Israeli politician- Draft dodgers should be denied rights

[Ace Pace]

Haaretz Link

A new bill to be presented to the Knesset proposes a litany of punishments, including loss of the right to vote or hold a driver's license from citizens who do not serve in the army or perform civil service.

The bill, authored by Labor-party MK Eitan Cabel (Labor) in collaboration with the Defense Ministry and the Israel Defense Forces, will require all citizens, including Arab Israelis, the religious, and those found unfit for military service to at least perform some form of civil service, or face potentially harsh consequences.

Opponents of the bill have called it discriminatory and draconian, while Cabel has said it is the only way to rein in the growing phenomenon of draft-dodging in Israel and to encourage military and national service.
The bill will also include guidelines for punishing refusal to serve. Potential punishments discussed have included loss of the right to vote, to receive a driver's license, or to study medicine or psychology.

"The goal of this law is to make civil service a clear and defined requirement for any youth who does not serve in the military," Cabel stated.

"The proposal is very simple: Whoever is not willing to help carry the burden of securing the state of Israel must help protect the forests, or help senior citizens cross the street," Cabel added.

Cabel added that it his intention for the punishment entailed in the bill to be applied in only the most extreme cases.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak and the human resources branch of the IDF cooperated in the writing of the bill. The Defense Ministry and the army have become worried by draft-dodging as the percentage of youths who perform no service whatsoever rose to 28% of men and 44% of women in the last year.

The largest single group of young Israelis who avoid conscription is comprised of women who claim exemptions on the grounds of being religious. This group makes up 35 percent of all women eligible for the draft.

IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi and Ehud Barak addressed rising draft-dodging in statements made in January, with Ashkenazi saying that serving soldiers must make "shirkers blush with shame."

At a memorial assembly for Haaretz defense editor Ze'ev Schiff in January, Barak said Israel must return to the days when draft dodgers were publicly scorned as carrying "the mark of Cain."

Thoughts?

[Siege]

It strikes me as a bit Starship Troopes-ish, really. It also a harsh measure, but I guess that also depens on what Mr. Cabel thinks qualifies as "the most extreme cases".

[MKSheppard]

Eliminate civil service; what's the point of it anyway? Use the resultant draftee influx to expand IDF for more killing.

[Superman]

And lose the rights to study medicine or psychology? That's kind of... random.

[Shroom Man 777]

Would You Like To Learn More?

[Lord of the Abyss]

It strikes me as stupid, frankly. First, because forcing people to do things tends to result in them doing a bad job.

And second, it will turn an apparently good sized segment of the population that is indifferent to public/military service, and turn them actively hostile instead.

And third, if you start disenfranchising large numbers of people, you create large numbers of people who have much more incentive to use violence in the name of politics; getting people to vote instead of shoot is one of the benefits of democracy. That's not something Israel needs more of.

[CJvR]

Sounds like a way both to boost the manpower pool by harsh meassures against people who simply don't feel like serving while at the same time it is a hard kcick in the nuts to the more rabid religous elements who are to bussy being Jewish to bother with defending Israel and the policys they frequently supports.

What is the difference between a citizen and a civilian? (SST)

[The Grim Squeaker]

Eliminate civil service; what's the point of it anyway? Use the resultant draftee influx to expand IDF for more killing.

It's a bit hard to force Arab or Bedouin citizens to join the army when parts of their clan/extended family is right across the border. (well, you can easily, but it's a PR and moral headache).

I suppose that it's ironic that I'm finally watching Starship Troopers for the first time while reading this story .

Oh, and for the record, I support this movement strongly as long as NO Exceptions means No Exceptions. (I'm volunteering myself).

[Ace Pace]

It strikes me as stupid, frankly. First, because forcing people to do things tends to result in them doing a bad job.

This happens anyway. I'm going to serve, the other Israelies are going to serve(or have served). For a varaiety of reasons. Most people don't serve because they agree with whatever the current policy is, but because it's part of the social contract here(atleast in the seculer world).

Quick note: The Social contract apperantly existing in the religious world is "leech,leech, leech". Disgusting.

And third, if you start disenfranchising large numbers of people, you create large numbers of people who have much more incentive to use violence in the name of politics; getting people to vote instead of shoot is one of the benefits of democracy. That's not something Israel needs more of.

The type of people who draft-dodge here are not the sort of people who are going to pick up guns and shoot up the country. There's a few sorts of people who draft dodge here(I'm excepting physical/mental disabilities):

Religious people, who take the out of studying or out of other outs.
Peaceniks.

The other people who do not serve as a whole are the Arab population, which is exempt, and the Druze and Cherkesim population, which are allowed to serve. If Eyl is around he probably could give a better overview.

People who do not get drafted currently have a choice of whether to preform national service, which is one or two years where you can choose differant types of occupations.

What is the difference between a citizen and a civilian? (SST)

SST?
Civilians can also be simply residents of the country who are not Israelies, such as the thousands of foreign workers here.

Oh, and for the record, I support this movement strongly as long as NO Exceptions means No Exceptions.

