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RogueIce wrote:Now I know you're making things up. There was never such a time.

Well, when Shroomanian was called Gurren-Britannia and was located NORTH not South of France, maybe.

Shinn Langley Soryu wrote:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Now let's go ruin Langley's shit!

Ah, but that begs the question: How do Ganesha Gobinda (who may or may not be the batshit ex-Astarian Colonel Kurtz) and Deacon Saito really know that Shirin and her guys are really jihadis instead of Zorian military?

A premonition from the All-Father!

I think the Odinists should totally get revenue from their brothers in the Zorian Yakuza, along with the Bloods and Crips who've converted to the Norse faith. With Zorian pharmaceutical companies providing an illicit drug called VALKYR to drive people into deranged sociopathic killing machines with visions of Valkyries and the world set aflame by Ragnarok.

I'm TOTALLY ready to write something about Zorian crime syndicates, with their hyperthyroid drugged-up stormtrooper gangbangers, ruining the shit out of the local Mushroom Mafia and Canissian Cartels and requiring hardboiled monologuing slow-motioning detectives to ruin their shit in turn.

The Shinran Syndicate should try to make their own alternative to the drug VALKYR, namely GEOSTIGMA. The side-effects will be different, since they'll be seeing One-Winged Angels instead of Valkyries, and the world will be set aflame not by Ragnarok but by the coming of Mother.

The Mushroom Mafia will answer this by dosing up their own goons with STEROIDS - making them all masculated murder machines, although with shrunken testicles and engorged breasts, which they will use to smother Zorian Yakuzas and Shinran Albino Anarchists with.


FUCK YEAH!

Oh no you don't, Zor. You don't get to decide "Oh, they're totally in the wrong and our expansion didn't touch their lands". That entire area was considered Egsa and Malip tribal land with patches of settlement, which makes sense given that such communities would very much be focused along the river for ease of transport, access to fishing, and relatively fresh water. Every post you've made until now has announced the River Basin as being in Zoria's zone, which means you would directly claim hold over their land.

Now, if as a negotiation term you want to offer to withdraw from all claimed Malip territory and recognize it as such in exchange for transit rights up and down the river, that's reasonable. But deciding to write out the territorial dispositions in a manner entirely in the benefit of Zoria's position is blatant powergaming and unacceptable.

... of course, since Zor's post contains nothing but the Zorian king's view of the situation, its perfectly sensible for it to be slanted toward Zoria. I expect the Caliph (and the Emperor) to politely inform His Worshipfulness the King that he's full of shit of course, but I don't really have a problem with Zoria being biased in favor of Zoria (and being totally wrong). After all, Zoria has a pretty long legacy of bias to uphold.

If in Zor's post there'd been statements of fact by an omniscient narrator, I'd be miffed as well. But dialog from an in-context character - the King - reflects just that person's opinion. I expected nothing less from him- hell it'd be odd if he didn't argue that Zoria was totally in the right here.

I agree to a point, but if we take your POV it just turns King Leighton into not just a wildly-biased figure arguing an extreme position as basis, but we make him so deluded as to think he can put up a completely untrue map of local claims and "actual positions" to the Byzantine Emperor as well as the Caliph of Syria and get away with it.

It's an isolated island-nation ruled by a monarchy of nobles. As the (Byzantine) Commander Ciaphas Cain would think, their nobility is probably spawned by inbreeding.

Shroomy, mang

I do not have the creative juices to make Batmang interact with your pirates in a proper way because I am not versed in any of Redux nation's histories

I have brain scurvy

If you could do it for me that would be swell.

Another matter is that King L basically stated his position as "You better stop what you're doing or else. You can't win. Surrender now. Zoria, fuck yeah!"

Doesn't really signal any will to negotiate

I am busies Big Z but I'll try to do something about it, mangs.

Steve wrote:I agree to a point, but if we take your POV it just turns King Leighton into not just a wildly-biased figure arguing an extreme position as basis, but we make him so deluded as to think he can put up a completely untrue map of local claims and "actual positions" to the Byzantine Emperor as well as the Caliph of Syria and get away with it.

If it were at that table I wouldn't so much expect to get away with the claims made as that they would be a good position from which to begin the grand old diplomatic game of bargaining, but I'll readily admit that I may be giving King Leighton too much credit here.

PeZook wrote:Another matter is that King L basically stated his position as "You better stop what you're doing or else. You can't win. Surrender now. Zoria, fuck yeah!"

I didn't exactly read it like that, but it's a fair enough point. I'm looking forward to seeing how Mr Heraclius and Mr Saladin respond .

SiegeTank wrote: I didn't exactly read it like that, but it's a fair enough point. I'm looking forward to seeing how Mr Heraclius and Mr Saladin respond .

