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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 04:02am
by Adam Reynolds
Patroklos wrote: The kid who wanted to join their military academy and serve them loyally? That kid? Is pretty clear he is just hating on the powers that be, but had no problem as long as he could be a part of the powers that be.
As I pointed out, it is likely that he intended to defect and join the Rebellion, exactly what Biggs was always stated to have done. Going through the Imperial academy was simply a means to get off Tatooine and gain useful skills that could be turned against the Empire. Of course, as it turned out, Luke didn't need any additional skills.

There is no indication that he ever seriously intended to serve the Empire as a loyal follower. A better analog is someone going to law school and becoming an environmental lawyer.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 04:19am
by The Romulan Republic
Knife wrote:That's your opinion, mine differs. Anything of the old EU that was 'smart', 'cool', or 'novel' has since been over used and over done to such an extent that it's as shitty as the other parts of the old EU.
Why does that not apply to things that were introduced in the films that have been used just as much, if not more so? Like Star Destroyers, Stormtroopers, Jedi, Sith, the Force, etc...?

No reason at all that I see, other than prejudice.
If they have a blue dude with red eyes in the back ground scene in a Star Destroyer, I don't care, but any Grand Admiral Thrawn action will get a negative response from me.
I prefer subtle references, in general, to heavy-handed or overly extensive ones.
They have a golden opportunity here to start something new, not give fanboys the fan film they've been dreaming of.
Oh, I'm all for something new. But I'm not for rejecting sensible ideas because they happened to have been in the EU.
Meh, that Luke would have kids is not obvious. He was an orphaned kid of a dead war hero brought up by his 'uncle' only to find out the galaxies most feared man who kills his friends and mentors is actual not only a monster but dear old dad. Sure he gets dad to pull back a bit at the end and not be a totally evil ass until death, but does have this heavy legacy of strong and powerful, yet possibly evil magic that screwed the galaxy over and can be passed down to children theme going for him. Same for Leia to be honest. Hell for all we know, Han and Leia got it on after ROTJ, then broke up when Leia refused to carry on the legacy and decided not to have kids.
Well, their's nothing saying Luke, Leia, or Han has to have had a child. But its plausible that any of them could have (reproducing is a very common human goal, after all), with or without the EU.
It would work as well as further sacrifice for Luke to live the monks life, much like his masters before him.
This, at least, I profoundly and emphatically disagree with, to the point that I would consider this proof of a deep failure on your part to understand the evolution of the Jedi in the films.

The Jedi start out as an emotionally stifled order, rejecting attachments, and it worked badly for them.

However, during Revenge of the Sith, we see a change beginning to occur. A particularly subtle but telling line is Yoda telling the Wookies that he will miss them when he leaves. I like to take that as a tacit admission by Yoda that he was wrong, that even he was subject to emotional attachment, and that that wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Then their's Kenobi's emotional rant to a crippled Vader on Mustafar, and Yoda and Kenobi's decision to let Luke and Leia be raised by families (though they didn't have a lot of options then).

It comes full circle during Return of the Jedi, when Luke's love for his father renders him unwilling to kill Vader, and he ultimately redeems Vader. And Vader's love for Luke, for his child, is what leads him to defeat Palpatine, to do what all the Jedi Order and their armies could not.

The Jedi Order grew and changed, embracing emotion, and Luke was the ultimate embodiment of that change. So to have Luke go off to live a lonely, loveless life like the old Jedi would be more than a blunder. It would be a betrayal.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 04:31am
by The Romulan Republic
Well, to be fair, Luke could make such a choice under certain circumstances, I suppose. But it would have to have a good explanation and be portrayed as a failure on his part to satisfy me. I do not wish to see the new films endorse the "no attachments, no love" bollocks. That would be stupid backtracking.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 05:49am
by Adam Reynolds
The Romulan Republic wrote:Well, to be fair, Luke could make such a choice under certain circumstances, I suppose. But it would have to have a good explanation and be portrayed as a failure on his part to satisfy me. I do not wish to see the new films endorse the "no attachments, no love" bollocks. That would be stupid backtracking.
I agree that his order of Jedi should avoid the same flaws as the old, though I felt like Luke was one who recognized that he would walk a path outside of that his friends would take(as the ending of ROTJ showed). That doesn't really include having a family of his own. This isn't to say he is like the monks of Old Republic Jedi, as he has the close bonds with Leia and Han that would be significant in making him a part of society, but that he doesn't seem like he would have any romantic attachments.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 06:27am
by Anacronian
You know it could be that Luke simply doesn't want to have a family - It might not have anything to do with the force or the Jedi, Lots of people selects to live on their own.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 07:02am
by The Romulan Republic
True enough, though considering how big a deal Luke's love for his family is, and how pivotal a role it plays in his life, I don't see him walking away from them altogether unless something truly devastating happened. Although it is true that, if you leave the EU out of it, Luke never really had a romantic relationship or expressed any romantic interest in any one beyond some vague, creepy as of Return of the Jedi, stuff towards Leia.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 08:07am
by Anacronian
The Romulan Republic wrote:True enough, though considering how big a deal Luke's love for his family is, and how pivotal a role it plays in his life, I don't see him walking away from them altogether unless something truly devastating happened. Although it is true that, if you leave the EU out of it, Luke never really had a romantic relationship or expressed any romantic interest in any one beyond some vague, creepy as of Return of the Jedi, stuff towards Leia.
Perhaps it's because I have read very little of the EU I don't think it's all the weird if Luke just goes off to be on his own - after all in the Star Wars movies we see very little of families other than the Skywalker bunch.

