The God-O-Meter

[MKSheppard]

Link

Rudy's a 5; Hillary's a 7, Gravel is 4, Thompson's a 5, McCain is an 8 and topping the list is Obama at 9.

[That NOS Guy]

How the devil is Obama ranking higher the Huckabee? The world wonders.

[MKSheppard]

How the devil is Obama ranking higher the Huckabee? The world wonders.

Well, that's quite easy.

Link provided courtesy of God-O-Meter

Obama: Faith "Plays Every Role"
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October 07, 2007 4:16 PM


ABC News' Sunlen Miller Reports: Amid shouts of "Hallelujah" and "Amen" Senator Barack Obama told the story of the development of his personal faith.

Speaking to a crowd of nearly 5,000 at the Redemption World Outreach Center in Greenville, South Carolina, Obama spoke about being raised without a church. It wasn’t until after college that he got his first blush of organized religion.

"I cast about after college to see how I could participate in building God’s kingdom. Although I didn’t know that’s what it was at the time. I just wanted to create a more just society," the Senator admitted.

Working with churches as a community organizer in the South Side of Chicago, Obama joked that he was constantly asked by the pastors what congregation he was a member of, "I would hem and I would haw and I’d make excuses because I realty didn’t know where I belonged. I didn’t really have a church home."

After three years working with the ministries in the communities Obama says, "I discovered that God works in mysterious ways. I thought I was helping their people out they were helping me. I thought I was coming to save a community but in fact I was the one who was being saved."

It was this relationship that led to the definition of Obama’s personal religion of Christianity, "Through that interaction with the church I accepted Jesus Christ in my life."

The formation of that religion and faith is one that Obama admits he leans on in the challenge of running for president, "Sometimes this is a tough road being in politics, not only what other people can do to you, but to what you can do to yourself."

Saying his faith, on that tough road, plays every role, "It’s what keeps me grounded, what keeps my eyes set on to the greatest heights. What propels me to do what I do and when I get down its what lifts me up."

Pledging to help infuse the government with the same spirit of charity and love that the church brings him, the Senator preached to the South Carolina congregation, "I can be an instrument of God they same way all of you are."

[K. A. Pital]

How is "personal faith" equal to shouts of theocracy? If this is a secularist-to-theocrat distinquisher, it should look on public policy statements on separation of church and state, secular laws, abortion, science, etc.

[dragon]

Ok whats the difference between a secularist and a theocrat.

[K. A. Pital]

Policy direction. A theocrat will seek to abolish church separation from state, install religious education and, ultimately, make the state laws derived from holy writ.

[That NOS Guy]

*snip*

I think Stas has said it best. Expressing his own faith is one thing, calling for it to have a place in the government is an entirely seperate matter. Until we start having quotes like:

"I can be an instrument of God they same way all of you are and I'll establish this country as a christian nation once and for all to do it!"

My theocrat meter isn't picking anything up.

[Metatwaddle]

I have to admit, some of the things Obama has said about religion have made me a bit uncomfortable. Like this speech, for one. He oscillates back and forth quite a bit, though, and sometimes I can't really figure out what his main point is, or if he's just being too subtle for me.

[Covenant]

Obama goes to the same Church I did when I was younger, as an athiest who had to go merely as a family function. His faith, even if it's strong, is in the most liberal church I could possibly imagine while still being Christian. I would consider that a definately favorable thing. It's one of these "lesser of two evils" sort of thing, but it's such a massive difference in scale that it's definately much safer and less offensive. I wouldn't consider it a benefit, but I don't think he or Hillary would be likely to justify things based on faith.

[Mayabird]

I suspect pretty strongly that Obama's not actually that religious, but he's doing this big act because atheists/secular-types aren't very electable. You have to be religious and have it on your sleeve to have a chance, or so the current perception is.

For instance, the choice of church. He could be Unitarian, but everyone knows that's just a code for "Atheist." Before that Californian representative came out of the non-religious closet, he called himself Unitarian. There are a few others in the House o' Reps that say that too, and you can bet your shiny pennies they're atheist/agnostic/secular. The next thing up is the United Church of Christ. It's got the magic Jesus name in it and looks nice and respectable while being very much not evangelical nuttiness.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I have to admit, some of the things Obama has said about religion have made me a bit uncomfortable. Like this speech, for one. He oscillates back and forth quite a bit, though, and sometimes I can't really figure out what his main point is, or if he's just being too subtle for me.

From what I got he seemed to be talking about using religion as a tool to motivate change which all can agree upon being beneficial. He clearly espouses the seperation of church and state in the speech. He's not talking about religion being his guide but a guide combined with personal morality.

This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

For one, they need to understand the critical role that the separation of church and state has played in preserving not only our democracy, but the robustness of our religious practice. Folks tend to forget that during our founding, it wasn't the atheists or the civil libertarians who were the most effective champions of the First Amendment. It was the persecuted minorities, it was Baptists like John Leland who didn't want the established churches to impose their views on folks who were getting happy out in the fields and teaching the scripture to slaves. It was the forbearers of the evangelicals who were the most adamant about not mingling government with religious, because they did not want state-sponsored religion hindering their ability to practice their faith as they understood it.

That's just some of the passages that show he's not all up in the 'Religion' grill. It pisses me off how block headed are sometimes on both sides, secularism, and religious folk who see one thing they don't agree with and bristle. Believe in god, you're an idiot who refuses to look at the facts. Don't believe in god, unrighteous heathen without morals. Agree to disagree, work on what both see needs to be fixed and deal with that, the other shit can get taken care of when half the country isn't in debt and banks are about to tank because they give out loans too freely and expect the Fed to bail them out EVERY time.

Sorry for the rant, but Barack is the first political leader I've seen EVER who I've ever seen and said "You know what, that dude should be in the white house."

[Metatwaddle]

For instance, the choice of church. He could be Unitarian, but everyone knows that's just a code for "Atheist." Before that Californian representative came out of the non-religious closet, he called himself Unitarian. There are a few others in the House o' Reps that say that too, and you can bet your shiny pennies they're atheist/agnostic/secular.

Uh... that hasn't been my experience. I don't know much about the Unitarian church as a whole, but based on joint meetings between the Unitarian and secular student groups (mine's the secular one), there are definitely some differences in the way they think. On the whole the Unitarians seemed to be, if not religious, then definitely spiritual. Most of the ones I met believed that you could find the truth about these spiritual/religious matters by identifying what makes you feel good. While atheists and agnostics seem to hear "right" and equate it with absolute truth and the idea that the Abrahamic God cannot both exist and not exist, they equated "right" with "what feels right" and "what is right for you". I was happy to find that most of them didn't believe in the afterlife, although one had this crazy-ass idea about our souls being like strings that were vibrating, sometimes in resonance with the universe and sometimes out of resonance, and when you die you're really in resonance with the universe (like the Buddhist Nirvana, I guess). It was a very weird cross between Buddhism and string theory.

I also know a Unitarian minister who is a very nice and liberal person who once gave my dad a Darwin fish bumper sticker. But she has fasted in order to try to end the war in Iraq - a move that no atheist would be likely to make because we don't see a causal connection there.

That's not to say that I wouldn't elect a Unitarian before any type of Christian, all else being equal, but it's not the same thing as atheism or even agnosticism.

[Mayabird]

Discombobulated, you're talking about actual Unitarians. I'm talking about politicians. Politicians who want to get elected typically can't go around telling people what they really thing about religion, so if you absolutely must play pretend but can't stand a more Jesus-oriented church, you call yourself Unitarian.


While I'm here, the ad at the bottom is cracking me up. It's a McCain Courageous Service (TM) video.