Well, he might just be playing hardball. It remains to be seen

I'm still thinking of how to respond, but if I recall correctly, the agreement was that there will be no threats. And yet...

Does Zor really want to provoke a nuclear power?

What's so important about goddamn Velaria anyway?

The only difference between what Zor's doing and what you're doing is that what Zor's doing through bluntheaded colonialism, you're doing through supporting a bunch of Mohammedians to make a Byzantine-allied state in the goddamn V-continent.

I should totally support Ford Prefect's Country and turn it into an utter madhouse!

Besides, how can you expect to retain a leash on the Mohammedian jihadists anyway? Sure, you can send military advisors, but by the sheer numbers pouring into Velaria, there'll probably be scores of 'em who'll totally be unsupervised and doing their own goddamn war in the middle of the Velarian jungle where they can butcher to their heart's content and things'll Get Bad.

With this kind of undertaking in organized chaos, it'd be a miracle for things not to spiral out of control - as they do in real-life.

But then, God's with the Byzantines and Allah is with the Mohammedians. So, yeah...

We can't let this play totally into Byzantine hands! BATMAN DO SOMETHING!

Shroom Man 777 wrote:What's so important about goddamn Velaria anyway?

The only difference between what Zor's doing and what you're doing is that what Zor's doing through bluntheaded colonialism, you're doing through supporting a bunch of Mohammedians to make a Byzantine-allied state in the goddamn V-continent.

I should totally support Ford Prefect's Country and turn it into an utter madhouse!

So Shroom, you support Zor's exploitation of the locals?

Besides, how can you expect to retain a leash on the Mohammedian jihadists anyway? Sure, you can send military advisors, but by the sheer numbers pouring into Velaria, there'll probably be scores of 'em who'll totally be unsupervised and doing their own goddamn war in the middle of the Velarian jungle where they can butcher to their heart's content and things'll Get Bad.

With this kind of undertaking in organized chaos, it'd be a miracle for things not to spiral out of control - as they do in real-life.

But then, God's with the Byzantines and Allah is with the Mohammedians. So, yeah...

We can't let this play totally into Byzantine hands! BATMAN DO SOMETHING!

Erm. The Caliph sayeth, they will all listen. The Caliph of the Islamic world commands the title of "Defender of the Faith"?

So is Zablorg controlling an island nation he calls Ford Prefect's Country or is he claiming al-Ghazzara, as one post hinted? I'm in favor of the former because al-Ghazzara has already done things in-game at the hands of other PCs, and it would probably disrupt what Zab has in mind to accomodate that backhistory.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Does Zor really want to provoke a nuclear power?

Let's get serious here: you're not going to nuke anyone over Velaria. You don't even have an official stake in the matter, apart from the Caliph being your puppet...

True.

However, Zoria is also apparently breaking a pledge to refrain from threats at the peace talks.

SiegeTank wrote:Let's get serious here: you're not going to nuke anyone over Velaria. You don't even have an official stake in the matter, apart from the Caliph being your puppet...

Of course not. But obviously a threat like this can't go unchallenged. At best this might lead to showing the Zorians who's the real boss here. No country would tolerate its authority getting challenged. You guys fratted for example when Czech rejoined Tian Xia. This is no different. What he did was an egg in the face of the FTO that declared that they would not tolerate any foreign interference, and then Stas strode right in with a navy.

In fact, what Zor did is tantamount to insulting me as the host for the talks. I stated the preconditions, and then instead of negotiating, I get an ultimatum.

For the record, I'd like to state that I think Zor's really a poor group-player. Even poorer than little old deranged me.

Mang, and to think this whole game is HIS invention.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:So Shroom, you support Zor's exploitation of the locals?

Nah, I don't like ZOR WINS FLAWLESS VICTORY. But I'd like it if the resolution to this whole thing reflects real-life, where resolutions are almost never ever clean. If anything, this whole Velarian Holy War thing should probably just be the first in a whole line of Velarian issues that'd resemble a Terra Libertia Mk. 2.

Complete with Goddamn Libertopians!

It'd be better if things don't go entirely your way. You already got Annexed Arabia as puppet-NPCs anyway. Besides, a more complicated Velabertaria would make for interesting future storylines! Come on, don't tell me that the whole Goddamn Libertopians thing in SDN Game 1 wasn't the awesomest!

Erm. The Caliph sayeth, they will all listen. The Caliph of the Islamic world commands the title of "Defender of the Faith"?

Maybe in the Middle Ages, some shmuck like Mohammad Martin al-Luthor could've posted some piece of paper leading to some whacky dogmatic schism, leading to the formation of all sorts of sects all over the world that don't adhere to the Muslim Pope.

I doubt they'd be a homogeneous bunch, anyway.

