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Thanas, the timing is rather annoying. By back-dating it, you change the dynamics.

For example, consider the Thanasian offers in the Kapi'olani replacement program outright rejected.

Edit: I'd like to second Simon's request for a mod ruling.

TimothyC wrote:For example, consider the Thanasian offers in the Kapi'olani replacement program outright rejected.

As if you were ever going to purchase from us anyways...I think we all know what the winning design will be.

And why do people keep calling Rheinland Thanasia?

Now, if we were to change this to May, would that be ok with you two? (But don't complain if my fleet magically materializes in port in a few days because that is the only way it will work for the Luftbrücke celebrations).

I'm pretty sure we said repeatedly that we were working on the Treaty back when we were discussing moving forwards to March, Thanas and I both said we're working on a lengthy post together that woudl include a mutual-defence pact and that we'd back-date it if necessary.

Also, that submarine was supposed to be one of the boats attached to my carrier group, as laid out in my OrBat, so it wasn't just there on a jolly.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:I'm pretty sure we said repeatedly that we were working on the Treaty back when we were discussing moving forwards to March.

I knew you were working on a treaty, but not what it was going to contain.

Once March had been going on for a week or so, I think it would have been fair for us to expect that you tell us "okay, we're not actually going to be able to finish polishing this huge treaty post, so here is the gist of the actual treaty."

That's the issue that bothers me.

I mean, think about the precedent this sets. Imagine Thanas saying "oh, yeah, you know those mumbling posts I made about rising tensions with Granadia? Well, turns out I've been quietly been talking with Force Lord on the side for the past few months, and it turns out Rheinland invaded Grenadia three months ago and I only just got around to writing the post describing my soldiers leisurely strolling into their capital. Guess none of you did anything about it back then when you had the chance, so now my soldiers are firmly entrenched and it'd take a world war to throw us out!"

Obviously that would be totally unacceptable- the very definition of godmoding.

But the essential logic of the event is pretty much the same- having a private discussion with a player about an event of potentially world-affecting consequences, and quietly deciding between the two of you to backdate the event such that nobody else can respond to it when it happened without retconning any events they may have done after that time.

Thanas and I both said we're working on a lengthy post together that woudl include a mutual-defence pact and that we'd back-date it if necessary.

You know, I can't find any actual indication of the words 'mutual defense.' I may be overlooking them in the search function, but I can't find them in the commentary thread either.

Also, that submarine was supposed to be one of the boats attached to my carrier group, as laid out in my OrBat, so it wasn't just there on a jolly.

1) The Umerians don't know that for sure.

2) The position and conduct of the submarine strongly suggested that it was operating independently and on the prowl, or whatever the word would be for a 'prowling' creature that isn't planning to kill anything. Even if it was part of the order of battle of a task force passing through the area for legitimate reasons, it was acting like it was on its own assignment to take a few days off in order to randomly sneak up on a Umerian diesel sub that had been floating along minding its own business and say "BOO!" Which is a fairly cavalier attitude to take toward a foreign navy.

Now, again, I'm not saying the Umerians harbor a grudge that will result in them actually doing anything that inconveniences Orion significantly. But they do occasionally think "what if, for some reason we cannot now foresee, we end up declaring war on Orion?" It gives them something to think about other than what to do if they're randomly attacked by Shinrans with zweihanders or something.

It is my personal opinion that unreal time / postdating should only be used for things like story chains with little overall impact. If the conclusion of the chain can be expected to have a serious impact on the world, then the outcome should be fully disclosed pending the conclusion of the chain. I don't understand why this particular story has to be postdated. I don't consider it a grievous wrongdoing but I do see where Simon is coming from. So for future reference:

The moderatorship will not tolerate ex post facto declarations of allegiance in the vein of 'we were allied all along!' Once a significant event (like a casus belli) has taken place players are not allowed to retroactively alter previously established facts related to it (like alliances). Unless you have a seriously good reason for it, maybe, but I can't imagine what that reason would be.

If for some unfathomable reason you find yourself desiring a secret alliance, you are expected to inform the moderatorship of this, and we may well tell you to not be a dick and post about how your people sign their pact in super secret.

And a final word of advice: if you write a lengthy post hinting at many things, either add a clear summary at the end or be ready for people to not be cognizant of all the little knowledge bombs you dropped. Oblique references would not meet my standards of full disclosure. I expect people to be clear about things that need to be clear. I don't have time to go over every post with a fine-toothed comb like Sherlock trying to unravel one of Moriarty's fiendish hidden plans.

Siege wrote:It is my personal opinion that unreal time / postdating should only be used for things like story chains with little overall impact. If the conclusion of the chain can be expected to have a serious impact on the world, then the outcome should be fully disclosed pending the conclusion of the chain. I don't understand why this particular story has to be postdated. I don't consider it a grievous wrongdoing but I do see where Simon is coming from. So for future reference:..

In this case, I don't think there was any grievous wrongdoing because there were no direct consequences. While a nation like Cascadia might reasonably have wanted to react to the declaration of alliance in real time, no one's going to suffer if that reaction is delayed for two in-game months.

What there was, is, well... unintended poor sportsmanship?

Thanas wrote:I think we all know what the winning design will be.

Probably. Don't worry, the Airbus orders that were existing prior to game start will still go through.

The Thanasia thing is just a brain slip.

Siege wrote:And a final word of advice: if you write a lengthy post hinting at many things, either add a clear summary at the end or be ready for people to not be cognizant of all the little knowledge bombs you dropped. Oblique references would not meet my standards of full disclosure. I expect people to be clear about things that need to be clear. I don't have time to go over every post with a fine-toothed comb like Sherlock trying to unravel one of Moriarty's fiendish hidden plans.

