Why Does England want to join the EU

[Azeron]

You know, as much sense as it makes to join a bigger group for more powerr, leverage and such, why the hell does England Want to join the EU?

Who in thier right mind would want to live in Community where the french are a major part of? Do they have some sort of self hatred? So they want to expose themselves to the institionalized insanity that is france?

You know if they really wanted to join a larger union why go jump on to a doomed ship like the EU and instead opt for admittance into the US?

I really can't see any benefit to joining the EU over the US. How can anything good come out of an organization that includes France!!!??

Are you people still smarting over what happened in 1776?

Really I don't get it. What could possess a country to join a Soviet Eunion with the incoptence of the French, the Comprehensiveness of the germans, and the work ethic of the italians.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Boy, do you have a small mind for world politics.

[Mr. B]

Because if they don't the Germans will gain too much influence over the continent.

[Azeron]

Maybe its just me, but every euro I have met so far, hates the EU. My Uncle with his family just came back for a vacatipon in the states with his family, and the only he could talk about was the muck they were trying to turn the continent into.

Sure its getting easier to make a transeuro business these days, but it seems like they are just trying to crush all business in the same sdea of red tape, taxes and regulation.

how in the world they think this union is going to work is beyond me.

[LordShaithis]

It's like asking why Superman is a member of the Justice League, when everyone else is a pussy next to him.

[Azeron]

Hey France is NOT cool enough to be Aquaqman!!!

here is a link that describes my feelings on the subject

http://hometown.aol.com/XPUS/Britain.html

[Crown]

Britain is America's largest trade buddy in Europe, and similarly Britain is the single largest investor in America. Ergo, it's in both Britain's and America's interest to be closely involved with the EU... Do you even begin to comprehend the shear wealth in Europe, I will give you a hint, it's enormous, should Britain not have joined the EU, today it could very much have become the Fortress Europe that so very much gave American government and British governments nightmares in the past.

Stop this unnecessary ill informed bitchin' and moanin' and start thinking. Britain is in the EU to run interference for the US. At the moment the Euro is groosely undervalued, and that's just because France and Germany are behaving like spoiled children.

And as for Italy's work ethic, may I point out that they have one of the top ten economies in the world, without ever having a single government in power for more than 14months at a time since the 70's (or possibly since WII! That's incredible.

And thank you ever soo for telling us about your family that just happened to go and travel there, however from someone who has family actually living in Europe, 2 in Germany, 1 in France, 1 in the UK, 1 in Italy and whole bunch of them in Greece, they actually appreciate the fact that the EU pretty much assures them more peace of mind than not.

[Azeron]

No, the family I was talking about actually lives in England as American expartriots. He was tapped to run the european subsidairy of a very large consuklting firm. He complaims mostly about the french, how thye are hainv to replace most of the France subsidairy with people from belgium. He has almost as much trouble in Italy.

Yes and I have had experience working with Italians who are working in italy. When I was working at IBM in my junior year in college, it was a pain in the ass to get them to do anything, or comply with internal reporting requirements. they have taken procrastination to a new level of art form.

Britian running interference? Why in the world would they sacrafice themselves like that in a pointless gesture of goodwil? Now that doesn;t make any sense. Do they really want to be rukled from brussels by german beaurocrats? Has germany finnally come up with the formula to take over Europe?

Like I was saying before, England is abused in the EU and under appreicated. Where England now shouts to be heard in Brussels, with its allotment of 12 senators and 70 represenatvies in the US congress, it need only whisper in washington to deafen brussels.

Not to mention it would give us a chance to demolish that abomination Europe calls the chunnel

[NecronLord]

1776

Err Wasn't that when the french helped you escape british dominion?

[Next of Kin]

An argument based on such generalizations like "I've talked to alot people in the EU" or "I've been to <put your country here> and they're totaly lazy"...wow, must be an Azeron thread

[Pablo Sanchez]

reopened and bumped to the top.

[Azeron]

An argument based on such generalizations like "I've talked to alot people in the EU" or "I've been to <put your country here> and they're totaly lazy"...wow, must be an Azeron thread

LMAO!! I have never seen such a brilliant summary of my posting style!!

hmm well I have only been to England (vacation) and Italy (Roman studies abroad course) SO the last 1 won't really work well. The english work pretty hard from what I have seen, though they need more than 1 business suit, and clean it regularly. I swer us americans are like those guys in bunny suits who make computer chips for Intel compared to Euros, especially the frnech who pride themselves on body oder.

