Are the Necromunda books any good?

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm not touching the Horus Heresy suff yet, and while I've got a shitload of other BL books to be reading (I pack rat at a greater rate than I read.) I'm curious. I've heard the Kal Jerico series is supposed to be good (and how many books are there in that? At least 3, and If I believe 1-2 short story compilations.)

What about the other Necromunda books?

Oh, and as a couple related questions that I didn't want to create a separate thread for:

1.) How many 40K books do the other BL readers out there have? I must be averaging around 60 right now, mainly alot of the older stuff (I've avoided the Dawn of War stuff like the plague, and some of the newer books that came out in hardcover.)

2.) I'm a bit curious on feedback as to how my 40k "analysis" threads are going? Anything good? Anything bad? Anything you'd like to see? Any other comments/criticisms/questions/requestS?

[Ford Prefect]

2.) I'm a bit curious on feedback as to how my 40k "analysis" threads are going? Anything good? Anything bad? Anything you'd like to see? Any other comments/criticisms/questions/requestS?

They may well prove to be a remarkably useful resource (and one that's easy to find - let me tell you). Even from a non-40k perspective they're interesting to read.

[Dartzap]

I currently own 28 paper backs, one hard cover and six omnibuses, which, if split into their individual stories would add another 18 to that total.

[Soontir C'boath]

I definitely know I own at least twenty WH40k novels.

I can't comment on your analysis threads since they're from the books I haven't read yet.

[andrewgpaul]

Andy Chambers' one was good - he wrote most of the setting, so it had a good sense of place. The only other one I read was Salvation. It was O.K., but it didn't seem like the authoer knew anything about the setting. If you've never played the game, that's less of an issue, I suppose. Mind you, it is by C.S. Goto.

[Stormbringer]

What about the other Necromunda books?

No idea. Unfortunately the Necromunda books seem to be treated as a semi-separate line which means that most bookstores don't seem to carry them.

1.) How many 40K books do the other BL readers out there have? I must be averaging around 60 right now, mainly alot of the older stuff (I've avoided the Dawn of War stuff like the plague, and some of the newer books that came out in hardcover.)

I've got 48 40k books, with only one being an omnibus and three being short story collections. (Actually, I've got two copies of Harlequin by accident but I only count it once.) I'd probably have a few more but my literary budget has gone down lately and so I've been picking more carefully. As it stands a lot of my collection is older stuff, much of it out of print, in part because of the drastically lower quality. I started carefully vetting any buy after feeling appallingly cheated by the Blood Angels duology (which I have heard was originally intended as a trilogy).

2.) I'm a bit curious on feedback as to how my 40k "analysis" threads are going? Anything good? Anything bad? Anything you'd like to see? Any other comments/criticisms/questions/requestS?

They're a great thread which makes for an excellent reference for all things 40k. I'm really glad that you're doing this as it dispels a lot of the BS that floats around the topic of 40k when it comes to calculations and hard evidence.

If you ever get the chance, I think it would be interesting to see an analysis of the Eisenhorn, Double Eagle, and Space Wolves novels. All of those have some very interesting stuff in them that I think would profit from a hard analysis. I'd especially like to see a thread for Double Eagle since it's the one really good look we get at Imperial and Chaos air combat and aircraft.

Oh and if you can afford it, the Sabbat World Crusade campaign book is also a good one. The fact that it has a lot of "picture" and descriptions might give you a helping hand for some of your future calculations.

PS: if you could get a mod to do it, a complied index post of all your analysis threads would be nice too.

[andrewgpaul]

After buying the first 4 Heresy novels the other day, I now have 30 non-game GW books (not Black Library; 10 are Boxtree editions, and 2 are GW Publishing )

[andrewgpaul]

Ghetto edit; plus the 4 Black Flame Dark Future Route 666 reprints; they're fun, too.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I own roughly a dozen or so 40k books, with all but 3 of them being omnibuses or short story collections.

For future reading I'd heavily reccomend "Let the Galaxy Burn" (Fantastic short story omnibus), and "Last Chancers" by Gav Thorpe ("Dirty Dozen" 40k style) (As well as Eisenhorn, of course, if you haven't read it).
I've finished Last Chancers and the First Ciaphas Cain omnibus recently and both are utterly awesome (Though the third 'Chancer's book/"Annihalation squad" is weaker if heavy on the Armaggedon technical details), with the Cain books being the best 40k stuff that I've read after Eisenhorn (And ranking above even the excellent short story collection of "Let the Galaxy Burn").

