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Sea Skimmer wrote:

Ren wrote:

Enforcer Talen wrote:which is why we send in one normal human without gear to learn where bagend is and if gandalf is there.

read. above. posts.

Oh sure Frodo gets robbed and they don't connect that to some stranger in town asking about him and whether or not he has any friends staying with him.

That connection get them what? Nothing at all. We have no reason to return to the Shire unless we attempt to buy ships from the Elves, in which case we just send a different person.

They know the Ringwraiths didn't do it. They can track that person, they may track him back to you. There is zero reason not to aquire it at the time of the party, which incidently happens 18 years before the war starts and one year after our arrival, so we should do that.

Durandal wrote:

Ren wrote:

Enforcer Talen wrote:which is why we send in one normal human without gear to learn where bagend is and if gandalf is there.

read. above. posts.

Oh sure Frodo gets robbed and they don't connect that to some stranger in town asking about him and whether or not he has any friends staying with him.

Why bother asking around? Just set up a reconnaissance position with our nifty things called binoculars and look for fucking Elijah Wood running around. We've got plenty of time. You're being needlessly difficult about all this.

You have binoculors that can see through hills! Rember Hobbiton is hilly. I want some. Also I don't Frodo looks like Elijah Wood, first of all he is fairly fat and second he turn's 33 about a year after are arrival, Elijah Wood didn't look 33 to me.

Ren wrote:
He will attempt to find out and that will lead him to you.

And once he locates us in three quarters of a million square miles of Middle Earth, we've got the ring secured inside of steel and the threat is dealt with.

I was think more allong the lines of people you were talking to to get directions to his house. If you are not going to be disquised when you do this then they will remember you and your sharade is off.

So what? They know a human came looking for the ring and the ring disspeared. Horrors.


[sarcastic] I wasn't aware that you had stealth suits that let you move invisbly though cities without leaving a trace. [/sarcastic] You have to talk to someone I doubt sneaking around town reading adresses would work.

No he doesn't he won't have this information for another 18 years.

So we should wait till the last minute when we've only got one shot? Great Idea. I think the "use the 18 years to try and destroy the thing" option is a bit better.

Gandalf is their at the night of the party, he is their at other specific dates, he vists regularly, there is no reason to go looking for him.

And he would let us have the ring why? There is no guarantee he would, in fact it think its highly unlikely,so where stuck facing him, only at a disadvantage compared to him coming to use.

They will attempt to learn who has taken it. Gandalf already suspects it is the One Ring, he will look into it.

Yeah, Middle Earth is a real small place. He might find us, but not before we can attempt to destroy it, and if that fails encase it in steel.

The shire is guarded by rangers at all times. One of the area's most prominent citzens being robbed will be big news they will look into it.

So what? We can outrun them, out fight them and have people trained to evade tracking in our group.

That and that you could potential allinating your entirt list of allies for no good reason.

All of them except, the Dwarfs, Rohan, Gondor, Elfs, Ents and a few others. In other worlds, everyone but the vast majority of the combat power.

Durandal wrote:OK Ren, let me outline our respective plans for you, with timeframes included.

c. 1 year before Bilbo's birthday party:
We arrive in Middle Earth and begin setting up our base and training everyone.

c. Bilbo's birthday party:
We have everyone trained in basic firearms and marksmanship.
Bilbo leaves the Shire.
Frodo gets the Ring.
Gandalf runs off to research the Ring.

c. 1 year after Biblo's birthday:
We now have fully-trained soldiers and a commando unit to send into the Shire.
We begin making preparations to steal the Ring. We study the layout of Frodo's house and possibly construct a replica of it to drill the infiltration team through the mission.
We send agents into the Shire posing as human travelers. They walk around and locate Frodo's house. They make rough maps and take pictures.
We use the agents' intelligence to fully plan out the operation on the Shire.
We drill the operation more.
We send the commando team into the Shire. They wait for cover of nightfall and for a night when Frodo goes out to the local bar drinking. While he's gone, they break in, locate the Ring and steal it. If Frodo keeps it on him, they wait for a night when he goes out to a bar, come back home drunk and break in, stealing the Ring. They make minimal noise and chloroform Frodo so that he doesn't raise the alarm until morning, when they'll be long-gone.
The commandoes return with the Ring, and we do what we wish with it.

