The Christians of Narnia Web

[Bluewolf]

I've been watching a little discussion on the Narnia Web forum. For those who don't know its a Fansite for the Books and Movie.(though movies
soon) They have this little thread called "On Christianity". A great deal of Christian Bullshit. At the moment the topic in it is about hell:

http://www.narniaweb.com/forum/forum_po ... N=1&TPN=21

Note: These are all by diffrent members.

Humans think it is awful that God would send people to hell, but really we should be saying it's beyond amazing that God would bring some people to heaven! How we think depends on how we see ourselves before a holy and awesome God!

Note on this: A member compared god to Kim Jong-il and it was about how a faimly treated him like a god.

That is quite a bold statement to compare God to a mere single person. We cannot understand God's ways unless he reveals them to us. I am not using that as a cop-out, but one thing I do know about God is his perfection and holiness. God's character is such that to have even the tiniest flaw in him would completely destroy all he is, all he has said, and basically everything. But let's set that aside for the time being.

No matter whether God is perfect as we claim, or not perfect as you, brfanatic claim, God still set up the standard to be absolute perfection. This law of absolute perfection must be upheld. This is just like the Deep Magic depicted in LWW. There is no working against this law. If the law is broken, then the due punishment must be served. When Adam and Eve where in Eden, their choice was very simple. Eat the fruit or not. By eating the fruit, they gained the knowledge of evil, and that has passed on to all of the human race and is the sinful nature that Paul adheres to. Just having the knowledge of evil, when man was initially created without it, is enough to be deemed sinful. And the price of sin against an absolute perfect standard must be paid. The wages of sin is complete and perfect death. Not just physically, but spiritually, emotionally, etc.

That being said, the merciful aspects of God is so immense that those who have recieved it can't help but perpetually speaking about it. God could have just as easily destroyed all of creation the moment Adam and Eve sinned, because his law demanded that they die for having knowledge of evil. But he was merciful and allowed them to repent. It did not change the fact that they sinned, but by looking to their merciful creator after turing away from him, God welcomed them back.

That brings up the question of did those who lived before Jesus go to heaven? The answer is some yes, others, no. The ones that did were looking ahead in time to the coming of Jesus, while we look back at what he did.

Finally, you have charged God with being a serial killer. That is serious business there. As I have said, I don't understand God's ways and the only time I do is when he reveals them to me. Does God take life just for spite, or is it justice? Or could it be that he allows things to happen for an entirely different reason? Why does God allow millions of babies to be aborted in our country alone? Why does he allow natural disasters to take so many lives? Why does he allow 'good' people to suffer and 'bad' people to prosper? Some reasons are due to justice. Others are due to him 'handing us over to our sinful desires'. There are even times where he allows bad things to happen to test those who have put thier faith in him. Look at Job. What did his whole family do to deserve death? It was all allowed so God could prove to Satan (not that he needed to) that Job would stay faithful no matter what. These reason are not completely exhaustive but they do put things into a different perspective.

If views on an entity are based on a world of denial and either won't see or accept the truth, then you need a better basis on what the truth is than what the Bible says. Over and over again, the Bible has proven itself to be completely consistant and it boils down to either accept it or reject it. But you cannot pick and chose with the Bible. Either all of it is true, or none of it is. If we are blind to the truth or too afraid to accept it, perhaps you could enlighten us as to what the truth is. It doesn't do to claim we are blind or scared of truth if you don't say what it is. We believe the Bible is the Truth and we have something solid to stand on. If we are in denial, what is it we are denying? If we are blind, what is it that we are not seeing? Are we afraid that what we believe might not be true? I have had such doubts in my life. I have wondered before if the Bible really is the absolute Truth that I believe it to be. I could just accept it for what it is, but I could also go through every single religion and belief, and through the process of elimination, I would discover that only true Christianity as the Bible depicts is 100% accurate and true.

Bad huh? It gets worse


At the time appointed by God all Heaven and Earth will be consumed by the 'Fires of Hell' and a new Heaven and a New Earth will take their place.

In the same way that metal is purified by fire, so all the imperfections brought into the world by sin will be cleansed by the 'all consuming fire' of Gods wrath. But that is not necesarrily the 'Hell' that all the 'bad' people will go to.

On judgement day God will seperate all of the people into those that loved him, and those that didn't love him. Those that loved him and accepted the sacrifice of his son will go to be with him for eternity, and those that did not will go to be without him for enternity.