And the analysis threads are fascinating reading and highly useful, it's actually what got me to order the Cain omnibus (A fact for which I am highly grateful )

[Ar-Adunakhor]

I've only read a couple of Necromunda books, but they were interesting reads even if you could guess the plot and the twists a quarter of the way in. Not deep lit by any means, but fun to read and give an interesting look at a hive world's social and political structure. (and, of course, weapons and armor and such)

[Connor MacLeod]

My collection is as follows:

I have Exeuction hour and Shadow point, naturally.

I have Fifteen hours, of course

All of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels up to "his Last command", plus the omnibus for the short story. Of those, I've read up to Honour Guard completely, and are earmarked for future analysis (actually they're written up.) I plan to eventually reread the omnibus because the first three novels are my favorite. Double Eagle too, but haven't read it yet.

I've got all the Cain novels, including the Omnibus. I've read up to "Traitor's Hand" in the Ciaphas Cain series. I plan to re-read the first three and I'll continue my reading of 4 and 5 when I have finished the omnibus.

I have and have read eisenhorn. It too is written up (all three) and sitting on my HD.

I've got Ravenor and Ravenor Returned, and have read the first book

I've read all three Inquisition War novels. Not the BEST 40K I've read, though I liked the first two (disliked alot of the last bits, especially the WTF ending.) But its interesting from a technical/analytical standpoint for a number of reasons. It also has squats. And its still better than any Mando-wank.

I've got "Eye of Terror". Haven't read it yet. Some interesting tidbits in there (including one of the most insane and high-end las-pistol calcs - fish vaporization.)

I have the Blood Angels duology. I haven't read it yet, but it does look interesting. However, it tends to under-rate cap ship firepower (which is okay, because Abnett seems to as well.) but some of the implied combat ranges are INSANE.

I have "Grey Knights and Dark Adeptus". I'm not totally enamoured of the characters, and the capship firepower leaves something to be desired, but its still a nice read. Also has one of the more insane guard firepower calcs implied (demon vaporization).

I have the Soul Drinkers omnibus and "Chapter War" I am currently reading Soul Drinkers, and this one hs alot o finteresting technical tidbits to uncover. Sarpedon is a dick, though, and I didn't think I'd find a Chapter as goofy as the Imperial Fists until I read it. It also has liquid plasma.

I have the ultramarines omnibus, Haven't touched it though. I've cited some quotes from it for some purposes, though. The Ultramarines are too damn prissy for my tastes, and VEntris frrom what I've skimmed of the third novel becomes as bad as Boba Fett in a Traviss novel.

I also have "Storm of Iron" by Graham McNeill. Technically, its quite an impressive novel, though I hate Honsou. Enjoyabel read nonetheless.

I have "Iron Hands" - this one looks like a fun novel both from an analytical and a story-based perspective. I have to say the Iron Hands look like one of the more enjoyable Chapters out there and don't seem to be like massive dicks like the others. Also has Cadians, and some cool potential lasgun calcs. And bolters vaporizing people and parts of people.

I also have "Crusade and Conquest" of Armageddon. The Black Templars look to be as dicky as the rest of the Imperial Fists successor chapters, but the novels are enjoyable, because Armageddon is one of my favorite settings, and it has some interesting technical stuff in it too.

I have the William King Space Wolves novels (The omnibus and the one with the Navigators in it.) I haven't read past that because I've heard less than pleasant things about the new author. Doe sanyone suggest I pick up the newer 'non-King" novels as well?

I've read the Last Chancers omnibus. I liked the first two novels, hated the last one. Lots of interesting tidbits, but I kinda dislike some of Thorpe's ideas on the Guard.

I've also read and acquired "Angels of Darkness" - very useful if you want quantitative information on Space Marines, even if the Dark Angels are perhaps the biggest dicks of any Space Marine chapter (aside from the Fists, that is.) Also has a bolt pistol vaporizing a human head.

