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Destructionator XIII wrote:Just to be sure my position is clear, my first post after this chapter was an emotional knee-jerk. I apologize for insinuating some of you were fucked up or bad people.

Some of us even know we're fucked up and bad people.

ray245 wrote: So what you are saying is, it is unethical if humanity don't throw everything they have for our own survival?

I'd phrase it differently. It may not be necessary to throw everything we have. But we should always be prepared to.

That's not precisely what I was trying to say; I was trying to say that merciless conduct actually is ethical in this particular context, because the survival of the human race is the prime value in any ethical system.

My apologies if I somewhat misunderstood what you were saying. However I do think you make an excellent point.

Did the gas attack wipe out the majority of the Harpy's, or did it just destroy those who had managed to advance the farthest? The text seems to imply that a massive portion of his 100,000 remain Harpy's died, but it could just be the shock of seeing such a huge group die in such a manner.

Darmalus wrote:Did the gas attack wipe out the majority of the Harpy's, or did it just destroy those who had managed to advance the farthest? The text seems to imply that a massive portion of his 100,000 remain Harpy's died, but it could just be the shock of seeing such a huge group die in such a manner.

I'm pretty sure almost all the harpies are gone.

Edit: Why does Beelzebub refer to the fliers as harpies? Isn't that a human term for them?

I assume the human term is based on myths of harpies as a type of demon and those myths originate from actual demons.

Surlethe wrote: Edit: Why does Beelzebub refer to the fliers as harpies? Isn't that a human term for them?

I think that the baldrick term for the harpies is simply being translated by Stuart into the already familiar term to make it easier for readers to identify them.

Not only did the harpies undoubtedly take horrific casualties from the Sarin gas attack, but I'd imagine that a large part of Beelzebub's army is about to march into the still-potent gas clouds and suffer a similar fate. Especially since they're a Bronze Age army and the front lines are being crushed forward by crowd pressure from the rear, so they're moving forward whether they like it or not. Sort of like the pressure of screaming teenaged fangirls trying to reach the stage at a boy band concert, but not as terrifying.

JN1 wrote:There is also the well known story of an F-4 and a B-52 that ends with 'just shut down two engines'.

I heard a sort of reverse version of this: a Viper pilot notices his engine's starting to overheat, so he calls the tower and asks for a priority landing. The tower radios back a moment later and says, "Got it, you're number two, right after a B-52 with an engine out."

The Viper pilot replies, "Ah, yes, the dreaded seven-engine landing."

Would someone more knowledgable enlighten us on exactly how difficult it was to organise and prep such aerial support for the Russian army?

While B-52s routinely supported US army operations in Vietnam, I presume that such aerial operations was made infinitely more difficult here due to the chokepoint of the HellGate and limited airbases/weather?

Once they're in theater it isn't a problem. So long as one has a reasonable idea as to how the battlefield is shaped and can plan air support beforehand, it isn't all that difficult. It becomes extremely difficult when an enemy achieves a surprise breakthrough and air support is needed to kill the thrust.

PainRack wrote:Would someone more knowledgable enlighten us on exactly how difficult it was to organise and prep such aerial support for the Russian army?

It was a preplanned attack, so it wasn't all that technically difficult. The bomber crews need to know what to drop, where, and when. They can calculate that from information elicited from the Russians. We would have assigned a team of air controllers to the Russian staff.

The tricky part would be getting the aircraft in through Hellgate, and marshalled at the correct time. Given the fluidity of battle, and the relatively short endurance of any aircraft, even a Buff, the timing is critical.

I wonder if the rear echelons of Beelzebub's army are aware of what's happening at the front. Beelzebub appears to be observing the battle from an elevated position so he can see what's happening, but I'm guessing that the baldricks in the rear of his army can't see anything but the mass of baldricks in front of them.

PainRack wrote: While B-52s routinely supported US army operations in Vietnam, I presume that such aerial operations was made infinitely more difficult here due to the chokepoint of the HellGate and limited airbases/weather?

Outside of the sieges of Khe Sanh and An Loc the B-52s actually did relatively little to directly support the US Army and Marines in Vietnam. The vast majority of missions flown over South Vietnam simply bombed random areas of jungle we suspected might hold VC, while others bombed random hills in Laos and Cambodia trying to knock out the Ho Chin Mihn trail via landslides. Sometimes B-52 strikes would proceed large air mobile operations, but that wasn’t typical. Often the bombers, which usually took off from Guam in several small groups over the course of the day, simply got launched towards Nam, with only a general area assigned, the specific target would be assigned in the air based on whatever the latest intelligence happened to be. When coverage was available, special ground based radars would then guide the B-52s onto the precise area of empty jungle we had slatted for destruction, the radars even commanded when to drop the bombs. Today we have much better aircraft radars so that isn’t really necessary.

JN1 wrote:In war it is sometime necessary to kill lots of people in the short term to save many more in the longer term. Moreover keeping a war as short as possible will save lives.