In other words, we have possession of the Ring with more than 10 years to spare before Sarumon's betrayal takes full-swing and he begins building up his army and before the Nine begin looking for the Ring. In other words, we can potentially destroy the Ring with our own technology with a casualty rate of zero. Furthermore, we can all go back home before we've turned old and decrepit.

You, on the other hand, would have us sit on our asses, wasting time trying to track down Gandalf, which would lengthen our stay in Middle Earth and increase the probability of casualties by delaying the Ring's destruction. With your scenario, we could potentially go to war. With mine, the risk of war is extremely low. Who's sounds better, again?

Or we could do what I have been saying all along and talk to them at the time of the party and advoid all the pitfalls of the commando raid. And if we miss him at the party then we just wait in all likelyhood he will be back for a visit before you are ready to act.

Especially if you build a replica which you will have to do away from the shire since it is watched and populated.

As for the length of time unless you want to assult Biblo's house, (which may or may not be filled with other people such as dwarves and the like) then you have to wait tell some time after the party then you have to train to assult it further lengthing the stay. The chance winning easly is better with my scenerio because you don't risk losing potential allies like the Rangers and Gandalf.

You are advocating stealing the ring and potential hurting us in the extreme on the off chance Gandalf will be totally unreasable.

Ren wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Ren wrote: You are going to battle so the first thing you do is shot yourself in the leg and throw away your weapon. Does that sound sane to you because that is what you are suggesting.

Gandalf is still going to fight Mordor, and the Hobbits and Rangers contribution was minor, far less then our arsenal of rifles, chemical weapons and artillery would be. Securing the ring is far more important then them.

The rangers contributions were not minor. Strider lead the army of the Rangers throught out the Return of the king. He is the King. The rangers turned the tide at gondor with the help of the southern armies. The ring may be secured without alientaing them quite easily, I think we should do it. Gandalf will have 18 years to look for the you and attempt to stop you a think he will be able to cause just about everyone to turn against you during that time.

A barrage of Mustard gas will contribute more then a King or Rangers. I doubt the main body of Sauron's forces would ever even reach the western bank of the Anduin. There are only a few crossing points after all, and troops massing to cross represent insanely easy targets. We'd also have at least a few regiments with Muskets for support.

The forces at Isenguard may never even be assmbled.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Ren wrote:
He will attempt to find out and that will lead him to you.

And once he locates us in three quarters of a million square miles of Middle Earth, we've got the ring secured inside of steel and the threat is dealt with.

I was think more allong the lines of people you were talking to to get directions to his house. If you are not going to be disquised when you do this then they will remember you and your sharade is off.

So what? They know a human came looking for the ring and the ring disspeared. Horrors.


[sarcastic] I wasn't aware that you had stealth suits that let you move invisbly though cities without leaving a trace. [/sarcastic] You have to talk to someone I doubt sneaking around town reading adresses would work.

No he doesn't he won't have this information for another 18 years.

So we should wait till the last minute when we've only got one shot? Great Idea. I think the "use the 18 years to try and destroy the thing" option is a bit better.

Gandalf is their at the night of the party, he is their at other specific dates, he vists regularly, there is no reason to go looking for him.

And he would let us have the ring why? There is no guarantee he would, in fact it think its highly unlikely,so where stuck facing him, only at a disadvantage compared to him coming to use.

They will attempt to learn who has taken it. Gandalf already suspects it is the One Ring, he will look into it.

Yeah, Middle Earth is a real small place. He might find us, but not before we can attempt to destroy it, and if that fails encase it in steel.

The shire is guarded by rangers at all times. One of the area's most prominent citzens being robbed will be big news they will look into it.

So what? We can outrun them, out fight them and have people trained to evade tracking in our group.

That and that you could potential allinating your entirt list of allies for no good reason.

All of them except, the Dwarfs, Rohan, Gondor, Elfs, Ents and a few others. In other worlds, everyone but the vast majority of the combat power.

Oh you mean the Ent's who are lead by Gandalfs good freind Treebeard, and Dwarves who gandalf helped create one of their kingdoms. Or the Elves like Galadrial and Elrond who are also Gandalfs friends, or Gondor, gandalfs on decent terms with the regent and on great terms with the king, and Theoden was an old friend of Gandalfs, though in the latter years wormtongue poisoned him against gandalf, a short speach made him a valuble ally again. I guess these don't constitute the major miltary powers.

Gandalf only wants to destroy the ring, he won't try to stop us.