I have the three Shira Calpurnia novels. Started the first one, looks interesting, but probably not a whole heck of alot analysis wise. Second novel does give some interesting ideas about lasguns. I also kinda like Hydraphur and the Arbites.

I also have Rogue Star, but haven't read yet. The Tau wank is strong in that novel.

I also have the Imperial Infantryman's uplifting primer, the Sabbat Worlds Crusade book, and the tactica Imperialis. I'm not sure if I am going to "braek down" those the way I am the novels. Much of the analysis in SWC is by imagery.

I'm considering buying:

The Necromunda novels, at least possibly Kal Jerico (it seems to be partly inspired by Gordon REnnie, so I'm hoping for something good.)

I haven't decided yet on Death World. I'm not a big fan of the Catachans, and from what I've skimmed of it in the bookstore it makes me wonder why the Space Marines don't recruit exclusively on Catachan (imagine a million strong Astartes army comprised solely of Catachans.) Sly Marbo kicks ass, though. and there are a few minor lasgun "incinerations" though nothing directly quantifiable.

I may get "Rebel Winter" when it comes out. Again, undecided. There seems to be a Tallarn one in the pipe I'm guessing frrom the "coming soon"

Armour of Contempt and Brothers of the Snake, definitely, when they come out in paperback. And Ravenor Rogue.

The Horus Heresy? Eventually. They're new, I dont have to worry about them now. Whole 'nother Era. Let it get more complete first.

STar of DAmocles, probably. I'll have to touch on the Tau at some point I suppose

Probably some of the new upcoming guides (the Damocles crusade uplifting primer perhaps and liekly the Imperial Munitorum manual.

Sandy mitchell is coming out with a new "Scourge of the Heretic" novel - you know I'll get that.

Is "Let the Galaxy Burn" any good? I might get that (I saw it re-stocked in B&N lately.)

[Connor MacLeod]

I've only read a couple of Necromunda books, but they were interesting reads even if you could guess the plot and the twists a quarter of the way in. Not deep lit by any means, but fun to read and give an interesting look at a hive world's social and political structure. (and, of course, weapons and armor and such)

That's one reason I'm considering it. I love the Guard stuff and the navy stuff, (parrt of the reason I can tolerate some of the Space marine stuff is because it has a little of both) but I'm also looking at other aspects (like the Arbites and the inquisition and such.)

[Ford Prefect]

You are one busy man Connor. And 'fish vaporization' sounds positively hilarious.

[Connor MacLeod]

No idea. Unfortunately the Necromunda books seem to be treated as a semi-separate line which means that most bookstores don't seem to carry them.

I buy most of my stuff off Amazon, because I've worked to get ALOT of the older shit (which is, unfortunately more expensive, but I've been lucky in alot of ways.) It looks like on Amazon I can get most of them in good quality for a decent price so I may go for it.

The one old one I missed was "Space Marine" but I hear that might be for the best. (I don't care for the Imperial Fists overmuch if you can tell - mainly because they seem to be hardcore masochists deep down.)

I've got 48 40k books, with only one being an omnibus and three being short story collections. (Actually, I've got two copies of Harlequin by accident but I only count it once.) I'd probably have a few more but my literary budget has gone down lately and so I've been picking more carefully. As it stands a lot of my collection is older stuff, much of it out of print, in part because of the drastically lower quality. I started carefully vetting any buy after feeling appallingly cheated by the Blood Angels duology (which I have heard was originally intended as a trilogy).

yeah. I've read a few of the newer ones and they aren't quite as good as the older stuff, though there are exceptions.

Blood angels aren't BAD BAD - though you get an impression the writer doesn't know the 40K universe too well (kinda the same way with Soul Drinkers) I actually thought the Blood Angels premise was interesting, though the Inquisitor was overplayed. I think one reason I like it is the Blood Angels aren't presented as being like total dicks. (One of my major gripes about the Space Marine novels I've been reading about - ie Dark Angels - they're fucking assholes. Reading Soul Drinkers is not reinforcing this image.)

They're a great thread which makes for an excellent reference for all things 40k. I'm really glad that you're doing this as it dispels a lot of the BS that floats around the topic of 40k when it comes to calculations and hard evidence.

I got tired of doing it at Spacebattles. Its easier if I do it here and let other people refrencee if they need to (though I've evidently have to do alot more explaining in some cases...)