Anyways, when I was with IBM, I was responsible for collecting info from the pacific rim and western Europe, (including greece), and you know what, stereotypes do really work well when you try to anticipate what they are going to give you, and when, and how proffessionally its done.

I was really surprised when the japs I worked with (via email telephone) behacved like those japs from the 1980's movie "Gung ho".

out of all the countries that gave me trouble, franc was the worst, and italy was a close second. It was a pleasure working with the germans, thorough and maticulous and accurate not to mention on time. England. behaved quite a bit like americans. Spain, somewhat better than italy, and greece, well abotu the same as spain.

Though I think I liked the Japs the best, there work was consistantly the best.

anyhow just some thoughts....

[Master of Ossus]

I have no clue why England wants to join the EU, other than the fact it will slightly raise England's political power (when dealing with issues outside of Europe, for example, in the Middle East).

Incidentally, Switzerland refused to join the EU because the Swiss enjoy a higher quality fo life than their neighbors and didn't want to spend money to help the rest of the EU out. They also didn't give a damn about their political influence outside of Europe (though in Switzerland almost all areas also accept the Euro, along with the Swiss Franc). It would seem to me that England could enjoys a similar position, so to me it makes no sense why they should join the EU.

[Crazy_Vasey]

I'm English. I'd rather cut my left nut off than be part of a european super state.

[Next of Kin]

out of all the countries that gave me trouble, franc was the worst, and italy was a close second

They probably have a "No Village Idiots Allowed" policy!

[msam]

unless i've been living under a rock and having strange hallucinations, the UK is a member of the EU.....you guy are talking about the European Union right?

[Azeron]

on the grand scale of things, it hasn't really accepted the EU. Yes its a member, but really its not yet, not like germany or france. The big test will be whne the Constitutional Conevention is held, and whether england adopts it.

[Azeron]

So I hear someone wants to put forward a serious pro-eu post up on this thread and debate the merits of the EU.

How someone could defend a superstate that provides monthly viagra rations to polititions is beyond me, but if anyone cares to debate the point feel free.

I think this would be an interesting debate.

[Crown]

Britian running interference? Why in the world would they sacrafice themselves like that in a pointless gesture of goodwil? Now that doesn;t make any sense. Do they really want to be rukled from brussels by german beaurocrats? Has germany finnally come up with the formula to take over Europe?

In a word... yes. Britain has feared the invention of a closed state in Europe since before Napoleon. It has taken great lengths to avoid anyone from accomplishing this. I am not saying it's bad or wrong, it just is a statement of fact. The problem of the EU is that collective nations are begining to accomplish Britain's largest nightmare in a peaceful manner, thus leaving Britain no ground for movement.

And just to point out one thing here guys, I am not making any of this shit up. My first post was a direct quote from the speach that the UK ambassador to the US delivered to the UN, to read it for yourselves go to this site;

http://www.ukun.org/xq/asp/SarticleType ... s_show.htm

Hard when some one debates in facts rather than opinion ehh?

Yes and I have had experience working with Italians who are working in italy. When I was working at IBM in my junior year in college, it was a pain in the ass to get them to do anything, or comply with internal reporting requirements. they have taken procrastination to a new level of art form.

And yet they still have one of the biggest economies in the world! Concession accepted.

No, the family I was talking about actually lives in England as American expartriots. He was tapped to run the european subsidairy of a very large consuklting firm. He complaims mostly about the french, how thye are hainv to replace most of the France subsidairy with people from belgium. He has almost as much trouble in Italy.

American expatriots? Well this is a little different from say the millions of European citizens that actually voted to be part of the EU doesn't it?

Personally I don't believe that Britain should or shouldn't be apart of the EU, I mean they have one of the strongest currencies in the world, why would they want to trade down to either the Euro or Dollar is beyond me. However having said that...

Like I was saying before, England is abused in the EU and under appreicated. Where England now shouts to be heard in Brussels, with its allotment of 12 senators and 70 represenatvies in the US congress, it need only whisper in washington to deafen brussels.

Well of course the UK is abused and under appreciated, they are not a member of the EU which has shown and demonstrated to the commitment of it's inception, and yet they are trying to influence it's politics! I don't care who you are tell me if this situation occured in your life, wouldn't you say; 'Shut up or put up!'?