The rangers are on their home ground trying to outrun them or evade tracking them might get you killed, running into the something like the barrowdowns or the midgewater marshes might kill you off. Why risk it?

and finally I AM NOT WAITING TELL THE LAST MINUTE THE PARTY HAPPENS IN ONE (1) YEAR AFTER WE ARRIVE YOU WOULD HAVE TO WAIT LONGER THAN ME TO IMPLEMENT YOUR PLAN.

Gandalf wants the ring destroyed if we could convince him that we had a decent shot at it he would let us. We could even bring the means to do so with us and try it right then (might be advantages incase unleases a Nuclear blast or something when destroyed) We could convince him of our good intentions especially since we know alot that he is only guessing at at this point, Furthermore we could show him that it is the one ring so he will not run around trying to find out if it is.

Ren wrote:Or we could do what I have been saying all along and talk to them at the time of the party and advoid all the pitfalls of the commando raid. And if we miss him at the party then we just wait in all likelyhood he will be back for a visit before you are ready to act.

And what are the chances of him giving us the Ring? He'll just happily hand it over to us when we already have more power at our disposal than the entirety of Middle Earth combined? Are you fucking insane? He'll probably tell us to go fuck ourselves.

Especially if you build a replica which you will have to do away from the shire since it is watched and populated.

That's why we do it back at the base, using the descriptions in the books as guides.

As for the length of time unless you want to assult Biblo's house, (which may or may not be filled with other people such as dwarves and the like) then you have to wait tell some time after the party then you have to train to assult it further lengthing the stay. The chance winning easly is better with my scenerio because you don't risk losing potential allies like the Rangers and Gandalf.

In my scenario, we don't need allies. That's the difference. Yours forces us to make allies. We could potentially seal the deal in under 3 years without relying on the preposterously small chance of Gandalf just giving us the Ring after just meeting us.

You are advocating stealing the ring and potential hurting us in the extreme on the off chance Gandalf will be totally unreasable.

What sounds reasonable? Keeping the Ring where you can see it, or giving it to complete strangers who claim to be from another world possessing lots of firepower who just happened to know where the Ring was at that exact moment? Don't be absurd.

Your plan has an extremely large variable. Mine has lots of high probabilities for success. It's not hard to infiltrate the Shire disguised as travelers just walking around. It's not hard to break into a midget's house which has no modern security systems with advanced technology. It's not hard to cover our tracks. It's not hard to plug Rangers with tranquilizer darts if they come after us. We don't have to kill anyone.

Durandal wrote:

Ren wrote:Or we could do what I have been saying all along and talk to them at the time of the party and advoid all the pitfalls of the commando raid. And if we miss him at the party then we just wait in all likelyhood he will be back for a visit before you are ready to act.

And what are the chances of him giving us the Ring? He'll just happily hand it over to us when we already have more power at our disposal than the entirety of Middle Earth combined? Are you fucking insane? He'll probably tell us to go fuck ourselves.

Especially if you build a replica which you will have to do away from the shire since it is watched and populated.

That's why we do it back at the base, using the descriptions in the books as guides.

The books don't describe it in enough detail to try to build a replica, if you go back after reneciance that adds years to your timetable.

Durandal wrote:

As for the length of time unless you want to assult Biblo's house, (which may or may not be filled with other people such as dwarves and the like) then you have to wait tell some time after the party then you have to train to assult it further lengthing the stay. The chance winning easly is better with my scenerio because you don't risk losing potential allies like the Rangers and Gandalf.

In my scenario, we don't need allies. That's the difference. Yours forces us to make allies. We could potentially seal the deal in under 3 years without relying on the preposterously small chance of Gandalf just giving us the Ring after just meeting us.

No he's not likely to, but he probalby will agree to move it to a safer location, let us try to destroy it, and encase it in steel. After we convince him of our good intentions we will probalby allow us to attempt to destroy it via Mount Doom.

As for allies, what if you can't destroy it, are willing to try to take down Mordor by yourself? That's foolishly optimistic since you have no idea of the defenses of Mordor at this point in time, for all you know they may be impenentrable even with modern technology.

Durandal wrote:

You are advocating stealing the ring and potential hurting us in the extreme on the off chance Gandalf will be totally unreasable.

What sounds reasonable? Keeping the Ring where you can see it, or giving it to complete strangers who claim to be from another world possessing lots of firepower who just happened to know where the Ring was at that exact moment? Don't be absurd.

Gandalf never has to leave sight of the Ring, In fact I would perfer that he come with us. He is a valuble ally.

