I broke Vista

[Stark]

The other day I finally switched my old piece of shit overheating modem for a new one. Everything's fine, until the first reboot after swapping modems. Vista declares that I'm now part of a new network, and would I like to configure it now. 'Configuration' consists of naming it and adjusting discoverability settings. So I go though the motions, figuring it won't affect anything anyway.

However, now no MSN client can connect on this machine. MSN clients on other machines, though the same modem, connect fine. MSN itself and other software using the MSN protocol don't work. The internal MSN connection tests all pass fine. Obviously, every other network system works fine, from updates to gaming to VPNs to browsing to p2p and MSN works on other machines, so please no 'zomg configure your routerz' suggestions.

I've poked around Vista trying to find a list of all the 'networks' I've set up, to try and compare settings, but I can't find it anywhere. As far as I can tell there's no reason why MSN shouldn't connect. I've even opened the huge block of ports MSN likes to use, even though that should't be necessary. The signin process never finishes (although it's quite happy to sign me out of other clients).

Ideas? I figure Vista and it's 'set up your network' stuff has broken something, but I can't find the settings that ridiculous wizard changes. There's a 'managed saved networks' option in the control panel, but it just takes me to the network sharing window and has no information about the different 'networks' I've set up.

Christ, this one worthless abstraction of 'networks' is wearing out my apostrophe.

[Resinence]

I know it's obvious and stupid, but I've had this problem (MSN just sits on "logging in") and a hard-reset of the router normally fixes it...

[Stark]

Oh, I've tried that, don't you worry about that.

[Zac Naloen]

This itself may sound obvious again, but have you tried just booting up the wizard again and overwriting your old settings..

[Stark]

To what? I chose the same settings, and I can't see the 'network' definitions from the last 'network' setting anywhere. As far as I can tell it's just for laptops to ensure privacy when on wireless hotspots (by using the 'public' setting), so I'm not even 100% that's the problem.

And really, what the christ is so special about MSN? Everything else works, every network app I can find has no problems, and even MSN's own tests say I'm directly connected to the MSN servers. Bastard thing just won't sign in, and it's clearly something about this machine as other MSN-protocol clients have the same problem on it, but there are no problems on other machines on the network.

[Zac Naloen]

To what? I chose the same settings, and I can't see the 'network' definitions from the last 'network' setting anywhere. As far as I can tell it's just for laptops to ensure privacy when on wireless hotspots (by using the 'public' setting), so I'm not even 100% that's the problem.

You may well be right here.

Sometimes MSN just fucks up on people and refuses to log in sometimes, it has nothing to do with the network.

I've seen this with MSN before Vista even, it's rare though. But an uninstall and reinstall of MSN has fixed it for someone I know who it happened to.

It might be worth uninstalling MSN and starting again with it.

[Redleader34]

Try a third party client, like Pidgn or Trillian

[Stark]

JESUS CHRIST.

Read the damn OP! I have already tried 'other MSN-protocol clients' on this machine. They don't work. That was part of isolating the problem to Vista - if other MSN-protocol clients worked, it would be an MSN app problem, not a Vista networking bullshit problem.

I write long, detailed posts about my computer problems to describe the issue and my attempts to isolate/resolve it. This is so people don't waste their time suggesting things I've already done. And yet, every thread I've posted about any problem has had people suggest things that are clearly mentioned in the OP. It's *extraordinarily* frustrating.

At least nobody said 'try safe mode' this time.

BTW, removing, rebooting and reinstalling MSN doesn't work. I even let it sit, and going to their stupid troubleshooting page (where MSN decided everything works fine, which of course I already knew) before trying again uselessly. My original question stands - how do I work with Vista's defined 'networks'? Where's the list, where are the settings?

EDIT - okay, I found a list of my 'networks' under /sharing centre/set location/merge or delete. However, I can't *see* the qualities of the networks, and as far as I can tell the only difference is the name. If I merge them and it's not the solution, I may just be fucking myself up for all time. So if I'm talking 'network locations', what effects do they have, where are their settings, and could they be causing this MSN problem in a 100% functional network?

[Stark]

So a few hours dicking around last night and I've tried all kinds of things: new users, new NICs, removing all security from my network, changing IP, resetting security settings, even using System Restore to before I used this router, etc. Still no good.

I've found some interesting problem reports from the beta, however: the network stack is apparently mysterious and touchy, with some people reporting problems with things like SPI and different routers. Of course I've tried turning all this crap off, turning off the adapter checksums etc, but nothing works. It's starting to look like changing my router = killed the OS, which is pretty fucking sad.

I discovered MSN adds itself silently to the firewall permitted list, with is appalling. Due to reinstalling MSN a few times, I had piles of entries for MSN. Interestingly, I've noticed that during the 'signin' process that never completes, the MSN diagnostics report that I'm 'connected to the MSN messenger service', so perhaps it's the callbacks that are failing somewhere along the line.

EDIT - I've saved myself a reinstall, but not solved the mystery. Using Pidgin (which has better options than Trillian), activating the 'use HTML method' checkbox on the MSN account makes it work. Disabling it breaks it. So... wtf?

[Lisa]

firewall breaking it? that's my guess cause i can't see 3rd party products using settings from msn it's self

[Stark]

firewall breaking it? that's my guess cause i can't see 3rd party products using settings from msn it's self

What this thread needed was another redundant suggestion. It's not like I'd already shut down network security or anything! At least nobody suggested I try rebooting or safe mode?

MSN (and I imagine other MS products) adding themselves silently to the firewall exception list is... well... I have to repeat myself: it's appalling.

Whatever MS wanted to achieve with this 'network location' bullshit, all I've seen so far is 'changing router breaks MSN forever' and 'restarting your computer with a cable connection requires a manual repair every single time because it's too fucking stupid to request a new IP even with DHCP set'. Brilliant!

[Netko]

When it works, it allows you to have granularity in how open your computer is to the others on the network - a pretty useful thing in this day and age of home networks where you want shares and the whole deal, but at the same time use that computer (laptop really) on public wi-fi spots who are god knows how badly configured.

This is highly likely to be redundant, but make sure your network is set to "Home"/"Private" and not "Work" or "Public". Other then that, sorry, no ideas.

[Spyder]

Does Vista have a local DNS resolver cache? Try turning that off.

[Stark]

When it works, it allows you to have granularity in how open your computer is to the others on the network - a pretty useful thing in this day and age of home networks where you want shares and the whole deal, but at the same time use that computer (laptop really) on public wi-fi spots who are god knows how badly configured.

The *idea* is fine, with regards to easy toggling of firewall rules and sharing/discovery. It just seems to be awful when simply changing a router can somehow affect the system in a non-obvious way so that things don't work, ever, even when going back to your original 'location' (by plugging your old router in). A simple option for 'this place is the same place as that' would be fine, or a list that enumerated the difference between your different 'locations' - all I could find in that regard was the 'merge network locations' dialog with no information and the firewall rules themselves which were no help because the problem wasn't the firewall (as turning it off altogether didn't work)

This is highly likely to be redundant, but make sure your network is set to "Home"/"Private" and not "Work" or "Public". Other then that, sorry, no ideas.

Oh yes. I've been into the firewall rules list, and in MSN's case it wouldn't make any difference anyway (the rules are set to 'any'). That's all done without asking the user, of course.

I'm at my parent's place at the moment, and even Pidgin doesn't work here: it gives a send error on every message. It can log in and retrieve contact info, though.

[Netko]

The other stupid idea that I just remembered is maybe doing a system restore to before you changed the router and then trying to configure it more carefully?

In any case, your problem is very weird.