[Crazy_Vasey]

Are you kidding? If we're not a member of the EU then why are we following their stupid fucking rulings and their bleeding heart courts?

We should have told them to take a running jump a long time ago.

[Admiral Piett]

So I hear someone wants to put forward a serious pro-eu post up on this thread and debate the merits of the EU.

How someone could defend a superstate that provides monthly viagra
rations to polititions is beyond me, but if anyone cares to debate the point feel free.

I think this would be an interesting debate.

What do you mean for superstate?
A big state? The US and China are quite big.
About internal differences Switzerland has four languages and is a single state.The US and Canada are different states despite having a common language.So it is not totally unconceivable that the european countries might want to form a federal government despite their differences.
This "big bad superstate" idea is a product of some egocentric anglosaxon
thinkers convinced that the british/american way(small government,low taxes,etc) is the only way to run things and everything else "does not work" or worse it is "communist".And they shout "Ahhhhh the HORROR" at the only mention of the words "welfare state".None of them usually stop to think that for their theories about capitalism Japan should be a third world state.
Speaking about the UK I do not know if it is a wise thing for them to join the EU.Certainly joining the US tout court is not a better idea.
Good reasons to form the EU?
From an economical point of view I think that I should not even start to list them, it suffices to state at least for industrialized countries the bigger is the market the better is.Without counting the benefits of standardization(legal and technological)
Then there are a lot of things that a single state cannot afford such as a decent space program,many scientifical research projects (nuclear fusion etc) and much more.
Then in a globalized world small national states are becoming too small
for many tasks,such as police duties etc.Coordination of many of these activities requires a common government.
Also only the EU as a whole could afford armed forces capable eventually of something beyond the peacekeeping level,should the unfortunate need arise, without bankrupting the national economies.If all this is all too "cold and materialistic" I might add something about some common values in the continental european union.
Is the EU a good idea?For me yes.
Will it become a true federal union?Unfortunately I believe of not,at least not in the next years.Populations are becoming increasingly
sceptical and populist/nationalist/antiimmigrants movements are apparently arising.Criticizing the corrupt(someone would have said plutocratic) eurocrats is a must,even if they are not really more corrupt or inefficient than the majority of the national bureaucrats.
So the reforms to strenghten the EU have come to a full stop or they are brought on mainly by inertia.Expansion is going on for the obvious economical benefits that it will probably bring but in this way the EU will look like more a reinforced free trade area with common standards rather a federal union.
PS
A note about Viagra:the european politicians are not texans billionaires who can afford to buy truckloads of it with the electoral campaign contributions money .

[Azeron]

Crown,
It what reality do you live, in which any statement from the Blair Government could be cinsidered fact, or generally truthful?

People invest in england, becasue of the potential in England, not becasue of the EU. England speaks ther same langauge and precieves the world in roughly the same way America does. Our values are not really that different, and how we deal with out problems isn't either. Thats why we have been working together on nearly everything for the past 120 some odd years.

How many countres have had such a close relationship that has lasted for such a long time. When the US replaced England the worlds greatest power, there was no war or hositility between us. That is a first in the history of mankind. I think that it stems largely about how we view ourselves, as parts of an English Community with about the same objectives in the world, respective to capabilities at the time. when WW2 was going on, the US gathered a huge army on English soil, How many countries would let another nation put an army on its soil willingly, even if its an ally? Not many. Now you are going to let Germany AND france station armies on England Proper? excuse me, but yu have been trying to prevent that for over a thousand years? Do you really think germany and Fracne is really that concerned about the security of England? Do you think that for a second that germany or france is ever going to consider english lives worth as much as thier own?

whats going on here, is that the EU, is a big idea. It sounds nice, everyone plays by the same rules, same currency, laws, customs etc. That sort of awes people into thinking that its a good idea. But what do european countries have in common? the only thing I can think of is borders (and maybe disdain for the french, but thats a universal thing).

when you are forming this EU, it appears to me, that you are not using any system in particular, but an amalgamation of all the systems of europe. Who here from europe or america thinks the French Legal ysstem is fair, where the judge jury and prosecutor are same person? You cna be arrested for having a friend too close to the fringe of the political system regardless of what your own beliefs are. You thinks that a system that has a view like this can be combinied into a system that will produce an ounce of fairness?