If you ever get the chance, I think it would be interesting to see an analysis of the Eisenhorn, Double Eagle, and Space Wolves novels. All of those have some very interesting stuff in them that I think would profit from a hard analysis. I'd especially like to see a thread for Double Eagle since it's the one really good look we get at Imperial and Chaos air combat and aircraft.

Eisenhorn is all ready to go. I havent touched Double Eagle totally or the Space Wolves novels. Air combat in there is interesting I admit, though I think it over-emphasizes the "dogfighting" bit and ignores the fact we know 40K fighters can and do use air to air missiles.

Incidentally there is some fighter-to fighter combat in Conquest for Armageddon as well (where you have Lightnings with plasma reactors and air to air missiles )

If I read Double Eagle it will be for the tank guy from honour guard (Guin or LeGuin or Penguin, I forget what..)

Oh and if you can afford it, the Sabbat World Crusade campaign book is also a good one. The fact that it has a lot of "picture" and descriptions might give you a helping hand for some of your future calculations.

It and Tactica Imperialis and Uplifting primer already have in some ways. The bit with the earthquake shearing through the bridge image was calcable, but I never bothered trying. its got alot of bigass explosions in images, but we already knew that

Funny enough, one of the more useful bits I've found in it has to do with the strap width of lasguns (an analysis in Ghostmaker involving some water and a lasgun...)

Tactica Imperialis has been the msot interesting and useful so far, followed by the Uplifting Primer.

PS: if you could get a mod to do it, a complied index post of all your analysis threads would be nice too.

Eventually I can probably just put in a "post" indexing it myself and ask one of the mods to sticky it. Right now though, if you type in the name of the novel (IE Execution Hour, First and only") or the series for some (Ciaphas Cain, Gaunt's Ghosts") you can find it, if you specify the OSF forum and under my nickname. I've already referenced my analysis pages that way more than once.

[Connor MacLeod]

You are one busy man Connor. And 'fish vaporization' sounds positively hilarious.

I had to read it a few times. There's some wonky bits to it (like taking place on a Chaos world in the EoT) but I've never believed much in the "EoT violates physics' even though some moron claimed the speed of light was infinite in there.

Edit: And its a big fish, too. And possibly a civilian las weapon. And it occured underwater (supposedly.)

[Ford Prefect]

I had to read it a few times. There's some wonky bits to it (like taking place on a Chaos world in the EoT) but I've never believed much in the "EoT violates physics' even though some moron claimed the speed of light was infinite in there.

Considering we have stuff like a planet with a white sky and a black sun, and a star that is shaped like a rose (I think it was star cluster, actually), and a 'world' made up of brass cages where the smell of searing flesh propagates through vacuum ... you might have to forgive people for thinking things are just a little trippy in there.

Though the speed of light being infinite is just silly (though lots and lots of people just misuse infinite). It implies that something is uniform across the Eye. Not even 'strangeness' is uniform anymore

Edit: And its a big fish, too. And possibly a civilian las weapon. And it occured underwater (supposedly.)

Man, I love 40k.

As an aside, there really need to be more Salamanders books. You couldn't get a bunch of Space Marines who were less dicky than the Salamanders.

Also, isn't there some sort of absurdly large sword in Soul Drinkers that uses suspensors to make it easier to weild? I've heard that somewhere, but never been able to confirm it (and you've read some of Soul Drinkers already).

[Connor MacLeod]

Considering we have stuff like a planet with a white sky and a black sun, and a star that is shaped like a rose (I think it was star cluster, actually), and a 'world' made up of brass cages where the smell of searing flesh propagates through vacuum ... you might have to forgive people for thinking things are just a little trippy in there.

No, it depends heavily on the mechanism by which things are manipualted. ASsuming its not just illusion we see.

Think about it. If physics were dramatically different in the EoT than in the "real" universe (the materium), how could the two ever interact? How could humans in the materium ever venture into a Chaos world (or Chaos creatures venture out?) Last I checked, 40K's physics didn't radically diverge from our own in the way that allows "speed of light = infinite" in the Warp sort of things.

Also, isn't there some sort of absurdly large sword in Soul Drinkers that uses suspensors to make it easier to weild? I've heard that somewhere, but never been able to confirm it (and you've read some of Soul Drinkers already).