And even if they are, Terra Velaria wouldn't be 100% Muslim. I'm sure a whole crapload of them would represent all sorts of faiths, Hinduists, Confucianists, etc. Maybe with the formation of this 'Velarian Caliphate', it could polarize these other peoples and make them want to make their own nation based on religious and/or ethnic lines. Causing turmoil!

Siege wrote:Let's get serious here: you're not going to nuke anyone over Velaria. You don't even have an official stake in the matter, apart from the Caliph being your puppet...

Indeed. Fingolfin wants to (and not unjustly so) dick over Zor, who's dicking over the Velarians. But yeah, even Steve was gunning for Zor after all those inflated Norse-Shinto convert numbers Zor loves going on about.

I rationalize that by having the Zorians 'converting' all sorts of criminal shitpieces and gangbangers. Nowadays, those Zorian census takers probably check the "Believes in Norse-Shintoism" box for every VALKYR-popping junkie glibbering on about winged angels and the world on fire.


Does Roman Catholicism exist in SDN World? Maybe Ryan can get into this whole religious madness thing by having the Pope and the Vatican based in his country... Mysteroo or something.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Nah, I don't like ZOR WINS FLAWLESS VICTORY. But I'd like it if the resolution to this whole thing reflects real-life, where resolutions are almost never ever clean. If anything, this whole Velarian Holy War thing should probably just be the first in a whole line of Velarian issues that'd resemble a Terra Libertia Mk. 2.

Complete with Goddamn Libertopians!

It'd be better if things don't go entirely your way. You already got Annexed Arabia as puppet-NPCs anyway. Besides, a more complicated Velabertaria would make for interesting future storylines! Come on, don't tell me that the whole Goddamn Libertopians thing in SDN Game 1 wasn't the awesomest!

I don't plan to put too much control on that corner of Valeria. It will be governed by the locals as far as I am concerned.

Maybe in the Middle Ages, some shmuck like Mohammad Martin al-Luthor could've posted some piece of paper leading to some whacky dogmatic schism, leading to the formation of all sorts of sects all over the world that don't adhere to the Muslim Pope.

I doubt they'd be a homogeneous bunch, anyway.

Let's not make this situation any more worse and complicated because that would suggest rewriting all the history I have written for the two caliphates thus far? There is a big difference here because unlike in real life where the Sultan of Constantinople was stripped of his titles and there was no one strong enough to take up the title of Caliph in no small part because of the Brits, in this game, there is someone with enough power to make that claim for that title.

And even if they are, Terra Velaria wouldn't be 100% Muslim. I'm sure a whole crapload of them would represent all sorts of faiths, Hinduists, Confucianists, etc. Maybe with the formation of this 'Velarian Caliphate', it could polarize these other peoples and make them want to make their own nation based on religious and/or ethnic lines. Causing turmoil!

There is a possibility.

Indeed. Fingolfin wants to (and not unjustly so) dick over Zor, who's dicking over the Velarians. But yeah, even Steve was gunning for Zor after all those inflated Norse-Shinto convert numbers Zor loves going on about.

Dude, you do know what "action reaction" means? Maybe you don't know how important the legitimacy of a state is, but you don't go letting someone insult your country just like that. Maybe it's for the Shroomanians to get their country insulted left right center and they have no balls to defend their country's honour, but not everyone is going to let it slide.

I rationalize that by having the Zorians 'converting' all sorts of criminal shitpieces and gangbangers. Nowadays, those Zorian census takers probably check the "Believes in Norse-Shintoism" box for every VALKYR-popping junkie glibbering on about winged angels and the world on fire.

Whatever... that means.

Does Roman Catholicism exist in SDN World? Maybe Ryan can get into this whole religious madness thing by having the Pope and the Vatican based in his country... Mysteroo or something.

Yes it does. But Lonestar will have a say for that. He houses the Latin Patriarch.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:You guys fratted for example when Czech rejoined Tian Xia. This is no different. What he did was an egg in the face of the FTO that declared that they would not tolerate any foreign interference, and then Stas strode right in with a navy.

You know, I hadn't really looked at it that way before, but you're right. And if I were the Emperor of Byzantium, right now I'd be seriously pissed off at this foreign monarch who strides into my palace making ultimatums when that's the one thing that all attending parties explicitly agreed not to do in advance.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Let's not make this situation any more worse and complicated because that would suggest rewriting all the history I have written for the two caliphates thus far?

Wait, two caliphates? Okay. Consider my delusional ravings retracted.

There is a possibility.

We can pick scores of religions for these other groups! Not Orthodox Christian, though, since we (you) did that last time too.