Now it has been suggested that italy is a rich counrty, and that Europe is wealthy in gerneal. To dispell that notion, the cold harse relaity is, that if Europe joined the US, the average worker would fall under the poverty line. Now before you get all huffy and puffy about a specific number I am using $23,000 as the poverty line, since there is no single number becasue poverty depends greatly on dependents, so I am using a family with 2.5 kids or a family of 5)
here are some stats on per capita income

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
(all numbers are USD, 2000 est)
Italy - $22,100
Germany - $23,400
France - $24,400
UK - $22,800
US - $36,200

Now just to note, the poorest US state Missispi, has a per capita GDP of about $23,000 (I will find a reference for this later) So as you can see, The average European woker would qualify as poor, as in Missiipi Southern farmer Poor. Many Euro countries are far below the US stats on poverty, adn its really worse, becasue of the highly protectionist markets and barriers to entry for foriegn products, Euro consumers have to pay more for the same products, excluding taxes becasue compaines can milk the consumer since there is fewer choices availiable. So if you took in account that teh dollar goes further in the US, we should readjust euro incomes down significantly.

Euro inability to compete in the mass market volume areas, probably accounts for the way the Euro economies gears up for high tech products and high qulaity products, because the margins for profit are much fatter there and they can;t compete where they are slim and making allot of money involes allot of turnover (the number of times you can sell an item. Like a supermarket where they only make 1-2% on each sale, but if they sekll the same item enough times they can turn that into a hefty profit)

Now the disparity of the incomes between the US and the EU, I beleive are not so much somethign thats so right about the US policies, as much as something thats so wrong In europe. People are the most valueable assets that a country that can ever have. The better the people, coupled with the right kind of regulation will do remarkable things (look at singapore and hong kong).

Now if we fundementally by looking at the numbers of economic performace, we can asume that the economic policies are fundementally bad (not so bad, but bad nontheless), we look at what types of regulations lead to greater poverty, and isolate them, and see how entrenched they are. Looking at england and the progress it has made, and its politcal leanings, at deregulation, and becoming more like the US, could be changed for the better by joining with the US, where our type of regulations lead to greater growth and more prosperity for the little guy workign his heart out in the factory. If England should go for the EU, it will go down the road of greater harmful regulation, taxation harming england for the indefinite future.

Bt furthermore what the numbers suggest about england, is that it is undervalued and undercapitalized, and that by joining the USA it could see substantial growth, by utilizing whsat it alreadyu has, some of the best people in the world in a more effective and enables way. I see 40% growth in the British Economy as a shoe in for the stte. I thin kteh average Englishman could use 40% more pay in his pocket. Thats not even taking into account the synergistic effects of what a merger would do for both of US. It would be a harbinger of doom to the German and French Beaurocrats in Brussels who not so secretly wish to rule England.

Anyone here from england who thinks they don't need 40% more pay?

[Soulman]

American expatriots? Well this is a little different from say the millions of European citizens that actually voted to be part of the EU doesn't it?

Personally I don't believe that Britain should or shouldn't be apart of the EU, I mean they have one of the strongest currencies in the world, why would they want to trade down to either the Euro or Dollar is beyond me. However having said that...

Most countries in the EMU (European Monetary Union) didn't give their people the chance to vote. IIRC neither Germany or France held a referendum on the matter. Polls say the 55% of Germans want to lose the Euro and get the Mark back. The reason why Britain isn't in yet is that we have been promised a referendum that the government can't win. Any attempt to get the British people to join in the near future will fail.

The reason why politicians are for the EU is that if they support it they get chushy jobs for life as commissioners and suchlike.

Joining the Euro would be bad for Britain, the loss of the ability top control of our economy would be devestating. The countries in Europe have very different economies and one interest rate doesn't work.

Oh, and please stop reffering the Britain as England, if any of the Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish are around they will get mad....

[Admiral Piett]

Crown,
It what reality do you live, in which any statement from the Blair Government could be cinsidered fact, or generally truthful?

I concur.But that can be said of all politicians.

People invest in england, becasue of the potential in England, not becasue of the EU. England speaks ther same langauge and precieves the world in roughly the same way America does. Our values are not really that different, and how we deal with out problems isn't either. Thats why we have been working together on nearly everything for the past 120 some odd years.