By not accepting Him as their savior, they seal their own doom. He has no other choice but to judge them according to what they have chosen. Which side will you choose?[/quote]

A member compared god to the said gods:

I cannot believe in Zeus or Poseidon because I know they are quite mythical. In the same way, I know God is not mythical. I know because He changed my life and I've experienced His presence and care in my life. If you have not experienced that, I can see how hard it would be to believe such a thing...even though to my mind all evidence points to a God.

God does not have human flaws:

The Greek gods were very human--they exhibited the same flaws and foibles, same irrational actions and such. The people gave them sacrifices in the hope that they wouldn't be bothered by divine whim or ire. There was no love between them and their gods--at best a fearful respect, at worst a dubious, half-hearted belief in them. It's typical of most other gods/religions actually...no divine love or a personal relationship--just whatever the gods happen to feel like doing to the pitiful humans.

Get a load of this bs:

I think atheists have a rather limited worldview- they seem to believe any concept, if it can't be discovered through science or basic human reason, is not worth believing. Just because the idea of God is far above and beyond our understanding doesn't mean there can't possibly be a God, or that believing in one is as absurd as believing in the tooth fairy.

And finally:

Just remember, brfanatic12, that we Christians believe that the consequences of sin are far more severe than mere physical death.

As for laws, I ask that you compare the laws of the Bible to those of Hammurabi or other lawmakers such as Draco and Solon. Compared to these, the Bible is mild.

As for the dictator stigma, remember that God alone has the right to be worshipped, according to Judeo-Christian doctrine and He alone holds the right of life and death and thus he can delegate it, just like a human ruler can.

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I just wanted to see what you though about all this.

[Darth Wong]

So their response to proof of God's imperfection is to say that God defines perfection, so he must be perfect. Nice circular logic. And their response to proof of God's evil deeds is to say that there MIGHT be a good reason for it, we just don't know enough to be sure because we're not omniscient. I hope all the criminals in the world take note of that one; what a wonderfully open-ended defense.

A typical Christian apologist's mind works like this:

Step 1: See anti-Christian argument.
Step 2: Since it is anti-Christian, it must be wrong.
Step 3: Look for a way to segue into recitation of Sunday School talking points.
Step 4: Recite Sunday School talking points.

Step 3 need not have anything to do with the point raised by the original argument. It only needs to use some of the same words, hence sound like it's related. Seriously, that's how their minds work; they literally look for a few keywords and then seize upon those as the basis of a rebuttal. They don't bother looking at how the argument works at all.

That's why so many Christian apologists seem like they must be AI chatbots, because a chatbot works the same way; it looks for keywords in order to trigger canned responses because it can't really understand what you're saying. The difference is that an AI chatbot literally isn't capable of understanding you, while a Christian apologist finds it disturbing and uncomfortable to read through anti-Christian arguments (there's an undercurrent of fear in the way Christian apologists approach anti-Christian writings; they are afraid that they might make sense), so he just skims them looking for an excuse to stop reading and start talking.

[Bluewolf]

Brfanatic12 seems the only sane one there. But he/she is grossly outnumbered.

[Darth Wong]

As an aside, this is why a Christian who takes philosophy in a decent university program is far less likely to completely fuck it up than one who merely "self-teaches". The professor will simply not let him get away with his usual modus operandi of skimming anything that makes him uncomfortable rather than reading it thoroughly. Without that corrective mechanism, the average Christian will tend to read and re-read the parts of any given philosophy tome which reinforce his worldview and skip over the rest.

[Jericho Kross]

Quote:
I cannot believe in Zeus or Poseidon because I know they are quite mythical. In the same way, I know God is not mythical. I know because He changed my life and I've experienced His presence and care in my life. If you have not experienced that, I can see how hard it would be to believe such a thing...even though to my mind all evidence points to a God.

It is funny how they choose how to look at other gods as "mythical" but don't apply the same out look to their god. Also how does the evidence all point to god? Did he pick and choose what to analyze or did he just go with the flow?

[Bluewolf]

From the sane one Brfanatic12:

So kot, you think that not one person at all who worshipped Zeus felt his presence? Not even one? Because that is all it takes, just one.

Sabe:Really atheist evolutionists feel that deism is a natural part of human evolution. Take for instance humans in prehistoric ages, such as "cavemen", do you think they believed in a God and lived their lives to serve him? Or were they not exactly capable of comprehending such a device? The ability to believe in such a thing has expanded in our minds over time, and as we gain the ability to question more, it has become an easy solution.