That reminds me of the old, tired, and illogical trope (the name of which escapes me at the moment) where the bad guy holds somebody hostage and demands that the heroes hand over the MacGuffins that'll let him destroy/rule the world in exchange for the hostage's life; this is of course often done with no intention of actually releasing the hostage. Just once, I'd like to see a subversion where the bad guy tries this tactic and promply gets killed, with both heroes and hostage escaping with said MacGuffins.

The assumptions:

*The universe is fundamentally rational, that is, it can be understood through the use of reason alone;

*Truth can be arrived at through empirical observation, the use of reason, and systematic doubt;

*If you hit anything hard enough, it will break.


So far only the first two parts have come up, but when the Angel of Death gets nuked (that's my prediction and I'm sticking to it until I'm proved totally wrong), we'll be seeing the third. (A really ironic line for killing him would be "Death, thou shalt die!" since it comes from religious poetry. Also, it would be the only semi-useful thing to come out of 12th grade English, pulling that line out.)


Question about the Russian tankmen: are they going to be mentioned again to see what happens to humans who die in Hell?

Beelzebub must realize by now that the humans have been holding back. Prior to this battle, Beelzebub commented that the humans could not fight any harder than they had fought against Abigor: an assumption based upon the horrific casualties they inflicted against Abigor's army. But now, he has seen them unleash fearsome weapons that they never revealed before.

He must be wondering whether they are still holding some fresh horrors in reserve at this point.

The forces of Hell are looking at the near-complete destruction of their front-line fighting forces; does Satan realize how badly things are going? If the professional core of his army is wiped out, he will be vulnerable to takeover from Heaven, even if he should somehow vanquish the humans (a feat which Beelzebub must now realize is increasingly unlikely).

I wonder what will happen to Beelzebub. He can't return to Satan, Abigor was sentenced to a fate tantamount to death along with his entire family for losing sixty legions. Beelzebub is about to lose over 8 times that number and in his own backyard to boot. Even if he retreats with the remnants of his army intact, he's going to have lots of explaining to do.

Abigor's probably going to have a new roommate soon.

Eulogy wrote:
That reminds me of the old, tired, and illogical trope (the name of which escapes me at the moment) where the bad guy holds somebody hostage and demands that the heroes hand over the MacGuffins that'll let him destroy/rule the world in exchange for the hostage's life; this is of course often done with no intention of actually releasing the hostage. Just once, I'd like to see a subversion where the bad guy tries this tactic and promply gets killed, with both heroes and hostage escaping with said MacGuffins.

You mean like this?

Korben Dallas: We need to find the leader, Mangalores won't fight without the leader.
Aknot: One more shot, and we start killing hostages!
Korben Dallas: That's the leader.
Aknot: Send someone to negotiate.
Fog: [as Dallas looks at him] Uh, I-I've never negotiated before.
Korben Dallas: Do you mind if I try?
Fog: No, sure, sure, sure.
[shouts]
Fog: We're sending somebody in to negotiate!
[Corben walks into the room and shoots Aknot between the eyes. As he falls, the other Mangalores drop their weapons and bow over him, keening]
Korben Dallas: Anybody else want to negotiate?

Or at 6:36 of this?

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=aBxO9h6NDm0

Why must you resort to fiction? You live in Toronto; remember Anthony Brooks in 2004, who took a hostage in downtown Toronto and caught a bullet to the head from the police for his troubles?

Stuart wrote:The V-agents are being held back in case of future need. Remember human strategy is to reveal as little as possible of their capability at any one time. We won't even begin to get into T-2 Trichothecene Mycotoxin yet.

What, no Novichok agents? Though given how dangerous they're supposed to be (designed to defeat protective gear) I expect nobody would want to use them anywhere near where humans will be operating.

I rather had the impression that Eulogy was speaking of fiction rather than real life hostage incidents.

As for Brooks, that was well done by TPS. Still rough on the victim, though, not to mention the officer involved.

Mayabird wrote: So far only the first two parts have come up, but when the Angel of Death gets nuked (that's my prediction and I'm sticking to it until I'm proved totally wrong), we'll be seeing the third. (A really ironic line for killing him would be "Death, thou shalt die!" since it comes from religious poetry. Also, it would be the only semi-useful thing to come out of 12th grade English, pulling that line out.)

I think we've already hit this point; Beelzebub just thought in the last chapter that the sarin bombardment the humans unleashed easily outdid whatever plagues Uriel could possibly manage.

Peptuck wrote:I think we've already hit this point; Beelzebub just thought in the last chapter that the sarin bombardment the humans unleashed easily outdid whatever plagues Uriel could possibly manage.

That assumes Beelzebub has accurate intel as to Uriel's abilities. It's entirely possible that Yaweh has always kept him in a short leash, as a secret reserve, just in case.

Also: Why are General Petraeus and the Russian General calling each other funny names?