An Interrogator boards the Soul Drinkers ship to execute Sarpedon IIRC (I haven't read that far ahead yet, but skimmed it earlier.) and IIRC he had a huge-ass sword with suspensors on it. Not surprising, since earlier fluff had heavy weapons typically using suspensors to make them mobile. The Inquisiton War novels had women using suspensors to hold up impractically huge hairstyles on some planets.

[Ford Prefect]

No, it depends heavily on the mechanism by which things are manipualted. ASsuming its not just illusion we see.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the Eye did have different physics, just that the absurdly messed up stuff in there caused by high-end Daemons playing games with reality could cause people to believe that they are in fact different. Lots of things hold true - you can't breathe in space in the Eye, unless the local Prince decides he wants to amuse himself with the concept. As the Eye is a lot more like warpspace than normal, Daemons are capable of considerably more feats of bizarrity - whole worlds formed from their thoughts, Bloodthirsters playing golf with planets and so on.

I also very much dislike any 'illusion' cop outs. It just struck me as silly for anyone to claim 'it's an illusion!' without any sort of reference to that in the narrative at all. Not merely in 40k but everywhere.

Think about it. If physics were dramatically different in the EoT than in the "real" universe (the materium), how could the two ever interact? How could humans in the materium ever venture into a Chaos world (or Chaos creatures venture out?)

Faith in the Emperor? Obviously, some warp critters can't actually exist outside of the Immaterium without serious mojo on their side; Daemons evaporate if reality around them is too stable. And there are worlds where people would actually die, though that would have nothing to do with different physical constants (conversely, there are worlds where people can live easily - there are slaves in the Eye, and Schaeffer has lead a raid somewhere inside).

Last I checked, 40K's physics didn't radically diverge from our own in the way that allows "speed of light = infinite" in the Warp sort of things.

'Lightspeed = infinite' is just silly. In fact, anyone claiming infinities for just about anything is just silly - the word gets horrifically misused at times.

*snip*

Awesome. Thanks.

[Stormbringer]

I have the Blood Angels duology. I haven't read it yet, but it does look interesting. However, it tends to under-rate cap ship firepower (which is okay, because Abnett seems to as well.) but some of the implied combat ranges are INSANE.

Connor, just be aware that must of the Marine information in that is contradictory to established Blood Angels fluff. I personally found them appallingly boring and some of the worst fits for fluff I've come across. If you have them, read them at your own risk.

But I still maintain that they're some of the only BL novels which are almost impossible to square with GW established canon.

I have the William King Space Wolves novels (The omnibus and the one with the Navigators in it.) I haven't read past that because I've heard less than pleasant things about the new author. Does anyone suggest I pick up the newer 'non-King" novels as well?

From what I understand, Sons of Fenris has prose about on the Ben Counter level along with a plot which seems to shave a lot of IQ points off everyone involved. Unless you're an obsessive completest I'd ignore them.

That's one reason I'm considering it. I love the Guard stuff and the navy stuff, (parrt of the reason I can tolerate some of the Space marine stuff is because it has a little of both) but I'm also looking at other aspects (like the Arbites and the inquisition and such.)

If you're looking for Arbites action, there are the Shira Calpurnia novels. The series stands at Crossfire, Legacy, and Blind. More will probably follow, the author just works at a glacial pace.

[andrewgpaul]

I'm interested in your opinions on Ian Watson's stories, Connor. While I agree that the end of the Inquisition War trilogy is poor, I do feel that Watson's description of the Imperium is first-rate. He really gives a feel of the corruption and debasement of the Imperium. It's a problem I have with some of the newer writers - Mostly Abnett, because he's the new author I've read most - they don't seem to convey the "grim darkness of the far future". Mind you, I have that problem with Bill King's Space Wolf novels and Farseer, and he wrote a good chunk of the original fluff (the Space Wolves as Techno-Vikings, the original '2nd Armageddon War', 'Emperor vs Horus' and 'siege of Earth' flavour stories, to name a few - there's a full bibliography here).

