THE OotS Thread, Part V

[Ralin]

And the IFCC Fiends still haven't figured it all out -- they only think ONE WORLD was destroyed.

Yes. If we take what they're saying at face value. But it would be in-character for them to be withholding information from Nale. And the previous exchange about telepathy does foreshadow that this is a bad time to assume anything they say is trustworthy.

Though it also shows that they are following a policy of lying via omission instead of making factually untrue statements. For some unknown reason that might just boil down to personally enjoying it.

Actually, it's the SNARL versus every else.

I'm willing to bet that outsiders, created via divine energy and all, are very vulnerable to that.
The Archfriend rulers might be ambitious, but they are not suicidal.

Until very recently the only beings working against the Snarl were the gods.

There are many things that can kill a fiend. There are very few things that can kill a god.

[Ralin]

Would be really fitting if the fiends' storyline ended with a pan evil task force of Loki, Tiamat and Rat kicking down their doors.

[Rogue 9]

1321 is up. What a - dare I say it - fiendish plan.

[Solauren]

Pretty standard really

Harvest souls
Weaken Gods
Kill Gods
Replace Gods with selves.

Am I the only one here that has read the Fiendish Codexs? Book of Fiends (Armys of the Abyss/Legions of Hell), any any of the other lower planar books and sources?

[Ralin]

Pretty standard really

Harvest souls
Weaken Gods
Kill Gods
Replace Gods with selves.

Yes. Definitely might work. At least as far as those steps go. I suspect they would get their comeuppance when it turned out they're not nearly as good at making worlds as the gods were.

Again, assuming that the apparent gaps in their knowledge aren't for Nale's benefit.

Am I the only one here that has read the Fiendish Codexs? Book of Fiends (Armys of the Abyss/Legions of Hell), any any of the other lower planar books and sources?

At least part of them, yeah. It's been awhile. Had good points and bad points. I remember being unimpressed by the devils as fallen angels of law origin.

[Solauren]

Okay - super basic summary time them!


From - Fiendish Codex II Tyrants of the Nine Hells -
First there was Chaos
Demons formed, and started fighting each other
(Sol note - Probably the Obyrith demons, but maybe something before them?)
The power of law solidied
Gods formed
Gods begin to fight Demons
Gods want to move onto other projects, create Angels to fight them.9
Welcome to the Blood War

War Angels, lead by Asmodeus, slowly adapt Demonic traits.
Gods are uncomfortable with the War Angels changes, try to put them on trial, but it's all lawful.
Mortal Worlds formed
Demons Invade
Gods and Angels drive them back, put the gates behind and under barriers like mountains and oceans
Mortals Formed
Mortals learn to summon demons.
Welcome to the side effects of Free Will...

Gods not sure what to do
Asmodeus presents the concept of punishment.
Asmodeus and co set up methods for punishing mortal transgressions.
This affects the Upper Planes, so the put Asmodeus and co on trial again. Nope, still lawful.
Asmodeus suggests the Pact Primeval. War Angels become Devils, and can harvest divine energy from souls without needing the gods to do it for them.
The Gods didn't read the fine print.... now we have Devils tempting mortals so their souls end up in Hell for the devils (effectively stealing them from the gods).
... as a result, Welcome to the Law/Chaos/Good/Evil D&D Alignment system....


Later on in the book, is clearly lays out that Asmodeus grand plan is to -
Gather enough souls to heal his injuries from when he was cast out (they are still bleeding millenia+ later), and ascend to Godhood himself
(probably so he doesn't need the Pact Primeval anymore)
Temporary peace treaty with the other evil outsiders, ending the Blood War
The Law/Chaos conflict now shifts into Good vs Evil....
Unified fiends invade the Upper Planes.


Which is also why I've been saying the Gods should have let the Archfiends in on things and be working with them.

IF this holds true in OOTS, the Archfiends need all the souls they can get to eventually become Gods.
Also, being made of divine energy and created by gods, they are vulnerable to the Snarl as well.


Really, if I was the IFCC, and I noted the Dark Ones color, I'd be trying to play Deal Broker between the Gods and the Dark One, about getting him to help seal up the Snarl, so they can create more planets, more races, and MORE SOULS.

Screw revenge, it's not a good business model. And a good business model would get revenge as a side effect anyway.

[Ralin]

Yeah, that's the part I was unimpressed with. Seemed like shoehorning Christian cosmology into a setting it really didn't have any business in.

