never seen a musket is rather large. We can just ask where Bag-End is, though we already have a rough idea. Its not like humans are unknown or uncommon in the Shire, dispite waht you seem to want to claim.

Enforcer Talen wrote:rangers could track us, Im sure. but automatic weapon fire is a nasty thing, if necessary.

Im hopin they wont track us - I mean, what did we do? any record of us arriving, reason for us being there, knowledge of our theft? frodo looks at it once a year or less. no problem.

So now your killing our allys that will go over well I'm sure. Yes their will be a record of your arriving the land's are civilized for miles around, bag-end is in the middle of a city. You need to ask for directions to help you find bag-end unless you plan on just wandering around untell you stumble on it. If Frodo isn't checking it but once a year or so then how do you know where it is, you may have to spend hours tearing his house apart to find it, he would certianly notice that.

send one person during the day, find out where baggins is by asking about families. then at night, send in the squad.

Ren wrote:

Enforcer Talen wrote:rangers could track us, Im sure. but automatic weapon fire is a nasty thing, if necessary.

Im hopin they wont track us - I mean, what did we do? any record of us arriving, reason for us being there, knowledge of our theft? frodo looks at it once a year or less. no problem.

So now your killing our allys that will go over well I'm sure. Yes their will be a record of your arriving the land's are civilized for miles around, bag-end is in the middle of a city. You need to ask for directions to help you find bag-end unless you plan on just wandering around untell you stumble on it. If Frodo isn't checking it but once a year or so then how do you know where it is, you may have to spend hours tearing his house apart to find it, he would certianly notice that.

He keeps it in his damn coat pocket.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Ren wrote:

Enforcer Talen wrote:rangers could track us, Im sure. but automatic weapon fire is a nasty thing, if necessary.

Im hopin they wont track us - I mean, what did we do? any record of us arriving, reason for us being there, knowledge of our theft? frodo looks at it once a year or less. no problem.

So now your killing our allys that will go over well I'm sure. Yes their will be a record of your arriving the land's are civilized for miles around, bag-end is in the middle of a city. You need to ask for directions to help you find bag-end unless you plan on just wandering around untell you stumble on it. If Frodo isn't checking it but once a year or so then how do you know where it is, you may have to spend hours tearing his house apart to find it, he would certianly notice that.

He keeps it in his damn coat pocket.

read my above post.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Ren wrote:

Durandal wrote:Oh, and I forgot to mention this. Say we send a commando unit to the Shire, dressed in black. When Gandalf eventually does show back up, he'd give a vague description of who took the Ring to Gandalf, and that description would sound a good deal like the Nine to him. If we're lucky, Gandalf would assume that the Enemy has the Ring but be confounded as to why Sauron hasn't done anything yet. No doubt he'd be running around telling everyone that Sauron has his jewelry back and trying to form an army to march on Mordor. With everyone's attention diverted over there, we could just sit back and relax for a while.

You forget that Gandalf is wearing one of the Three if Sauron really did have it Gandalf would know it, framing Sauron won't work. If you do this how are you planning to generate the fear effect that accompaines the Ringwraiths? And how are you going to find Bag-End in the first place? If you ask around he will know you aren't Ringwraiths unless you are really good actors. Why steal the ring at all? What possible advantage does that give you over asking for them to accompany you?

The fear efect of full automatic rifle fire on those who have never seen a musket is rather large. We can just ask where Bag-End is, though we already have a rough idea. Its not like humans are unknown or uncommon in the Shire, dispite waht you seem to want to claim.

Humans may not be unknown, but they are certianly uncommon, the books certianly never mentioned any humans in the Shire, and most don't ask for bag-end, have a reason for being their, and don't disapear after someone just got robbed. Ringwraiths don't use rifles, ever notice how they go for melee weapons, this is because their eyesight SUCKS. In addition the fear effect from seeing the weapons fire is vastly diffrent than the Ringwraiths fear effects.

You still haven't answered my question, why steal the Ring in the first place?