Mental disabilities? You argue Autistics, paralyzed people, etc, should just be denied basic rights?

[Faqa]

Oh, HAREDIM?



This has little to no chance of being passed, but if it does.... wow. This is gonna be a HUGE kick in the nuts to the bloodsucking asshole religous sector. They'll have to work for a few years, before returning to the fucking Yeshivot. Which is definitely a good start to removing the religous boot from this country's collective throat.

Thank you, Ace. You just improved my day by about 100%

[The Grim Squeaker]

Mental disabilities? You argue Autistics, paralyzed people, etc, should just be denied basic rights?

You know EXACTLY what I mean. Unless you think that I consider myself a draft dodger .

No social exceptions, mental or physical is fine.

[brianeyci]

Seems stupid. I'm opposed to any expansion of military forces anywhere during peacetime as a matter of principle, expansion meaning more men. With modern technological force multipliers, it should be even easier to defend a country with a small amount of men. The small amount of glee I would get if I was Israeli for religious fucks hauling ass would probably be offset by more militarism, more chance of war, and more chance of me personally entering the military. A lot of people have hidden problems, and as a recruiter once said to me "the military is not for everybody."

Then again I don't live in a country surrounded by enemies and filled with suicide bombers. I would just invent a separate civilian agency responsible for training security guards to watch for suicide bombers. They wouldn't wear IDF uniforms but some kind of civilian police uniform. They would be a totally separate force, clearly marked auxillary for home defense only and basically be glorified rent-a-cops. Meanwhile I would gut the IDF to get rid of undisciplined fucks who like buzzing allied positions, and go on a program of rebuilidng from the ground up to create a professional, largely volunteer force made up of people who stay on beyond the mandatory service. I imagine eighteen year olds fighting grizzled Hezbollah professionals 30+ and I don't like that at all.

The idea that undesirables unfit for real military service can be assigned rear echelon jobs is foreign to me. To me, there should be a very thick line between what is military and what is not and inventing bullshit jobs like helping granny cross the street is retarded and serves only to blur the lines between civilian and military. This can't be good, and must result in more military dick-waiving.

SST is Starship Troopers.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, draft dodging in my country leads you to be locked up in jail for a few years if I recall.

[Ace Pace]

Brian, I think you fundamentally misunderstand what the article means by Civil Service. This is a seperate, non military, program that lets people who, for whatever reason, are not serving in the military to preform some sort of public service. Some people use it to go on and for example, teach in low income areas, other participate in youth organisations which help kids in trouble, etc.
Some use it for bumming a ride off the army.

Then again I don't live in a country surrounded by enemies and filled with suicide bombers. I would just invent a separate civilian agency responsible for training security guards to watch for suicide bombers. They wouldn't wear IDF uniforms but some kind of civilian police uniform. They would be a totally separate force, clearly marked auxillary for home defense only and basically be glorified rent-a-cops.

This already exists, security guards, more properly, lowest wage people who have no other jobs and work 12 hour shifts. Yes, this is stupid and pathetic, but the police is already stretched thin. I could rant for a few pages on the stupid lack of basic investment in this country but I think you can fill the picture in yourself.

[Faqa]

The small amount of glee I would get if I was Israeli for religious fucks hauling ass would probably be offset by more militarism, more chance of war, and more chance of me personally entering the military

You're just not getting this at all, are you?

You entering the military is your DUTY by the laws of this country. Why? For the very good reason that we need a standing army at all times. Israel is a small country, so even all the manpower we can muster is somewhat pathetic compared to any of our surrounding neighbors. The threat of having(not choosing) to use that power is a VERY REAL possibility for us EVERY FUCKING YEAR. Capiche? A volunteer force is by definition smaller than a conscript force, and we have a shortage as it is.

That Haredim and other assorted snivelly fucks out here(DEATH, you know I don't mean you ) don't get that is not really my problem.

The idea that undesirables unfit for real military service can be assigned rear echelon jobs is foreign to me. To me, there should be a very thick line between what is military and what is not and inventing bullshit jobs like helping granny cross the street is retarded and serves only to blur the lines between civilian and military.

Civilian Service is not military service. The point of it is, if you can't or won't serve your country in the military, you'll serve it with social work.

This can't be good, and must result in more military dick-waiving.

This is not SST. The military does not control the country. Nor are you brainwashed by it. The point is to make sure that only those who have fulfilled their obligations have certain rights.

Personally, I'd throw draft-dodgers in jail and tighten the standards, but this is at least a good start.

[Netko]

It actually surprises me, especially in a militarised country such as Israel, that there wasn't mandatory civil service for the various moral objectors (religious, ethnic, etc.) - its a huge incentive to declare yourself as such.