Hrm... we could use some good-old fashioned Greco-Roman Pagans! The Temple of Athena! Wait! NO! That's also Byzantine! Damn, what else is left? Hrm... yeah... Coyote's Egyptian thing! Ra! Seth! Osiris! APOPHIS! ANUBIS! And Ba'al! Well, he's not Egyptian, but a Goa'uld is a Goa'uld. *shrugs*

Indeed. Fingolfin wants to (and not unjustly so) dick over Zor, who's dicking over the Velarians. But yeah, even Steve was gunning for Zor after all those inflated Norse-Shinto convert numbers Zor loves going on about.

Dude, you do know what "action reaction" means? Maybe you don't know how important the legitimacy of a state is, but you don't go letting someone insult your country just like that. Maybe it's for the Shroomanians to get their country insulted left right center and they have no balls to defend their country's honour, but not everyone is going to let it slide.

I did say "not unjustly so" - which means that I'm cool with you dicking over Zor since, yeah, it's therapeutic for him.

Besides, Shroomanians have better things to do than get worked up over whatever perceived slight there is. We're too busy having fun with the Canissians and the PeZookians and San Doradoans and even the Crimsons, while selling crematoriums waste incinerators to the Shadows. The Shadies also buy propaganda zeppelins from us!

And we're totally not *other* dudes who take themselves too seriously. Heck, so far, I think Shroomania's got excellent relations with almost every country on Earth. Got garbage-filled stratellite TVs with Baerne, sold aircraft carriers to the Vinish, trade shroomericomi with mangas and animus from the Langleys, homosexual hookers with the Canissians, strats and stuff from the Tonkins, hmm. Hell, I think our embassy in former Shepistan's still there! We're good with everyone except those Shinra(n) anti-Shroomites. (But I think they secretly love us)

But yeah, Fingolfin, Zor does lack a sense of tact, even by Shroomanian standards. At least we Shroomanians live by a general rule of 'playing nice with others'. Even by Byzantine standards, Zor's really... standoffish. Bad form for an island nation in the middle of the ocean trying to lengthen its reach into other lands. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

I mean, crap, if he's gotta do what he's doing, he could do it with style and stab some dignitary with a poisoned blade in a FUN conference.

(Fuck, it's totally Shep's fault that the FUN never took off. He ruined it by making murder at our first FUN Forum! That dick! I wonder whatever happened to that one-eyed Shepistani sheepfucking secret agent, anyway!)

Whatever... that means.

Max Payne, man. Shitpieces take this blue liquid drug that's some form of experimental nastiness, and they go crazy. As in, full hallucinations with people seeing horrific wraith-like winged creatures, and seeing the world on fire! With Norse symbolism! I think Zor could use that kind of stuff.

Yes it does. But Lonestar will have a say for that. He houses the Latin Patriarch.

Oh yeah! I remember that! Yeah, Loinstar even made a big movie about three thousand Crusaders butchering three billion subhuman Shepersian uruk-hai. The Shroomanians loved it.

Hrm... I do house the Shroomangelican Christian branch. But for the last couple centuries, it's been a widely known fact that the Shroomangelican Church is full of perverts and money-laundering dickheads.

Fuck. I think that unlike the Orthodox Byzantines, Dominion Catholics, and even the Caliphate Muslims, the Shroomangelicans would be losing believers every year.

Oh well. There's still plenty of fish in the sea, just gotta wait for the algae bloom that comes with the Pink Tide to kill em all and render them inedible...



(I haven't slept for more than twenty hours OK)

Siege wrote:You know, I hadn't really looked at it that way before, but you're right. And if I were the Emperor of Byzantium, right now I'd be seriously pissed off at this foreign monarch who strides into my palace making ultimatums when that's the one thing that all attending parties explicitly agreed not to do in advance.

Mmm... Heraclius should totally punch Zor in the face.

Fuck it, you're wrong Fingolfin. If Zor came into Shroomania with an attitude that's *really* bad, then he might end up getting slapped in the face and getting challenged into a duel! With swords!

Lord Moonbeam: "A duel with use of a sword!"

King Leighton: "Yeah - wait, use of a what?!"



I think Zoria should be divorced from the Shroomanian Commonwealth, anyway. Bunch of convict colonial revolutionary upstards! Frickin' Zed Kelly!

IIRC Zor's backhistory claims he broke away from you in a glorious war of independence.

And....

THE CAKE IS A LIE.

Actually, back in Game 1 (and I think I also did this in Game 2), Prime Minister Shroom is fond of sending fattening delicacies to world leaders he's fond of. King Arik and his hostaged concubine got truckloads of chocolates after an ordeal involving eco-terrorists and an abandoned island full of fucking dinosaurs, and JOHN SHROOMBO.

Ah, Zor. You go, Fingolfin!

Shroom, if you are stretching for religions to splash across Valaria, the Vineyards have our own group of dieties that may or may not be are stolen directly from The Elder Scrolls.

edit: stupid 'r's, always messing up my typing.