Which brings me to the point that I feel that is is believers who hold a very limited view on our world. To them we basically got here by someone who created us and put us here, end of story(almost). To scientists though, or mainly evolutionists, the existance of us and our world is mindblowing. How we got here, explained by science, opens up a nearly endless stream of possibilities. Where as religion offers only a few explanations to our beginning. There is so much out there we don't know about in space and even here on earth, and the informed atheists realize this. Also, do you think atheists, or mainly evolutionists believe in atheism for no reason? Kot stated that she believed in God because of the presence he has had in her life, not because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Evolutionists have researched and found their own reasoning as to why there is no God.

Now about Zeus, you might think he was clearly invented by humans, but most likely the people who believed in him at the time didn't see that. Sort of like how I "clearly" see the Bible as being purely invented by humans where as like 95% of the people on here don't. It is all a matter of opinion, be it voluntary or forced. Forced as in when I was in school, it was basically told as solid fact that Greek Mythology well was, mythology. It was stated Zeus was fictional, but does that mean the people of Zeus's time believed that?

I will just give you some of my opinions on why the Bible to me seems as fictionally written as does some of the other sources of life, such as Greek Gods.

Deuteronomy 17:3-17:5And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

What that says to me is if you believe in another God, you basically should be stoned to death by the masses. Sounds like something a power hungry dictator would write in the laws of his nation.

Leviticus 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

Alright if you sleep with your daughter in-law, you should both be killed. Now yeah that is a pretty hmm, "bad" thing to do, but I mean should you really be killed for that?

Anyways, believe me when I say there are a lot more examples sounding just like that in the Bible, don't really feel like going through all of em, cause I hope you get my point of view on it.

Alright, but one is apparently trying to enforce his Christian laws upon others. I think you actually might have been the one who was seemingly alright with that, but yeah. Also, why would it be neccessary to put a non-believer to death as a punishment if their punishment was much more severe anyways when they naturally die? It also doesn't change the fact that the Bible is telling you to kill any admitted non-believers or false idolators.

Also, why is ther need for comparison? Don't try and make it seem any less harsh by comparing it to other laws. Killing someone by repeatedly hitting them with stones might seem mild compared to say ripping the flesh off of someone, but that doesn't mean stoning is any more humane by itself.

Yes according to circular doctrine. The Bible is also true because it says it is true, can't argue with that at all.

Yeah I would believe that might be logical, course I don't really see where I mentioned anything that would require you to say that about poly and mono religious evolution.

You really think it wasn't an easy solution? For thousands of years, people or societies have come up with stories to explain how things came to be. These stories often associate themselves with Gods or mystical beings. You have these types of stories for everything from fire to the weather, to outer space. It is painfully obvious we crave explanation judging by our cultures from the past. God and every other way of explaining it using mysterious terms are just ways of fulfilling that desire.

Your second statement doesn't make much sense to me. You start off by saying not all Christians may not believe in intelligent design only to abruptly end it by saying there are better reasons to believe in God??

They do research it, they research life, not God. God may not be something you have to conclude, but scientific life and the engines that run it is.

As for your responses with the verses, the Bible is saying it is your responsibility to kill the aforementioned sinners. I don't believe in your God, so theoretically it is your duty to God to come over here and kill me.

Remember I am not arguing that it is wrong to sleep with your daughter in-law or in his perspective worship another God, I am arguing the point he makes in which you are supposed to kill the person for doing so. THAT seems logical to you? *comforts you*

[CaptJodan]

I just wanted to see what you though about all this.

I'm not sure why we are even involving ourselves in someone else's fundie board unless there is something new here, which there really isn't. There are some crazy, immoral Christians out there who believe logic isn't logic unless it is circular and it isn't news. I guess some need a new chewtoy?

As for your responses with the verses, the Bible is saying it is your responsibility to kill the aforementioned sinners. I don't believe in your God, so theoretically it is your duty to God to come over here and kill me.

Remember I am not arguing that it is wrong to sleep with your daughter in-law or in his perspective worship another God, I am arguing the point he makes in which you are supposed to kill the person for doing so. THAT seems logical to you? *comforts you*

I checked with the FSM, and he says that someone on that board will come back with the "that was the old law, Jesus fixed it, we don't have to kill you, he'll judge you later" response. It's bad when you start predicting responses.