I have always added a summary at the end of my posts. Heck, in the big foreign affairs declaration I made I even bolded the names of the country so that people could go back and look at the content of the posts. I really wish everyone would do that at the end of their own posts.

Now as to this recent war, why would Kalgaria escalate here? Am I missing something? And is this a fullout war or just a border skirmish like India/Pakistan.

I'm going to retcon the New Britonia elections, I think, the Rhineland-Orion alliance would have likely influenced them somewhat.

I could do without the pictures of burnt human bodies, personally.

Keep in mind I'm moving this weekend, so don't expect to see me too much.

Siege wrote:I could do without the pictures of burnt human bodies, personally.

Kind of the cultural amnesia that Thanas is satirising?

Siege wrote:I could do without the pictures of burnt human bodies, personally.

I have spoilerized them.

madd0ct0r wrote:Kind of the cultural amnesia that Thanas is satirising?

I'm well aware of the horrors of war, and I have enough shitty imagery in my head already so I don't particularly feel like adding more to it when I'm playing a flipping game, thank you very much.

Just so people know the following treaty is agreed on with Granadia but I haven't gotten time to announce it in storymode yet. It is not necessary to backdate it, just know that it was signed somewhere in May.

Rheinland signs a treaty with Granadia with the following terms:

Rheinland receives:
1. first priority of debt repayment for current and future debts owed to Rheinland
2. Rhenish companies are allowed to economic assets, including aspects of state-run corporations in Granadia
3. A Gastarbeiter, immigration and scholarship program similar to the one with Champa but probably on a lower scale overall (a few hundred thousands per year)
Granadia receives:
1. Rheinland will guarantee the next bond issue to get them through the year
2. inspection rights to make sure emigrates are treated fairly
3. Cash payment for every worker sent to Rheinland

The intentions are to prevent a collapse of the Granadian state while also helping Rheinland with the labour shortage.

*************************
I shall also add that despite Siege's request I am pretty much still the only one who puts a results summary at the bottom of a post.
As a general note I would also like if people could add dates to every storypost - for example, did the UOCSR - Kalgaria conflict start in April or May? (It is may now, right?)

1) i think he was referring to very long story posts.

2) Of the three posts I made tonight, the story post with actual decision-making had a summary. The newspaper blurbs and the Heartwarming Family epilogue didn't need them.

Steve wrote:1) i think he was referring to very long story posts.

Well, I'd like to have it as a general request. I always do so.
At least the dates should always be included in the posts.

2) Of the three posts I made tonight, the story post with actual decision-making had a summary. The newspaper blurbs and the Heartwarming Family epilogue didn't need them.

Yeah and you always include dates too (afaik), so thanks for that.

Thanas wrote:Just so people know the following treaty is agreed on with Granadia but I haven't gotten time to announce it in storymode yet. It is not necessary to backdate it, just know that it was signed somewhere in May.

Rheinland signs a treaty with Granadia with the following terms:

Rheinland receives:
1. first priority of debt repayment for current and future debts owed to Rheinland
2. Rhenish companies are allowed to economic assets, including aspects of state-run corporations in Granadia
3. A Gastarbeiter, immigration and scholarship program similar to the one with Champa but probably on a lower scale overall (a few hundred thousands per year)
Granadia receives:
1. Rheinland will guarantee the next bond issue to get them through the year
2. inspection rights to make sure emigrates are treated fairly
3. Cash payment for every worker sent to Rheinland

The intentions are to prevent a collapse of the Granadian state while also helping Rheinland with the labour shortage.

Can I make a brief post where Granadian newspapers disclose that there have been negotiations with Rheinland, but without revealing the details? To pave the way, so to speak.

Oh, of course. If you want to, you can also write a post with the full acceptance of the offer and all the details, I don't mind.

Ah, I was wondering what happened to my black ops team.

Also, dates, please!

I can't date something that simultaneously refers undated and backdated events. And frankly I'd rather invest my energy in writing more actual stuff than figuring out a chronology anyway, particularly when it's a self-contained character piece that doesn't need a frame for external reference.

It is reasonable to suppose that in this piece, the Orion commando team has been under interrogation for, oh, a couple of weeks? Long enough that the team is still delivering disinformation- but under a rather patient and non-tortuous interrogation regime.

So we might reasonably date it to roughly a couple of weeks after they were captured. Mid-to-late March. Which is also fully in keeping with the idea that the UOCSR-Kagarian War blew up in, oh, April game time.

On the other hand, Siege also references other undated and backdated events, such as the alliance declared in February, so it really would be better to just say GODDAMNED SURREAL TIME and not sweat it. I'm just OCD like that.

I'm getting mildly annoyed by all these diplomatic back dealing especially in the case of ForceLord because he hardly posts.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I'm getting mildly annoyed by all these diplomatic back dealing especially in the case of ForceLord because he hardly posts.

Why? He announced his government would seek help and now he gets help.
It was posted in OOC thread to inform people what was going on beforehand.

What do you want? I shall also add that this is slightly funny considering you are writing a huge war with Siege were nobody currently knows what you two got planned out.

Who says we've got anything planned out? I've been throwing incidents at the wall to see what will make people respond in any way shape or form so that hopefully the game will actually come alive and take off. So far I'm pretty much coming up with 'nothing will'.

We've been escalating the crisis between Kagaria and the UOCSR on a post by post basis to see what it will take. So far it appears thousands dead in flipping SRBM barrages doesn't appear to be enough.