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the Eye did have different physics, just that the absurdly messed up stuff in there caused by high-end Daemons playing games with reality could cause people to believe that they are in fact different. Lots of things hold true - you can't breathe in space in the Eye, unless the local Prince decides he wants to amuse himself with the concept. As the Eye is a lot more like warpspace than normal, Daemons are capable of considerably more feats of bizarrity - whole worlds formed from their thoughts, Bloodthirsters playing golf with planets and so on.

that doesn't require "different physics" though, it just requires .them to be able to manipulate things more easily (IE magic) which isn't a probelm in 40K given all the warpcraft and whatnot. You could create atmospheres in space if you have the means to create a way to contain it, for example. It doesn't matter a great deal if the containment comes from technology or from warp-baesd magics.

If the "warp/material world" connection is to have any significance, it may simply be that because the connection to the warp is stronger in such places, the efforts requierd for such manipulation are easier. Its not a real stretch to imagine Daemons and the like might be stronger IN the Warp than out of it (that's one of the fundamental aspects of a Daemonhost, as Eisenhorn goes over, as I recall.)

I also very much dislike any 'illusion' cop outs. It just struck me as silly for anyone to claim 'it's an illusion!' without any sort of reference to that in the narrative at all. Not merely in 40k but everywhere.

Why is illusion/mind manipulation such a problem? We know its an ability Daemons can employ, especially followers of Tzeentch. Fucking with someone's minds so they think they're on some Age of Aquarius acid trip is perfectly consistent with Daemonic behaviour.

Faith in the Emperor? Obviously, some warp critters can't actually exist outside of the Immaterium without serious mojo on their side; Daemons evaporate if reality around them is too stable. And there are worlds where people would actually die, though that would have nothing to do with different physical constants (conversely, there are worlds where people can live easily - there are slaves in the Eye, and Schaeffer has lead a raid somewhere inside).

The reason I've gathered for why Daemons or other creatures can't exist outside the warp for long is because the Immaterium is basically what sustains them. They feed off of souls, and the Immaterium is basically a mass of souls. Much harder to feed in the Materium, where the souls are hidden in all those creatures. They have to take over a body before they can feed on it.

To elaborate: the soul, IIRC, is the person's connection ot the warp, ,so obviously by possessing a person, they acquire a connection to it. This probably can also explain why Daemons bound to material objects are much weaker (such as daemonhosts) - the connecction to the warp is much smaller than they're used to, ,so they can only tap a correspondingly smaller fraction of it. Moreover, tapping it at the levels they're used to probably is why they use up bodies so readily.

Moreover, it also explains why feats in the Eye of TError seem so much easier and powerful - their "connection" to the Warp there is a much bigger, stronger one than what they could get from possessing someone.

Anyhow, what I was getting at with the problems of realspace/warp interactions if their physics are so different is that if that were true, the two would be COMPLETEYL incompatible (destructively so, I believe.) Mike has commented on this with regards to some of the more insane Voyager concepts (like Fluidic space.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor, just be aware that must of the Marine information in that is contradictory to established Blood Angels fluff. I personally found them appallingly boring and some of the worst fits for fluff I've come across. If you have them, read them at your own risk.

Like which parts? I hven't read much fluff on the Blood angels (old or new), so I'm not aware of any differences.

But I still maintain that they're some of the only BL novels which are almost impossible to square with GW established canon.

The Inquisition War was more insane (especially Chaos Child.)

From what I understand, Sons of Fenris has prose about on the Ben Counter level along with a plot which seems to shave a lot of IQ points off everyone involved. Unless you're an obsessive completest I'd ignore them.

I might, if for no other reason than it might have some interesting technical tidbits about PDFs. I plan to skim it next time I can find it at the bookstore.

If you're looking for Arbites action, there are the Shira Calpurnia novels. The series stands at Crossfire, Legacy, and Blind. More will probably follow, the author just works at a glacial pace.

I already have them

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm interested in your opinions on Ian Watson's stories, Connor.

Haven't read Space Marine. Its a fucking expensive buy, far more than I'm willing to spend. And accoridng to some, its officially apocrypha. Only read the Inquisition War (if he made any other novels in 40K, I don' tknow them.)

Overall he's not a "bad" writer (relative to the shit I dealt with in the SW expanded universe, at least.) I gradualyl grew tired of Jaq Draco's evident decline into insanity and his obsession with the Assassin. I liked Lex somewhat, and Grim. I disliked the constant reminders of the fact Imperial Fists seem to be closet hardcore Masochists For The Emperor's Glory! It makes them a bit one dimensional IMHO, though I did enjoy Lex's scrimshawing - a Space Marine with a hobby, imagine that.