In any case, it seems to be one of those things we just gotta have to wait and see considering how tight-lipped Disney/Lucasfilms have been about Luke's role in The Force Awakens.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 05:51pm
by Adam Reynolds
Anacronian wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:True enough, though considering how big a deal Luke's love for his family is, and how pivotal a role it plays in his life, I don't see him walking away from them altogether unless something truly devastating happened. Although it is true that, if you leave the EU out of it, Luke never really had a romantic relationship or expressed any romantic interest in any one beyond some vague, creepy as of Return of the Jedi, stuff towards Leia.
Perhaps it's because I have read very little of the EU I don't think it's all the weird if Luke just goes off to be on his own - after all in the Star Wars movies we see very little of families other than the Skywalker bunch.

In any case, it seems to be one of those things we just gotta have to wait and see considering how tight-lipped Disney/Lucasfilms have been about Luke's role in The Force Awakens.
From what I have seen: Spoiler
Luke apparently has something of a fisher king vibe in the new movie. Given that a major plot point is about the heroes looking for him, with Rey finding him in the last scene, it appears that he will be on his own, at least for the first movie. He apparently began starting a Jedi Order that fell apart for some reason.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 09:22pm
by Rogue 9
Galvatron wrote:Furthemore, the Imperial fleet at the Battle of Endor was ordered by the Emperor to merely prevent the Alliance fleet from escaping. We have no reason to assume that Piett suddenly decided that the tide of the battle was turning and disobeyed the Emperor before his own ship was destroyed. The surviving Imperial fleet at Endor may have actually retreated or surrendered without ever really putting up a decent fight.
This in fact happened in the new timeline as well as the old.
Spoiler
In "The Levers of Power," a short story in The Rise of the Empire anthology, the second ranking admiral at Endor shot her ISB officer before giving the order to retreat, before the Death Star exploded but after the station's overbridge reported loss of contact with the Emperor in the throne room, realizing what was about to happen. At least there was no nonsense about battle meditation or the Emperor personally mentally influencing every Imperial officer present in the system.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 09:35pm
by Rogue 9
Ghetto edit: Spoiler
I should add that her stated reason to her bridge crew for doing this was so that they could get a jump on containing the situation and gathering Imperial resources before the Rebels could, and the loyalty officer would have impeded her from doing this, if not shot her on the spot for ordering retreat.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 09:37pm
by The Romulan Republic
Anacronian wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:True enough, though considering how big a deal Luke's love for his family is, and how pivotal a role it plays in his life, I don't see him walking away from them altogether unless something truly devastating happened. Although it is true that, if you leave the EU out of it, Luke never really had a romantic relationship or expressed any romantic interest in any one beyond some vague, creepy as of Return of the Jedi, stuff towards Leia.
Perhaps it's because I have read very little of the EU I don't think it's all the weird if Luke just goes off to be on his own - after all in the Star Wars movies we see very little of families other than the Skywalker bunch.

In any case, it seems to be one of those things we just gotta have to wait and see considering how tight-lipped Disney/Lucasfilms have been about Luke's role in The Force Awakens.
Its not about the EU, or at least its not just about that.

Its that Luke's family and his feelings for them are at the core of both his backstory and his character development. This is a huge piece of what drives who is. And Luke therefore personifies the culmination of the Jedi Order's evolution. And that's supported by the films alone.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-25 10:47pm
by Adam Reynolds
Rogue 9 wrote:This in fact happened in the new timeline as well as the old.
The idea about battle meditation was mostly supposition from the novelization, not the EU. The Emperor's death was described in the novelization to have ripple effects through the Imperial military. His presence in the Dark Side was strong enough that when he died, it left a general sense of fear within the Imperial military. This was described mostly with reference to the second Death Star itself.

This is also somewhat true in the film in that we see that same general sense onboard the Death Star. That doesn't mean that it also had to apply to rest of the Imperial fleet. And given what your source states, it doesn't.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-27 08:11am
by Borgholio
I'm sorry to have to do this to you all.


Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-27 11:56am
by Prometheus Unbound
Borgholio wrote:I'm sorry to have to do this to you all.

if i cuold neg rep :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-27 01:55pm
by Boeing 757
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Boeing 757 wrote:Frankly, it seems rather odd if not outright unbelievable that an entire galaxy-spanning empire could totally disintegrate so quickly in thirty years or however many this film takes place, even if one does take into account that the head of state that everything hinged upon was slayed. Let's face it, despite the Empire not being in existence for too long, its infrastructure was already strongly rooted thanks to the Galactic Republic which had preceded it. Every large state in the history of Earth which fell apart on Earth existed in some smaller form of itself after its breakup, aside from cases where an outside aggressor fully eradicated it. It should be more presentable that the First Order is some kind of splinter group of the old Empire...indeed, it would be cool if we got to see not only a New Republic but also other Imperial splinter groups in this new trilogy.
Oh for God's sake.