Durandal wrote: Your plan has an extremely large variable. Mine has lots of high probabilities for success. It's not hard to infiltrate the Shire disguised as travelers just walking around. It's not hard to break into a midget's house which has no modern security systems with advanced technology. It's not hard to cover our tracks. It's not hard to plug Rangers with tranquilizer darts if they come after us. We don't have to kill anyone.

Mine also has a high probablity of success, Gandalf is NOT stupid he will listen to reason especially if we don't do something stupid like try to steal the ring. Your's also has a lot of large varibles. The deployment of the Rangers for one, your ability to destroy the Ring, the defenses of Mordor, the Rangers and Gandalf's tracking and information gathering abilities. The location of the Ring on the night of the attack, the presence of guests in the house.

Ren wrote:Gandalf only wants to destroy the ring, he won't try to stop us.

You delusional if you think that. Our background story is absurd, he doesn’t know us and has no reason to trust us, our abilities indicate a power form of magic and we want to ring and are human. He has every reason NOT to give us the ring, especially since our planning for it call for either destruction, something Gandalf thinks is impossible, or to simply encase it and wait, a course of action he is also very unlikely to want.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Ren wrote:Gandalf only wants to destroy the ring, he won't try to stop us.

You delusional if you think that. Our background story is absurd, he doesn't know us and has no reason to trust us, our abilities indicate a power form of magic and we want to ring and are human. He has every reason NOT to give us the ring, especially since our planning for it call for either destruction, something Gandalf thinks is impossible, or to simply encase it and wait, a course of action he is also very unlikely to want.

Suppose we are going to destroy the ring with thermite. We simply take some with us, demenstrate it's effects for him and allow it's use on the ring, that should prove we really are serius. State the obviuse fact that he would be leaving tomorrow, without us he would not have realized that it was the one ring and we could have just killed Frodo and taken it then allow him a couple days to think it over, and then ask him to take it to rivendell, with or without us, and he can bring friends, like Aragorn and other rangers ect. He will see that we aren't the Enemy.

Ren wrote:The books don't describe it in enough detail to try to build a replica, if you go back after reneciance that adds years to your timetable.

Keep picking that nit. Do you realize that we could just as easily execute the operation without a replica?

No he's not likely to, but he probalby will agree to move it to a safer location, let us try to destroy it, and encase it in steel. After we convince him of our good intentions we will probalby allow us to attempt to destroy it via Mount Doom.

And what if he doesn't? Then we're stuck trying to take it from him by force, and this time we won't have surprise or stealth. We'll be up against a wizard who could turn the entire team into cats if he felt like it. The ramifications of Gandalf telling us to go fuck ourselves are serious enough that they don't justify approaching him. If Gandalf tells us to fuck off, the probability of getting the Ring then and there has dropped to zero. That's not a risk we should take, especially when there are much easier, more covert ways of obtaining it.

As for allies, what if you can't destroy it, are willing to try to take down Mordor by yourself? That's foolishly optimistic since you have no idea of the defenses of Mordor at this point in time, for all you know they may be impenentrable even with modern technology.

No, we send emissaries to Rivendel ... like I said earlier. Please read what I write. We can explain our actions and how we came about acquiring the Ring to them at that time, when we will have had something to back up our claims of trustworthiness.

Gandalf never has to leave sight of the Ring, In fact I would perfer that he come with us. He is a valuble ally.

Assuming he doesn't think we're full of shit.

Mine also has a high probablity of success, Gandalf is NOT stupid he will listen to reason especially if we don't do something stupid like try to steal the ring. Your's also has a lot of large varibles. The deployment of the Rangers for one, your ability to destroy the Ring, the defenses of Mordor, the Rangers and Gandalf's tracking and information gathering abilities. The location of the Ring on the night of the attack, the presence of guests in the house.

You have no fucking clue how a military operation works, do you? The commando squad isn't going to launch to operation the night they get there, genius. They're patient people, who can sit by and wait for a good time to go in. They can bring along some clothes and pose as travelers, perform basic recon, find out what's happening where. From there, they plan out when they go in.