Personally, I think, if you have a conscription system, some kind of disincentive to declaring yourself an objector is practically mandatory for the system to not fall apart. The consciption system was abolished in Croatia since the New Year, however before that, had it not been for my bum shoulders (easy to dislocate) and thus a medical exemption, I would have been forced to choose, after university, from either serving for half a year in the armed forces or from a variety of pretty nasty civil service jobs (retirement home help, hospital help, public kitchens, shelters, etc. - and all that work is the jobs that would have gone to unqualified persons and thus the most shitty jobs like changing dipers of the elderly, moping up puke and other bodily secretions etc.). Sure, some of the dodgers with connections managed to get comfy semi-intellectual jobs in public sector companies, but overall its was a pretty strong incentive to take another look at the military, especially because the military service was shorter and you could usually get military occupations that are appropriate for your skill level and knowledge, especially as you could request re-evaluation any time before you go in (so for instance if you have an IT degree you could relatively easily get a pretty comfy, after basic, service tour of being an signals/IT support NCO or, with some additional commitment, a reserve officer).

So, in general, I agree with those that think this would be an improvement for Israel. While I strongly disagree with many Israeli policies, if there is one country that needs a conscription system, Israel is probably it, so strengthening it would probably be a good thing for it.

[Darth Wong]

Thoughts?

Makes sense to me. You people chose to try and carve out a country in the midst of a shitload of enemies. Therefore, you need to have a militarist police state in order to survive. I can understand that argument, as long as people are honest about it.

[Elfdart]

I'm usually suspicious of any effort to crack down on draft-dodgers, since those who push such measures have one type of shirker in mind, and not (for example) people who use family influence to get REMF positions, which I think is worse than the "hell no, we won't go" crowd and other DFHs.

On the other hand, it would be funny to see Israeli fundies who have such a hardon for Lebensraum having to face the consequences of their own bullshit. Kinda like the fat sissies with asthma in this country who think the Iraq War is great -as long as they don't have to dodge bullets and booby traps.

[brianeyci]

A volunteer force is by definition smaller than a conscript force, and we have a shortage as it is.

Hm. For some reason I had this vision of the IDF as millions of men, one of the largest in the world, and I look up the numbers and only one hundred thousand active duty. Smaller than one fucking Army Group in WWII. Smaller than fucking Korea, and Korea only has one enemy. I don't know how you manage to defend the country with that little men.

Sorry, I was wrong. Bring on the conscripts.

[Kane Starkiller]

With population of 7 million how big of an army can Israel support? Certainly not millions.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I'm usually suspicious of any effort to crack down on draft-dodgers, since those who push such measures have one type of shirker in mind, and not (for example) people who use family influence to get REMF positions, which I think is worse than the "hell no, we won't go" crowd and other DFHs.

On the other hand, it would be funny to see Israeli fundies who have such a hardon for Lebensraum having to face the consequences of their own bullshit. Kinda like the fat sissies with asthma in this country who think the Iraq War is great -as long as they don't have to dodge bullets and booby traps.

Actually, from what I have been reading, the fundies have been the most ready to do their national service, with a good portion of the officer core from the conservative segments.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I'm usually suspicious of any effort to crack down on draft-dodgers, since those who push such measures have one type of shirker in mind, and not (for example) people who use family influence to get REMF positions, which I think is worse than the "hell no, we won't go" crowd and other DFHs.

On the other hand, it would be funny to see Israeli fundies who have such a hardon for Lebensraum having to face the consequences of their own bullshit. Kinda like the fat sissies with asthma in this country who think the Iraq War is great -as long as they don't have to dodge bullets and booby traps.

Actually, from what I have been reading, the fundies have been the most ready to do their national service, with a good portion of the officer core from the conservative segments.

Some Fundies are, and the ones who do volunteer have excellent moral and are the core of a lot of the combat units (As opposed to Kibbutznik people as it was once).
However, that doesn't change the fact that these are only the volunteers, and that the vast majority of Fundies don't do the army. (And it's an easy excuse for anyone to make).

[Ace Pace]

I'm usually suspicious of any effort to crack down on draft-dodgers, since those who push such measures have one type of shirker in mind, and not (for example) people who use family influence to get REMF positions, which I think is worse than the "hell no, we won't go" crowd and other DFHs.

On the other hand, it would be funny to see Israeli fundies who have such a hardon for Lebensraum having to face the consequences of their own bullshit. Kinda like the fat sissies with asthma in this country who think the Iraq War is great -as long as they don't have to dodge bullets and booby traps.

Actually, from what I have been reading, the fundies have been the most ready to do their national service, with a good portion of the officer core from the conservative segments.

There's a differance between Dati leumi, or in english, normal religious, and Haredi, the ultra-orthodox who are breeding like bunnies and leeching money.

The latter have yet to serve in numbers larger then a single regiment thats continually understaffed.

[FTeik]

Only seven million Israelis? I thought there were a few more.

Oh well, in that case they can be relocated to eastern-germany, if things go really down the shitter.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Only seven million Israelis? I thought there were a few more.

Oh well, in that case they can be relocated to eastern-germany, if things go really down the shitter.

It's less actually, there are about a million emigrants from Russia, many of whom aren't jews (I've seen figures in the area of 20%), and a large amount of Arab-Israeli citizens, and over 180,000 Bedouin.
There's only about5-5.4 million Jews in Israel, and that's people who call themselves Jews (Same as people calling themselves Christians in the US ).