How many countres have had such a close relationship that has lasted for such a long time. When the US replaced England the worlds greatest power, there was no war or hositility between us. That is a first in the history of mankind. I think that it stems largely about how we view ourselves, as parts of an English Community with about the same objectives in the world, respective to capabilities at the time. when WW2 was going on, the US gathered a huge army on English soil, How many countries would let another nation put an army on its soil willingly, even if its an ally? Not many. Now you are going to let Germany AND france station armies on England Proper? excuse me, but yu have been trying to prevent that for over a thousand years? Do you really think germany and Fracne is really that concerned about the security of England? Do you think that for a second that germany or france is ever going to consider english lives worth as much as thier own?

This is the most nonsensical piece of bullshit I have heard from you so far
aside that bullshit about a protest stamped out by leftist governments with the help of the military.I am glad to inform you that there is a thing called
"NATO".It is a military alliance,and thanks to it the EU is filled with US bases.Also they keep,or at least kept,joint military exercises with substantial deplyment of troops in some member countries.You may argue
that the european countries do not have much choice but not even the UK
had many other options at the time.I sincerely hope that you can understand the reasons by yourself.

whats going on here, is that the EU, is a big idea. It sounds nice, everyone plays by the same rules, same currency, laws, customs etc. That sort of awes people into thinking that its a good idea. But what do european countries have in common? the only thing I can think of is borders (and maybe disdain for the french, but thats a universal thing).

When italy was unified it was pretty much the same.As far as I know even italian was nearly an artificial language imposed by the èlite.And again I point out you Switzerland.

when you are forming this EU, it appears to me, that you are not using any system in particular, but an amalgamation of all the systems of europe. Who here from europe or america thinks the French Legal ysstem is fair, where the judge jury and prosecutor are same person? You cna be arrested for having a friend too close to the fringe of the political system regardless of what your own beliefs are. You thinks that a system that has a view like this can be combinied into a system that will produce an ounce of fairness?

Should we speak about the US where someone can be arrested only because he is an arab,albeit luckily this will cease soon(by the way where do you take that ideas about frenchs being arrested for their political ideology)?Bullshit as usual I would bet.
Jury is one of the worst &£$%& tools used in the judiciary.Personally
I rate it just under the use of torture in questionings and popular election of judges.
I am more than happy to live in a country where such &£$%& is applied only to a portions of the trials.
Of course if you are a member of the Ku Klux Klan or the red brigades you may appreciate it.

Now it has been suggested that italy is a rich counrty, and that Europe is wealthy in gerneal. To dispell that notion, the cold harse relaity is, that if Europe joined the US, the average worker would fall under the poverty line. Now before you get all huffy and puffy about a specific number I am using $23,000 as the poverty line, since there is no single number becasue poverty depends greatly on dependents, so I am using a family with 2.5 kids or a family of 5)
here are some stats on per capita income

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
(all numbers are USD, 2000 est)
Italy - $22,100
Germany - $23,400
France - $24,400
UK - $22,800
US - $36,200

Now just to note, the poorest US state Missispi, has a per capita GDP of about $23,000 (I will find a reference for this later) So as you can see, The average European woker would qualify as poor, as in Missiipi Southern farmer Poor. Many Euro countries are far below the US stats on poverty, adn its really worse, becasue of the highly protectionist markets and barriers to entry for foriegn products, Euro consumers have to pay more for the same products, excluding taxes becasue compaines can milk the consumer since there is fewer choices availiable. So if you took in account that teh dollar goes further in the US, we should readjust euro incomes down significantly.

You are clueless,as usual(no surprise).Italy is in the top ten of world economy and a G8 member.These are facts.
First of all I have already warned you to take official statistcs with the greatest caution.A great portion of italian economy,around the 25% is simply not registered in order to not to pay taxes.In France this percentage should be aroud 10-15%.This counts.
Then many services,sanitation,decent schools etc,are provided by the state
for free or nearly free.This is an important factor when dealing with standards of life.
And poverty is a relative thing.By official statistics probably I am poor or close to it.Yet I am well fed,I can frequent a decent university,I have a decent home and still I am able to save some money.