The Rangers can be dealt with via automatic weapons or tranquilizer darts. They're far from a problem.
The ability to destroy the Ring is not a critical portion of my plan. The critical portion is possessing the Ring as soon as possible, which then opens up more options for us, especially considering that no one knows we have it. The goal is to get the Ring as soon as possible and go from there. My plan's variables can all be overcome. If Frodo has guests in the house, wait until he doesn't. If Frodo carries the Ring on him, wait until he's asleep. If the Rangers come out after us, shoot them.
Yours has an insurmountable possibility. If Gandalf says no, we're fucked. You rest everything on Gandalf. Having a "make or break" point is not something that is preferable in a plan of attack. It needs to be robust. My plan is robust. One part can fail and the others will still work. Yours cannot go on if Gandalf says no.

What if we just leave well enough alone? According to the books things dont start going south for the fellowship till after they leave Lorien .We coul;d start by merly shadowing Frodo and Sam in the Shire sending the Nazgul on fake paths making it harder for them, to catch up,remeber once they have the ferry the Nazgul need to cross a bridge*VEG* what if they find said bridge blown up or if they try a ford they get shot by rifle fire?

KISS Keep it SImple if we start fucking with things from the start Sauron could end up with the one ring so lets just work from the shadows,be ghosts ,not letting our foes know we are there till they are dead.

and - about the comment we are asking about frodo and gandalf directly? of course not. a wizard in town is the loudest news. that's no worries. and we can just get one of the hobbits to talk abot fam, direct to baggins, and find out directions that way. very simple, very unsuspecting.

Durandal wrote:

Ren wrote:The books don't describe it in enough detail to try to build a replica, if you go back after reneciance that adds years to your timetable.

Keep picking that nit. Do you realize that we could just as easily execute the operation without a replica?

I was just pointing out that the replica idea would only add to the timetable. You are the one that seems to be stressing the importance of time.

Durandal wrote:

No he's not likely to, but he probalby will agree to move it to a safer location, let us try to destroy it, and encase it in steel. After we convince him of our good intentions we will probalby allow us to attempt to destroy it via Mount Doom.

And what if he doesn't? Then we're stuck trying to take it from him by force, and this time we won't have surprise or stealth. We'll be up against a wizard who could turn the entire team into cats if he felt like it. The ramifications of Gandalf telling us to go fuck ourselves are serious enough that they don't justify approaching him. If Gandalf tells us to fuck off, the probability of getting the Ring then and there has dropped to zero. That's not a risk we should take, especially when there are much easier, more covert ways of obtaining it.

Then we don't try to take it by force. ( as a completely irrelevent aside Radagast is more likely to turn you into cats, Gandalf will probably burn you horribly ) What is the likelyhood of him being unreasanable, this guy is described as being very wise and probably will be so the ramifications are irrelevent, The ramifications of Sauron teleporting to the Shire and grabing the Ring are pretty bad to, but that's not likely to happen.

Durandal wrote:

As for allies, what if you can't destroy it, are willing to try to take down Mordor by yourself? That's foolishly optimistic since you have no idea of the defenses of Mordor at this point in time, for all you know they may be impenentrable even with modern technology.

No, we send emissaries to Rivendel ... like I said earlier. Please read what I write. We can explain our actions and how we came about acquiring the Ring to them at that time, when we will have had something to back up our claims of trustworthiness.

We prove our trustworthyness by stealing the Ring? I'm sorry I don't follow you.

Durandal wrote:

Gandalf never has to leave sight of the Ring, In fact I would perfer that he come with us. He is a valuble ally.

Assuming he doesn't think we're full of shit.

Which is a probably a good assumption.

Durandal wrote:

Mine also has a high probablity of success, Gandalf is NOT stupid he will listen to reason especially if we don't do something stupid like try to steal the ring. Your's also has a lot of large varibles. The deployment of the Rangers for one, your ability to destroy the Ring, the defenses of Mordor, the Rangers and Gandalf's tracking and information gathering abilities. The location of the Ring on the night of the attack, the presence of guests in the house.

You have no fucking clue how a military operation works, do you? The commando squad isn't going to launch to operation the night they get there, genius. They're patient people, who can sit by and wait for a good time to go in. They can bring along some clothes and pose as travelers, perform basic recon, find out what's happening where. From there, they plan out when they go in.

The Rangers can be dealt with via automatic weapons or tranquilizer darts. They're far from a problem.
The ability to destroy the Ring is not a critical portion of my plan. The critical portion is possessing the Ring as soon as possible, which then opens up more options for us, especially considering that no one knows we have it. The goal is to get the Ring as soon as possible and go from there. My plan's variables can all be overcome. If Frodo has guests in the house, wait until he doesn't. If Frodo carries the Ring on him, wait until he's asleep. If the Rangers come out after us, shoot them.
Yours has an insurmountable possibility. If Gandalf says no, we're fucked. You rest everything on Gandalf. Having a "make or break" point is not something that is preferable in a plan of attack. It needs to be robust. My plan is robust. One part can fail and the others will still work. Yours cannot go on if Gandalf says no.