Who knows what Burlew thinks about it, but 1) those books came fairly late in 3.5's lifespan and well after Burlew would have planned the series out, 2) we were just told the fiends can't use souls the same way the gods can and 3) they seem genuinely offended by the Evil gods' betrayal.

I don't know why you're emphasizing the possibility that the fiends share the gods' vulnerability to the Snarl when they're to all appearances far enough below the gods in power to make the subject moot.

[Solauren]

Yeah, that's the part I was unimpressed with. Seemed like shoehorning Christian cosmology into a setting it really didn't have any business in.

Actually Order from Chaos, Gods displacing previous life, etc, is a staple of most mythologies. If you want, I'll look up some examples for you. But off hand, The original Greek Mythologies come to mind.

Christianity burrowed from them.

If anything, Fiendish Codex II started with the common elements, and then added in D&D stuff that happens to use christian terms that make it easier for the audience to relate to.

But, that's offtopic.

I don't know why you're emphasizing the possibility that the fiends share the gods' vulnerability to the Snarl when they're to all appearances far enough below the gods in power to make the subject moot.

Because it's something the Fiends are overlooking. Are we actually safe from this thing?
Which is unexpected and out of character stupid, considering the power-level, scheming nature, and the intelligence of Archfiends.

Consider - the Snarl was contained by mortals this time around. Okay, fine. (Go order of the Scribble!)

BUT....
Why don't the gods use Celestials and other outsides to contain the Snarl?
"Opps, there's a rift! Okay, we need 20 Solars to go fortify it."

I mean, they've created worlds so many bloody times, it has to have been attempted before, right?

My belief: They did try that. Probably the second time the created a world (the first one the Snarl was imprisoned in).
And it didn't work, the Snarl massacred the Celestials used, destroying them as easily and utterly as it did the Olympian gods.

Why?
IT HAS 4 COLORS, but everything else has less.

AND THAT has been the entire bloody point of the whole damn series! The Snarl is made up of 4 types of divine energy, so it massacres everything that has ever stood against it, because they only have 3 to work with.

Heck, all indications are the Gods were SHOCKED when the Order of the Scribble managed to contain the Snarl and seal the Rifts.

Which is why they are trying to bring the Dark One into things.
They need the Dark One to add a fourth color. This is the first time in how long a new color has come along.

So again, tell me how the Fiends are less vulnerable then the Gods, WHEN THE BLOODY SERIES IS ABOUT THAT FACT EVERYTHING IS.

[Ralin]

Because it's something the Fiends are overlooking. Are we actually safe from this thing?
Which is unexpected and out of character stupid, considering the power-level, scheming nature, and the intelligence of Archfiends.
...
So again, tell me how the Fiends are less vulnerable then the Gods, WHEN THE BLOODY SERIES IS ABOUT THAT FACT EVERYTHING IS.

Dude. The point is that it doesn't matter much whether the Fiends share whatever (theorized) vulnerability it is that makes the Snarl's attacks super-effective against deities because either way the Snarl is a world-destroying abomination that can probably swat them out of existence as easily as it does anything else. Whether its getting a x100 damage modifier or not is moot if the result is the same regardless.

There's no evidence that the fiends are stupidly overlooking anything on that front because all indications are that they're taking it as a given that this is the case and they only believe they're safe because they intend to emulate the gods' method of surviving the Snarl. Which is to say, staying hidden in the Outer Planes out of its reach.

[LadyTevar]

There's no evidence that the fiends are stupidly overlooking anything on that front because all indications are that they're taking it as a given that this is the case and they only believe they're safe because they intend to emulate the gods' method of surviving the Snarl. Which is to say, staying hidden in the Outer Planes out of its reach.

If I'm not mistaken, the Fiend's Plan is to allow the Gods to destroy this world, and then Attack in that slump between making the new prison/world and the point the Gods start regaining power of belief from the new creations on the planet.

Thus, the Snarl is again imprisoned inside a world, created by the Gods, so the Fiends won't have to worry about it.

[Ralin]

If I'm not mistaken, the Fiend's Plan is to allow the Gods to destroy this world, and then Attack in that slump between making the new prison/world and the point the Gods start regaining power of belief from the new creations on the planet.