Euro inability to compete in the mass market volume areas, probably accounts for the way the Euro economies gears up for high tech products and high qulaity products, because the margins for profit are much fatter there and they can;t compete where they are slim and making allot of money involes allot of turnover (the number of times you can sell an item. Like a supermarket where they only make 1-2% on each sale, but if they sekll the same item enough times they can turn that into a hefty profit)

Clueless as usual.What you are saying is true,and only partially,for BOTH the US and the EU.Both are gearing towards high tech,where the US apparently has the prevalence,while however mantaining even some low tech production.Manifacturing of low tech goods is often transferred in the third world where lower wages make it cheaper.By the way India is becoming important in the high tech sector.

Now the disparity of the incomes between the US and the EU, I beleive are not so much somethign thats so right about the US policies, as much as something thats so wrong In europe. People are the most valueable assets that a country that can ever have. The better the people, coupled with the right kind of regulation will do remarkable things (look at singapore and hong kong).

If you exclude the part about the regulation you have written the best explanation for the success of the italian small industries.

Now if we fundementally by looking at the numbers of economic performace, we can asume that the economic policies are fundementally bad (not so bad, but bad nontheless), we look at what types of regulations lead to greater poverty, and isolate them, and see how entrenched they are. Looking at england and the progress it has made, and its politcal leanings, at deregulation, and becoming more like the US, could be changed for the better by joining with the US, where our type of regulations lead to greater growth and more prosperity for the little guy workign his heart out in the factory. If England should go for the EU, it will go down the road of greater harmful regulation, taxation harming england for the indefinite future.

In some sectors deregulation and privatization work.In others,british ralroads for example,it has been a failure.And as far as "the little guy working his heart out in the factory" typically he cannot be described exactly like a deregulation supporter...

Bt furthermore what the numbers suggest about england, is that it is undervalued and undercapitalized, and that by joining the USA it could see substantial growth, by utilizing whsat it alreadyu has, some of the best people in the world in a more effective and enables way. I see 40% growth in the British Economy as a shoe in for the stte. I thin kteh average Englishman could use 40% more pay in his pocket. Thats not even taking into account the synergistic effects of what a merger would do for both of US. It would be a harbinger of doom to the German and French Beaurocrats in Brussels who not so secretly wish to rule England.

Speaking about conspirations...

Anyone here from england who thinks they don't need 40% more pay?

Maybe free beer too... (note, free beer is an expression that is sometimes used by the economists,I am not saying that Her Majesty subjetcs are a bunch of drunkards)

[Azeron]

I concur.But that can be said of all politicians.

I was just objecting to using a speech drafted by the Blair Government being used as "fact".

This is the most nonsensical piece of bullshit I have heard from you so far aside that bullshit about a protest stamped out by leftist governments with the help of the military.I am glad to inform you that there is a thing called "NATO".It is a military alliance,and thanks to it the EU is filled with US bases.Also they keep,or at least kept,joint military exercises with substantial deplyment of troops in some member countries.You may argue that the european countries do not have much choice but not even the UK had many other options at the time.I sincerely hope that you can understand the reasons by yourself.

less than 50 years ago you were killing each other a massive scale as part of fueding that has lasted more than 1000 years in one form or another. In the past 50 years, you have been pitted aganst eastern europe awaiting a bloodfest of epic proportions. In other words you have been at each others throats for as long as can be remebered and becasue of this you have developed into very different civilizations. Its so artificial you have to remind people to be happy about it by naming your EU athem "Joy to the World". Your currency adores no actual places or monuments, not even a single European of note. really a tribute to pointlessness and the meaningless void which the EU inhabits. So you are telling me that in the past 12 years that europe as evolved to the point that they arte going to just give up whatever meaning thier civilization has given them, the propensity for killing each other, and decide to sing thier national "happy song" and move forward in progressive mannert. Excuise while I barf. Anyone who would believe in post modern nationalism is someone who doesn't have any past, thus no idea where they are going. Yes perhaps your politicitions need that viagra to remind them that they are in fact men.(and women).

When italy was unified it was pretty much the same.As far as I know even italian was nearly an artificial language imposed by the èlite.And again I point out you Switzerland.

I would hardly call the rise to nationalism in Italy like how Switzerland exists. They had a shared history of helping each otehr and fighting together to draw upon, not killing eachother. Thats far different then the bonds of killing each otehr europe has gone through. Instead of dealing with your issues and working toigether to eventually have enough cominality to come toether in mutual trust, you have deicded to say "lets forget who we are" and proceeded to castrate yourselves from your nationality to embrace a post modern utopia where the words Germany, Spain, Italy, France, Briton have no meaning. Instead of embracing the differences between yourselves, you have dicided to politically erase them. Perhaps EU really stands for Eunuch Union.