Technically, he seems to have alot of interesting concepts, though its clearly the novels draw on a much much earlier order of 40K fluff, much older than most writers do. Its interesting in the sense that it provides a perspective on EARLIER 40K, much the way Eye of Terror does. while some of the earlier concepts were quite intriguing (the Hydra, the Sensei, the Illuminati) there were alot of other concepts I was annoyed with.

While I agree that the end of the Inquisition War trilogy is poor, I do feel that Watson's description of the Imperium is first-rate. He really gives a feel of the corruption and debasement of the Imperium. It's a problem I have with some of the newer writers - Mostly Abnett, because he's the new author I've read most - they don't seem to convey the "grim darkness of the far future".

See, that's one thing I dislike seeing portrayed so much in 40K, and its one of the things that annoyed me about the IW novels. I do realize that the game (and some of the fluff) has built the whole "grim darkness" bit into a key element, but I don't think it translates too well into an acutal story. In-universe, it seems more like a parody, or propaganda (40k has never been above poking fun at itself, which is one reason I think the Cain novels work so well.)

The other part of this in the IW novels that I disliked was that I always felt I was constantly battered over the head with the "dark, grrim, and despiar" bit. Or the constant rhapsodizing about how important pain and suffering and sacrifice to the Emperor was. It made Draco a bit more of a one-dimensional character I thought (It was understandable in the Space Marine, the Masochism for the Emperor's Glory bit aside. But Lex at least had hobbies, which we can't say for Jaq.) and contributed to my overall impression of his madness. Being a Gourmand is not much of an outlet.

"Grimness and Darkness" as a concept work great in 40K, because it provides something for people to fight against, to strive to overcome. something more than just the "enemies on all sides." But it shouldn't be taken to extremes (which, unfortunatley, seems to happen alot, even in the writing.) I'll never believe the IoM is exactly a benevolent organization, but I don't see a problem in there being likeable, exceptional, and innately good people in it, as well as bad. And such people should be likeable and identifiable - they shouldn't be cookie-cutter zealot stereotypes (in the books at least.) Its one reason I like the Abnett and Cain novels, or the Rennie novels. Even Storm of Iron was good, although the ending was ultimately tragic.

I should also note this is one thing I dislike about the Soul Drinkers novels - the Soul Drinkers are an interesting concept, but they do become kind of idiotic, one dimensional characters, and the constant harping upon the "total corruption of the Imperium" grows tiresome. Particularily when they prove mainly to be gullible fools manipulated by anyone. (Then again they're Rogal Dorn descendants, so that may simply be the explanation. As you can tell, I'm becoming a bit tired of Dorn's successors.) That and Counter seems dead set on making everyone in the Imperium (especially other Space Marines and the ADeptus Mechanicus) out to be total dicks. Though he has also written up some likeable characters too (just not any of the Soul Drinkers )

Mind you, I have that problem with Bill King's Space Wolf novels and Farseer, and he wrote a good chunk of the original fluff (the Space Wolves as Techno-Vikings, the original '2nd Armageddon War', 'Emperor vs Horus' and 'siege of Earth' flavour stories, to name a few - there's a full bibliography here).

Haven't read either, but they don't look too bad. I've heard William King is quite a good writer, though.

[andrewgpaul]

I'm interested in your opinions on Ian Watson's stories, Connor.

Haven't read Space Marine. Its a fucking expensive buy, far more than I'm willing to spend. And accoridng to some, its officially apocrypha.

Bullshit. It's the source of the 3rd edition Index Astartes material; Paraplegic Chaplain Ran Lo, Librarian Grenzstein, the Chapter's habits of duelling and obsessive planning. Heck, even the Phalanx itself although not mentioned by name, comes from that book.

I doubt it'll ever get a reprint, sadly, since one of the key sections occurs in a rebel Squat stronghold

Haven't read either, but they don't look too bad. I've heard William King is quite a good writer, though.[/quote]

[andrewgpaul]

Not to mention, Lexandro d'Arquebus, from Harlequin and Chaos Child is the central character.