Yes we can. Having the ring is not the be all and end all of the mission, it would be nice to have it but even without it doing things like assisting with weaponary and defenses can still allow us to win. Gandalf's possible relectance does not break the scenerio, we are still ahead because now he knows it is the one ring and that Sauron will soon know it and Sarumen is possibly not to be trusted.

As for the make and break point of your scenerio you rest everything on aquiring the ring and being completly untracible. If you fail that your mission is hosed no matter what you do unless you are able to take on the whole of middle earth by yourself.

As for time you seem to be emphasising the importance of acting quickly but advocate a plan that could take years longer than mine. If we have years to wait in aquiring the ring through covert methods we also have years of trying to preuade Gandalf.

Typhonis 1 wrote:What if we just leave well enough alone? According to the books things dont start going south for the fellowship till after they leave Lorien .We coul;d start by merly shadowing Frodo and Sam in the Shire sending the Nazgul on fake paths making it harder for them, to catch up,remeber once they have the ferry the Nazgul need to cross a bridge*VEG* what if they find said bridge blown up or if they try a ford they get shot by rifle fire?

KISS Keep it SImple if we start fucking with things from the start Sauron could end up with the one ring so lets just work from the shadows,be ghosts ,not letting our foes know we are there till they are dead.

The Fellowship was nearly defeated or wiped out far too many times before it reached Lorien. We cannot trust on them having the same run of good luck. Neutralizing the ring early leave one less thing for us to worry about at a key time when we'd need everyone on the firing line to deal with the armies of Saruman and Saruon.

Typhonis 1 wrote:What if we just leave well enough alone? According to the books things dont start going south for the fellowship till after they leave Lorien .We coul;d start by merly shadowing Frodo and Sam in the Shire sending the Nazgul on fake paths making it harder for them, to catch up,remeber once they have the ferry the Nazgul need to cross a bridge*VEG* what if they find said bridge blown up or if they try a ford they get shot by rifle fire?

That would require us sitting on our asses for 18 years. That means we'd be disastrously out of shape.

KISS Keep it SImple if we start fucking with things from the start Sauron could end up with the one ring so lets just work from the shadows,be ghosts ,not letting our foes know we are there till they are dead.

That's exactly what I propose: be completely unknown and covert. Sauron has almost zero chance of getting the Ring in my scenario, because we control it.

Typhonis 1 wrote:What if we just leave well enough alone? According to the books things dont start going south for the fellowship till after they leave Lorien .We coul;d start by merly shadowing Frodo and Sam in the Shire sending the Nazgul on fake paths making it harder for them, to catch up,remeber once they have the ferry the Nazgul need to cross a bridge*VEG* what if they find said bridge blown up or if they try a ford they get shot by rifle fire?

KISS Keep it SImple if we start fucking with things from the start Sauron could end up with the one ring so lets just work from the shadows,be ghosts ,not letting our foes know we are there till they are dead.

Well we are still messing with things and that may still result in Sauron getting the Ring. You didn't eliminate the problem with direct interverntion by just ghosting and ghosting would be horribly hard especially if the first thing you did altered the sequence of events. Much better to act proactivly and know the sequence of events will be diffrent then plan for thing to happen a certian way and be screwed when they don't.

if we take it while their on the trail, half of rivendell will be after us. best to do it a decade before, while we plot our next move and no one knows we have it.

Ren wrote:

Typhonis 1 wrote:What if we just leave well enough alone? According to the books things dont start going south for the fellowship till after they leave Lorien .We coul;d start by merly shadowing Frodo and Sam in the Shire sending the Nazgul on fake paths making it harder for them, to catch up,remeber once they have the ferry the Nazgul need to cross a bridge*VEG* what if they find said bridge blown up or if they try a ford they get shot by rifle fire?

KISS Keep it SImple if we start fucking with things from the start Sauron could end up with the one ring so lets just work from the shadows,be ghosts ,not letting our foes know we are there till they are dead.

Well we are still messing with things and that may still result in Sauron getting the Ring. You didn't eliminate the problem with direct interverntion by just ghosting and ghosting would be horribly hard especially if the first thing you did altered the sequence of events. Much better to act proactivly and know the sequence of events will be diffrent then plan for thing to happen a certian way and be screwed when they don't.