Panel three implies this will happen during the period where they're waiting for the Snarl to calm down. So if it works any new world would be created by the new fiend gods, which is where I would expect problems to crop up.

point the Gods start regaining power of belief from the new creations on the planet

Are you assuming the mortals of the new world need time to build up religions and faith before it starts sustaining the gods? Because given the logistics (IIRC it's mentioned that many/most worlds don't last long compared to this one) I think it's a likely that mortal societies are created fully formed and worshipping. Otherwise you'd have elves and dragons who remember the creation of this world

[LadyTevar]

Are you assuming the mortals of the new world need time to build up religions and faith before it starts sustaining the gods? Because given the logistics (IIRC it's mentioned that many/most worlds don't last long compared to this one) I think it's a likely that mortal societies are created fully formed and worshipping. Otherwise you'd have elves and dragons who remember the creation of this world

Yes, I was assuming it took time to get things "up to speed".

[Solauren]

Problem with the Fiends plan -
Eventually, the Snarl will rip it's way out, and the Fiends may not have discovered how to make a new world.

No, no matter how you slice it, their new plan is over-reactionary.

[Ralin]

Problem with the Fiends plan -
Eventually, the Snarl will rip it's way out, and the Fiends may not have discovered how to make a new world.

No, no matter how you slice it, their new plan is over-reactionary.

Yeah I said that earlier. They're probably assuming gaining divine power will be enough to enable them to make a new world. They don't know (assuming they're not misleading Nale for their own purposes) how much experience the gods have at doing that and if their plan succeeded I expect that's where the whole thing would come apart from their own hubris.

Yes, I was assuming it took time to get things "up to speed".

You know how some creationists theorize that Satan planted dinosaur bones as fakes to deceive people? I wouldn't be surprised if the gods seed new worlds with the ruins of civilizations that never existed to spur on adventurers and exploration.

[Crazedwraith]

I'm not sure the fiend's plan is going to get so far that their post world destruction plan is going to matter.

[Ralin]

I'm not sure the fiend's plan is going to get so far that their post world destruction plan is going to matter.

Yeah but if it did that's where I'd expect them to be hoisted on their own petard.

So, thinking about it some more, the normal sequence is Snarl gets loose the Snarl or the gods destroy the world --> the gods batten down the hatches and hide in the Outer Planes while it rampages for decades to centuries --> new world is created when it settles down, which could take anywhere from a mythologically catchy seven days and seven nights to ??? --> mortals begin feeding the gods with their prayers and worship, which could take anywhere from instantly to generations.

The decades to centuries bit is the only part of this timeline where we have anything close to a solid number. And we're told those decades to centuries are enough to strain the gods' ability to survive without mortal worship and deities have failed to make it in the past. That means that number is significant. If the following two steps had similar or greater time scales then it seems like that would also have been mentioned earlier. So simplest answer is that 'waiting for the Snarl to calm down' is the longest step by a large margin.

[Solauren]

My big question on this is - why haven't the gods created more worlds, a safe distance away from the Snarl? (Relatively speaking), say on alternate material planes/demiplanes, or another Crystal Sphere? (assuming Spelljammer is a thing for them)

Do that, (which any 17th level wizard can do), and you have one planet that's the 'prison of the Snarl' planet. It breaks free, it does damage, sees nothing else around to trash, and then goes calm again. Meanwhile, the Gods are fine, mortals are mostly fine, etc

[Ralin]

Presumably those aren't things in this setting and anything on the mortal plane is within the Snarl's reach despite the gods' best efforts.

[Bedlam]

Or being a metaphysical sort of thing the Snarl isn't really imprisoned 'Inside the planet' it more 'inside the universe' when it breaks through it appears everywhere no matter if the material universe consists of 1 single planet or millions of them.

[Solauren]

Yeah, this is something we don't have enough information on.

For all we know, that 10th time they did it, it was SCI-FI that would make anything that was ever discussed on this board look wimpy, with thousands of galaxies of inhabited planets, and the Snarl escaped and devoured it in a few days.

[Ralin]

Seems like there has to be an upper limit to how big of a world (which may or may not include multiple planets or even planets at all) and how many mortals they can create. Otherwise they'd want to create trillions or quadrillions of mortals to derive worship from since more is better.

[Solauren]

Or maybe how much they can create without needing to rest. It could be they could make another world already, but they don't want to because of the Snarl risk.

For all we know, the end to this overall campaign arc (the Snarl) that Rich has is the gods seal it up with another color, and then 'okay, let's create more/recreate what was lost'.

And it ends with the Order of the Stick looking out over the planes, seeing what the gods just did, and seeing millions of worlds and going 'wow'
(Followed by Laser Snail zipping by)