The Empire was only around for a couple of decades when the Emperor died. Why the fuck would it take more than 30 years to collapse?

Sure, its big, but hyperdrive means that bad news, and hostile fleets, travel fast.
Well of course it collapsed from what it once was prior to Palpatine, but it's possible that parts of it could have survived, be they in whatever form you can fathom. I reckon that it fractured into many pieces as soon as Palpatine became deceased, but who is to say that some of the regional governors hadn't assumed control of their sectors and converted them into their own little 'fiefdoms, kingdoms, empires and so on that happened to isolate themselves from the mainstream of galactic affairs? There are many possible scenarios that could play out, and yeah it is a huge galaxy, and despite how fast information spreads galaxy-wide, we don't know enough in the new canon right now about what happened after Endor to claim that the Rebel Alliance definitively mopped up every leftover scraps of the old Empire, or that they even govern over large portions of the galaxy as in Legends canon. I've read that the First Order consists of old Imperial supporters, so there could be other strongholds left over and shit along those lines.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-27 03:06pm
by ray245
This video did a much better job at articulating some of my issues with JJ.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tx5z1kAFwQ[/youtube]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-27 05:08pm
by Galvatron
Rogue 9 wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Furthemore, the Imperial fleet at the Battle of Endor was ordered by the Emperor to merely prevent the Alliance fleet from escaping. We have no reason to assume that Piett suddenly decided that the tide of the battle was turning and disobeyed the Emperor before his own ship was destroyed. The surviving Imperial fleet at Endor may have actually retreated or surrendered without ever really putting up a decent fight.
This in fact happened in the new timeline as well as the old.
Spoiler
In "The Levers of Power," a short story in The Rise of the Empire anthology, the second ranking admiral at Endor shot her ISB officer before giving the order to retreat, before the Death Star exploded but after the station's overbridge reported loss of contact with the Emperor in the throne room, realizing what was about to happen. At least there was no nonsense about battle meditation or the Emperor personally mentally influencing every Imperial officer present in the system.
I'm gradually making my way through the new EU novels. I'm also reading the new comics as I get them. The Darth Vader and main series are my favorites so far. They just started a Chewbacca miniseries as well.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-27 09:56pm
by SilverDragonRed
ray245 wrote:This video did a much better job at articulating some of my issues with JJ.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tx5z1kAFwQ[/youtube]
Thanks for uploading that. From what that essay said, it sounds like JJ Abrams' style is similar to Michael Bay except without the excessive complexity in each shot and with a basic understanding of film language (and cinematography).

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-28 12:50am
by Adam Reynolds
SilverDragonRed wrote:Thanks for uploading that. From what that essay said, it sounds like JJ Abrams' style is similar to Michael Bay except without the excessive complexity in each shot and with a basic understanding of film language (and cinematography).
I suspect that despite the fact that he isn't very good at storytelling, Michael Bay actually puts far more planning into his shots. The main criticism I saw here was that Abrams often doesn't storyboard properly. I wonder if that was still true with the new Star Wars or if because of the stakes(and his love of the franchise) he put more work into it. Though from what I have heard about the production, he started shooting without a completed script and only finished it because Harrison Ford was injured.

Part of his problem is that he started in television in which storyboarding is often not done due to time constraints. He kept this bad habit when he transitioned to film. Though that might have been part of what motivated Disney and Kennedy to choose him, they knew he could deliver on a time crunch.

By the way, Ray, delete the s from https next time.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-28 11:26am
by SilverDragonRed
Of course Bay puts more planning into his shots. How else would someone go about trying to cram as many different types of movement into each frame? The main thing I was trying to get was that neither director seems to understand or want clarity.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-28 12:22pm
by Prometheus Unbound
I think JJ understands it, somewhat. Just gets carried away is all.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-28 12:33pm
by Borgholio
The main differences in their shooting style that I've noticed is that Bay likes fiery explosions and JJ likes lens flares.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-28 12:51pm
by Anacronian
Should be noted that J.J has started using storyboards - he used them in Star trek into darkness and I would be very surprised if he didn't use them for Star Wars the force awakens.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-28 01:14pm
by SilverDragonRed
He did? JJ talked about 'Into Darkness' like any other film he did in the commentary, and even apologized for a few of the shots not being good.

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Posted: 2015-10-28 01:43pm
by Prometheus Unbound
SilverDragonRed wrote:He did? JJ talked about 'Into Darkness' like any other film he did in the commentary, and even apologized for a few of the shots not being good.
Note the caption. It was showing clips of ITD but actually said "Star Trek 2009 Commentary" in the corner :-)


Could it be someone on youtube has an agenda and might be editing stuff to fit their narrative? :D