Sauron's chances of getting through our defenses, let alone even reaching our base or cracking open a huge steel black are FAR less then the likeliness that Gandalf will refuse to give some unknown people an ultimate ring of power that could spell the end of the world in the wrong hands.

particularly when humans arent known for their willpower.

Durandal wrote:

KISS Keep it SImple if we start fucking with things from the start Sauron could end up with the one ring so lets just work from the shadows,be ghosts ,not letting our foes know we are there till they are dead.

That's exactly what I propose: be completely unknown and covert. Sauron has almost zero chance of getting the Ring in my scenario, because we control it.

In any scenario which has us obtain the Ring early or warn Gandalf, Sauron also has almost zero chance of getting the Ring. It will be either with us or with Gandalf and Frodo neither of which will be in the Shire.

Ok good point but by this time 18 years later would any of us be in any shape to fight? I`d be 50

we can defend the ring better then gandalf, he wont trust us, and there's a reason farmgirls exist. . .

Ren wrote:

Durandal wrote:

KISS Keep it SImple if we start fucking with things from the start Sauron could end up with the one ring so lets just work from the shadows,be ghosts ,not letting our foes know we are there till they are dead.

That's exactly what I propose: be completely unknown and covert. Sauron has almost zero chance of getting the Ring in my scenario, because we control it.

In any scenario which has us obtain the Ring early or warn Gandalf, Sauron also has almost zero chance of getting the Ring. It will be either with us or with Gandalf and Frodo neither of which will be in the Shire.

Gandalf has no reason to trust or listen too us. And your scenario has the least chance of us getting the ring, which is the key. We have the ability to take the ring out of play without going to Mt Doom, Gandalf does not.

Ren wrote:Then we don't try to take it by force. ( as a completely irrelevent aside Radagast is more likely to turn you into cats, Gandalf will probably burn you horribly ) What is the likelyhood of him being unreasanable, this guy is described as being very wise and probably will be so the ramifications are irrelevent, The ramifications of Sauron teleporting to the Shire and grabing the Ring are pretty bad to, but that's not likely to happen.

The better question to ask is "What do you define as reasonable if you were in his position? Giving a hugely powerful asset to people you just met because they claim they are visitors from another dimension with only good intentions, or not trusting them as far as you can throw them?" We're human. That means we're easily corruptible to Gandalf and that we're not to be trusted with the Ring.

We prove our trustworthyness by stealing the Ring? I'm sorry I don't follow you.

We prove our trustworthiness by having possessed the Ring for so much time and not being corrupted by it, and in fact, encasing it in a block of steel.

Yes we can. Having the ring is not the be all and end all of the mission, it would be nice to have it but even without it doing things like assisting with weaponary and defenses can still allow us to win.

Oh really? Winning is all well and good, but winning with zero casualties is always preferable. I can't make it any clearer to you: your plan has a higher casualty probability and a lower success probability than mine.

Gandalf's possible relectance does not break the scenerio, we are still ahead because now he knows it is the one ring and that Sauron will soon know it and Sarumen is possibly not to be trusted.

And yet we're not in control of the Ring and have to trust that everything will work out in a now-altered timeline. You just don't get it. Our presence there affects how things work out. Therefore, we have to control the Ring because the books will no longer be a reliable guide for how things will work out.

As for the make and break point of your scenerio you rest everything on aquiring the ring and being completly untracible. If you fail that your mission is hosed no matter what you do unless you are able to take on the whole of middle earth by yourself.

Except that we have bargaining power because we have the fucking Ring. A special commando unit could easily be in and out of the Shire before anyone even knows they're there and be long-gone by the time everyone else gets their thumbs out of their asses. You severely underestimate how effective these people are. So what if the rangers track them? Just plug them with some tranq darts and leave. Furthermore, where were the rangers when, oh, I dunno, a bunch of guys on black horses started decapitating Hobbits?

As for time you seem to be emphasising the importance of acting quickly but advocate a plan that could take years longer than mine. If we have years to wait in aquiring the ring through covert methods we also have years of trying to preuade Gandalf.

By doing what? Jesus Christ, don't you get it? We have to control the fucking Ring so we can be sure what's going on. Why the Hell should we waste time trying to con Gandalf into giving us, a bunch of humans, the fucking Ring?