Should we speak about the US where someone can be arrested only because he is an arab,albeit luckily this will cease soon(by the way where do you take that ideas about frenchs being arrested for their political ideology)?Bullshit as usual I would bet.
Jury is one of the worst &£$%& tools used in the judiciary.Personally I rate it just under the use of torture in questionings and popular election of judges. I am more than happy to live in a country where such &£$%& is applied only to a portions of the trials. Of course if you are a member of the Ku Klux Klan or the red brigades you may appreciate it.

Alright if you get arrested in the US, you can forgo your right to a jury trial. Its a choice by the defendent in ther US gaurenteed by the Bill of Rights (not like common law in Europe, with those that even have it). But I think its a great is a that a governemnt cannot charge or convict someone without the authorization of the people.
As for Arabs being arrested, I beleive all of who were arrested, were held on immigration violations, and when found to have no connection, were let go, or sent back home. the few that had a connection were held. I think thats good proceedure. and it was constitutional. France is bad. They stick you in a room for 72 hours and nearly torture you, and you have no right to an attorny during that period. I can only wonder how many innocent people are convicted under such a system.

You are clueless,as usual(no surprise).Italy is in the top ten of world economy and a G8 member.These are facts.
First of all I have already warned you to take official statistcs with the greatest caution.A great portion of italian economy,around the 25% is simply not registered in order to not to pay taxes.In France this percentage should be aroud 10-15%.This counts. Then many services,sanitation,decent schools etc,are provided by the state for free or nearly free.This is an important factor when dealing with standards of life. And poverty is a relative thing.By official statistics probably I am poor or close to it.Yet I am well fed,I can frequent a decent university,I have a decent home and still I am able to save some money.

So what you are saying is that becaue there is a black market, that we should raise income by 10 -15%. I don;t know where you get your figures, but know one knows how big the black market is, which by its nature cloaks itself in secrecy. well ther is a black market in the US, and I heard it esitimated as big as 20%, but am I shifiting any numbers? NO. It simply can;t be proven. You are right, poverty is realtive. If there are allot of poor people in your nation, you don't feel so poor. but don't delude yourself into thinking that anything the government provides is free. It comes out of taxes, which means it probably is costing you more than if you went to go get it yourself by payign for it.

Clueless as usual.What you are saying is true,and only partially,for BOTH the US and the EU.Both are gearing towards high tech,where the US apparently has the prevalence,while however mantaining even some low tech production.Manifacturing of low tech goods is often transferred in the third world where lower wages make it cheaper.By the way India is becoming important in the high tech sector.

Maybe it is also true for the US, but its not nearly a bad as in Europe. All your added costs pile up and make harder to get the product out at the right cost where you have enough people willing and able to buy it. raise cost and you restrict supply making only richer people able to afford things. (like driving a car, a right of the well to do, not joe the factory worke. Yeah thats populistr)

If you exclude the part about the regulation you have written the best explanation for the success of the italian small industries.

What you think that how a business can operate has nothing to do within the regulatory structure it exists in?
"Earth to Admiral Piet: The harder you make it for businesses to do business, the harder it is going to be prodcue things. As regs go up supply goes down"

In some sectors deregulation and privatization work.In others,british ralroads for example,it has been a failure.And as far as "the little guy working his heart out in the factory" typically he cannot be described exactly like a deregulation supporter...

Private business are not gaurenteed to win every time, they are just less taxing on the consumer. They are far more likely to provide serices at prices people can afford because cost containment and getting people to use the serivce is paramount. I na government system, simply providing the service irrespective of cost, is the modis opperendi.

Maybe free beer too... (note, free beer is an expression that is sometimes used by the economists,I am not saying that Her Majesty subjetcs are a bunch of drunkards)

There is nothing free about it. You work and work hard, adn should be paid accordingly to how yur work is worth. Styming the economy through excessive regulation and taxation raises costs and reduces wages. Europe is effectively taking more livable wages away from the peoiple actually working. This is one the greatest taxations that any worker could face, indirect taxation by the unnecessary raising of costs.

In otehr words, to make sure everyone's boat is in the same shape, you sink all of them